| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 21:11 - Feb 27 with 2668 views | exhmrc1 |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:56 - Feb 27 by Lord_Bony |
I think the death in service 600k insurance payout is down to the player not the club.
It costs £150 per season and is open to PFA members (professional football association players) and usually arranged through the club secretary. |
I read on I think the scum mail because the amended Premier league contract hadn't been signed the premier league insurance doesnt come into effect |  | |  |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 21:18 - Feb 27 with 2657 views | Lord_Bony |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 21:11 - Feb 27 by exhmrc1 |
I read on I think the scum mail because the amended Premier league contract hadn't been signed the premier league insurance doesnt come into effect |
That does not make sense.
The player joins the PFA after the contracts are signed. It's down to the player to join this Union. |  |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 12:02 - Feb 28 with 2437 views | bluey_the_blue |
That and the Heil aren't exactly too credible.
I suspect the flight arrangements made by McKay invalidated insurance given the club arranged commercial flight was rejected.
Regardless, let's see what happens. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 12:20 - Feb 28 with 2424 views | theloneranger |
No trace of the body of the pilot David Ibbotson has been found and the search has been called off ...
"Organiser David Mearns said that the "active search" had ended.
The shipwreck hunter, who led the successful search for Sala's body, said the divers had searched "every nook and cranny" of the plane
"Sadly there was absolutely no trace of David, no trace of any clothing, no trace of any of his personal items," said Mr Mearns.
He added: "In terms of the active search, it ended today. But that doesn't mean there isn't a chance that that David's body will still wash ashore."" |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 12:43 - Feb 28 with 2397 views | exhmrc1 |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 12:02 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
That and the Heil aren't exactly too credible.
I suspect the flight arrangements made by McKay invalidated insurance given the club arranged commercial flight was rejected.
Regardless, let's see what happens. |
The statements from your club are also referring to the premier league and the form being returned. This was in the article you referred to the previous thread.
Whether this is right or wrong it is clear from Warnock and Choo's statements they considered Sala a Cardiff City player so have they been lying to your fans. I suspect this is very close to the mark that your club are trying to use the premier league issue to renege on the transfer agreement signed by Nantes, Sala and your club. There clearly was a contract lodged with the FAW and FIFA. The issue between Cardiff and the premier league over his registration is a different matter.
As far as the flight arranged by Mckay these are fairly common. Warnock used one on 2 separate occasions and Bafe Gomis used them with us. The pilot had a pilot's licence but not one for commercial purposes. What is meant be that is unclear. Does it mean he couldnt fly say BA flights or does it prevent him taking people on parachute jumps. If he receives no money then it isnt commercial. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 14:52 - Feb 28 with 2336 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 12:43 - Feb 28 by exhmrc1 |
The statements from your club are also referring to the premier league and the form being returned. This was in the article you referred to the previous thread.
Whether this is right or wrong it is clear from Warnock and Choo's statements they considered Sala a Cardiff City player so have they been lying to your fans. I suspect this is very close to the mark that your club are trying to use the premier league issue to renege on the transfer agreement signed by Nantes, Sala and your club. There clearly was a contract lodged with the FAW and FIFA. The issue between Cardiff and the premier league over his registration is a different matter.
As far as the flight arranged by Mckay these are fairly common. Warnock used one on 2 separate occasions and Bafe Gomis used them with us. The pilot had a pilot's licence but not one for commercial purposes. What is meant be that is unclear. Does it mean he couldnt fly say BA flights or does it prevent him taking people on parachute jumps. If he receives no money then it isnt commercial. |
Plenty of clubs unveil players before paperwork fully signed.
Again, you're referring to "registration", a misnomer. The issue is the contract between club and player which had to be lodged and approved by Prem league.
The pilot had no commerical licence. Meant could not accept payment, could split expenses with passenger and had to have a reason to have been there. Given his debts, CCJs would have to be gullible to believe he wasn't operating an illegal commercial flight - which is common as the authorities seem to have heads up arse. Ibbotson had zero reason to be in Nantes whatsoever other than to fly Sala back.
Given his licence type, he had no valid grounds to be flying at night in those weather conditions especially given he had to fly purely on instruments - something not licenced for.
Let's wait for more information to emerge and FIFA to rule.
EDIT: With regards to previous flights, none involved that type of plane. Indeed, the search investigator said there's no way he'd make the trip in the plane type used.
Based upon that, I'd say any insurance would be fvcked by events completely outside our hands. [Post edited 28 Feb 2019 14:54]
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 15:48 - Feb 28 with 2284 views | ploppy |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 14:52 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
Plenty of clubs unveil players before paperwork fully signed.
Again, you're referring to "registration", a misnomer. The issue is the contract between club and player which had to be lodged and approved by Prem league.
The pilot had no commerical licence. Meant could not accept payment, could split expenses with passenger and had to have a reason to have been there. Given his debts, CCJs would have to be gullible to believe he wasn't operating an illegal commercial flight - which is common as the authorities seem to have heads up arse. Ibbotson had zero reason to be in Nantes whatsoever other than to fly Sala back.
Given his licence type, he had no valid grounds to be flying at night in those weather conditions especially given he had to fly purely on instruments - something not licenced for.
Let's wait for more information to emerge and FIFA to rule.
EDIT: With regards to previous flights, none involved that type of plane. Indeed, the search investigator said there's no way he'd make the trip in the plane type used.
Based upon that, I'd say any insurance would be fvcked by events completely outside our hands. [Post edited 28 Feb 2019 14:54]
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I thought the pilot was only licensed to fly on visuals (not instruments) which was why he shouldn't have been flying at night, or in bad weather. Or have I misunderstood? | | | |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 16:06 - Feb 28 with 2265 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 15:48 - Feb 28 by ploppy |
I thought the pilot was only licensed to fly on visuals (not instruments) which was why he shouldn't have been flying at night, or in bad weather. Or have I misunderstood? |
That's what seems to have come out.
If true, then Ibbotson deserves to rot in hell, he's responsible for Sala's death. A passenger like Sala put his life entirely into Ibbotson's hands; Ibbotson had ultimate responsibility to Sala's safety. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 16:43 - Feb 28 with 2231 views | Lord_Bony |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 16:06 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
That's what seems to have come out.
If true, then Ibbotson deserves to rot in hell, he's responsible for Sala's death. A passenger like Sala put his life entirely into Ibbotson's hands; Ibbotson had ultimate responsibility to Sala's safety. |
Shouldn't the people who organised the flight,made the relevant checks first...especially considering the precious cargo onboard? | |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:00 - Feb 28 with 2194 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 16:43 - Feb 28 by Lord_Bony |
Shouldn't the people who organised the flight,made the relevant checks first...especially considering the precious cargo onboard? |
Indeed, they are legally culpable.
At the end of the day, the final responsibility always lies with the pilot. He knew the flight plan, he had the detailed weather reports. He knew the flight was at best risky - had the power to make the final call on flying or not. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:26 - Feb 28 with 2160 views | theloneranger |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 15:48 - Feb 28 by ploppy |
I thought the pilot was only licensed to fly on visuals (not instruments) which was why he shouldn't have been flying at night, or in bad weather. Or have I misunderstood? |
I can't find anywhere where it states he wasn't licensed to fly IFR/IFR, but he is alleged to have written the following ...
"Mr Ibbotson, 59, had written he was “a bit rusty with the ILS (Instrument Landing System)” on Facebook after arriving at the airport.
He later wrote: “Was not to (sic) bad when I got there but I’m a bit rusty with the ils, in France now.”
A friend replied: “Rusty with the ILS?! I can’t believe that!”
Mr Ibbotson added: “You wanna bet, a little on the high side hehe, better than on the low side.”
Sadly, an accident waiting to happen!!
EDIT ...
I've just found this, a speculation concerning his licencing ...
**Juan Arturo del Azar, a private jet pilot who has operated on the same route at least 400 times, told Argentinian daily Clarin: “As in any investigation we can only speculate on what has been published until there’s official information.
“But everything so far indicates there was an operation that should never have existed and a pilot who was not qualified to fly in the conditions there were that night.
“What we know is that the pilot ‘requested descent’ on passing Guersey.
“I’ve flown that same route at least 400 times. It’s a crossing over water.”
He added: “The reason for requesting a descent, according to the aviation community, was because the plane was accumulating ice. But the information we have now is that this pilot was not authorised to fly with instruments.
“If that is the case, it could be a lot simpler. It could simply be a case of being in a cloud, not knowing how to fly with instruments and suffering what is called spatial disorientation.
“There’s a well-known incident, that of John Kennedy Jr, in which that happened. When a person is in a cloud and looks out of the window, they are disorientated. Then they have to know how to fly the plane looking just at the instruments.
“If the information is correct and this pilot wasn’t qualified to fly with instruments, yes, there could have been ice. But it is much more likely that there has been a problem of spatial disorientation.”** [Post edited 28 Feb 2019 17:36]
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| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:58 - Feb 28 with 2129 views | Lord_Bony |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:26 - Feb 28 by theloneranger |
I can't find anywhere where it states he wasn't licensed to fly IFR/IFR, but he is alleged to have written the following ...
"Mr Ibbotson, 59, had written he was “a bit rusty with the ILS (Instrument Landing System)” on Facebook after arriving at the airport.
He later wrote: “Was not to (sic) bad when I got there but I’m a bit rusty with the ils, in France now.”
A friend replied: “Rusty with the ILS?! I can’t believe that!”
Mr Ibbotson added: “You wanna bet, a little on the high side hehe, better than on the low side.”
Sadly, an accident waiting to happen!!
EDIT ...
I've just found this, a speculation concerning his licencing ...
**Juan Arturo del Azar, a private jet pilot who has operated on the same route at least 400 times, told Argentinian daily Clarin: “As in any investigation we can only speculate on what has been published until there’s official information.
“But everything so far indicates there was an operation that should never have existed and a pilot who was not qualified to fly in the conditions there were that night.
“What we know is that the pilot ‘requested descent’ on passing Guersey.
“I’ve flown that same route at least 400 times. It’s a crossing over water.”
He added: “The reason for requesting a descent, according to the aviation community, was because the plane was accumulating ice. But the information we have now is that this pilot was not authorised to fly with instruments.
“If that is the case, it could be a lot simpler. It could simply be a case of being in a cloud, not knowing how to fly with instruments and suffering what is called spatial disorientation.
“There’s a well-known incident, that of John Kennedy Jr, in which that happened. When a person is in a cloud and looks out of the window, they are disorientated. Then they have to know how to fly the plane looking just at the instruments.
“If the information is correct and this pilot wasn’t qualified to fly with instruments, yes, there could have been ice. But it is much more likely that there has been a problem of spatial disorientation.”** [Post edited 28 Feb 2019 17:36]
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Bloody hell. Reading the above makes you realise how incompetent this guy was. He even got the numbers or the aircraft I.D.wrong when logging in.
I've taken a few basic flying lessons myself and even I could easily use the artificial horizon,bank and turn meter and altimeter to keep the thing straight and level...it's pretty basic stuff,I'm nowhere near qualified.
How the hell Cardiff City didn't check this guy out before putting Sala on I don't know. | |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:59 - Feb 28 with 2127 views | exhmrc1 |
your right the responsibility lies with the PILOT not Nantes or Mckay. A contract had been made between your club, Sala and Nantes AND been submitted to FAW and FIFA. Time to PAY UP. Tan tried to take on agents over Malky. Guess what it failed. He has a hate of agents from those days. Hopefully FIFA have the courage to dock you points as some expert has said. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 18:01 - Feb 28 with 2123 views | ploppy |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:26 - Feb 28 by theloneranger |
I can't find anywhere where it states he wasn't licensed to fly IFR/IFR, but he is alleged to have written the following ...
"Mr Ibbotson, 59, had written he was “a bit rusty with the ILS (Instrument Landing System)” on Facebook after arriving at the airport.
He later wrote: “Was not to (sic) bad when I got there but I’m a bit rusty with the ils, in France now.”
A friend replied: “Rusty with the ILS?! I can’t believe that!”
Mr Ibbotson added: “You wanna bet, a little on the high side hehe, better than on the low side.”
Sadly, an accident waiting to happen!!
EDIT ...
I've just found this, a speculation concerning his licencing ...
**Juan Arturo del Azar, a private jet pilot who has operated on the same route at least 400 times, told Argentinian daily Clarin: “As in any investigation we can only speculate on what has been published until there’s official information.
“But everything so far indicates there was an operation that should never have existed and a pilot who was not qualified to fly in the conditions there were that night.
“What we know is that the pilot ‘requested descent’ on passing Guersey.
“I’ve flown that same route at least 400 times. It’s a crossing over water.”
He added: “The reason for requesting a descent, according to the aviation community, was because the plane was accumulating ice. But the information we have now is that this pilot was not authorised to fly with instruments.
“If that is the case, it could be a lot simpler. It could simply be a case of being in a cloud, not knowing how to fly with instruments and suffering what is called spatial disorientation.
“There’s a well-known incident, that of John Kennedy Jr, in which that happened. When a person is in a cloud and looks out of the window, they are disorientated. Then they have to know how to fly the plane looking just at the instruments.
“If the information is correct and this pilot wasn’t qualified to fly with instruments, yes, there could have been ice. But it is much more likely that there has been a problem of spatial disorientation.”** [Post edited 28 Feb 2019 17:36]
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I honestly can't remember where I read it, or if I've misunderstood but I've read lots recently. One of the articles is this from WO
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/live-updates-emiliano
which talks about VFR.
I'm no expert though, not even an amateur. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:22 - Feb 28 with 2044 views | exhmrc1 |
There are 2 types of contract regarding employment/self employment. A contract of employment exists if someone is employed and a contract of services if someone is self employed. The key difference is whether a master/servant relationship applies and it is highly unlikely one would apply in this case. Therefore this would be a contract for services. McKay would have probably hired a company to pick up Sala from Nantes to Cardiff. He would have had no say which plane or pilot was undertaking this journey. Even had he booked this pilot to undertake the journey he would not have specified any particular plane. That would have been an issue for the pilot or company owning the plane. He wouldnt have been expected to carry out checks. It is like saying every time we go on a bus, train or taxi we should ask whether the driver has a valid driving licence. We would assume they have and that is what Mckay would have done. None of this has anything to do with Nantes. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:41 - Feb 28 with 2014 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 17:58 - Feb 28 by Lord_Bony |
Bloody hell. Reading the above makes you realise how incompetent this guy was. He even got the numbers or the aircraft I.D.wrong when logging in.
I've taken a few basic flying lessons myself and even I could easily use the artificial horizon,bank and turn meter and altimeter to keep the thing straight and level...it's pretty basic stuff,I'm nowhere near qualified.
How the hell Cardiff City didn't check this guy out before putting Sala on I don't know. |
We didn't organise the flight.
We arranged a commercial flight with BA. Sala decided he wanted to spend more time at Nantes with his mates, Mckay organised the flight. Flight got delayed till the evening.
We played zero part in the flight he took. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:49 - Feb 28 with 1996 views | Lord_Bony |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:41 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
We didn't organise the flight.
We arranged a commercial flight with BA. Sala decided he wanted to spend more time at Nantes with his mates, Mckay organised the flight. Flight got delayed till the evening.
We played zero part in the flight he took. |
Fair nuff.
Got the impression he was used from time to time flying McKay to Nantes. | |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:56 - Feb 28 with 1979 views | exhmrc1 |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:41 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
We didn't organise the flight.
We arranged a commercial flight with BA. Sala decided he wanted to spend more time at Nantes with his mates, Mckay organised the flight. Flight got delayed till the evening.
We played zero part in the flight he took. |
I totally accept you took no part in hiring the plane other than one of your employees suggested it to Sala. However that has nothing to do with Nantes either. It is a tragic accident where neither club played any part and Mckay did nothing wrong. He hired a plane and pilot expecting that they would bring Sala here as has happened with so many others. You wouldnt expect him to check the pilots licence just like you wouldnt look at the drivers licence if you get in a taxi. The fault is either going to lie with the pilot for errors made or the owners if there were mechanical difficulties. This doesnt alter you made a contract and you should pay up. You can then claim on your insurance or sue whoever is deemed responsible and that very much looks like the pilot. If it was the pilot you would end up getting nothing as it appears he was already in debt. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:18 - Feb 28 with 1943 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 19:56 - Feb 28 by exhmrc1 |
I totally accept you took no part in hiring the plane other than one of your employees suggested it to Sala. However that has nothing to do with Nantes either. It is a tragic accident where neither club played any part and Mckay did nothing wrong. He hired a plane and pilot expecting that they would bring Sala here as has happened with so many others. You wouldnt expect him to check the pilots licence just like you wouldnt look at the drivers licence if you get in a taxi. The fault is either going to lie with the pilot for errors made or the owners if there were mechanical difficulties. This doesnt alter you made a contract and you should pay up. You can then claim on your insurance or sue whoever is deemed responsible and that very much looks like the pilot. If it was the pilot you would end up getting nothing as it appears he was already in debt. |
You hire a taxi for an important client of yours one evening.
Could be a taxi with licence number displayed, driver id available, fully licenced etc or it could be a dodgy guy with money problems, unable to drive correctly at night.
Not your responsiblity at all if anything happens - of course the end fault lies with the pilot, but you arranged the transport, you have a degree of culpability.
McKay did nothing wrong? "Yeah mate, I'll get a plane sorted for you, a mate can do it". As soon as McKay, involved in the deal despite not being an agent, engaged by Nantes organised things, he bears the overall responsibility for ensuring the plane - so too do Nantes to a degree.
Again, until the legal advice the club have received becomes apparent, who knows what the club position is. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:27 - Feb 28 with 1931 views | plasjack |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:18 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
You hire a taxi for an important client of yours one evening.
Could be a taxi with licence number displayed, driver id available, fully licenced etc or it could be a dodgy guy with money problems, unable to drive correctly at night.
Not your responsiblity at all if anything happens - of course the end fault lies with the pilot, but you arranged the transport, you have a degree of culpability.
McKay did nothing wrong? "Yeah mate, I'll get a plane sorted for you, a mate can do it". As soon as McKay, involved in the deal despite not being an agent, engaged by Nantes organised things, he bears the overall responsibility for ensuring the plane - so too do Nantes to a degree.
Again, until the legal advice the club have received becomes apparent, who knows what the club position is. |
FIFA will find that Nantes will be owed the money, and no amount of delay will alter the fact.
The sooner the hoofball club pay up the better. |  | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:30 - Feb 28 with 1921 views | Highjack |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:18 - Feb 28 by bluey_the_blue |
You hire a taxi for an important client of yours one evening.
Could be a taxi with licence number displayed, driver id available, fully licenced etc or it could be a dodgy guy with money problems, unable to drive correctly at night.
Not your responsiblity at all if anything happens - of course the end fault lies with the pilot, but you arranged the transport, you have a degree of culpability.
McKay did nothing wrong? "Yeah mate, I'll get a plane sorted for you, a mate can do it". As soon as McKay, involved in the deal despite not being an agent, engaged by Nantes organised things, he bears the overall responsibility for ensuring the plane - so too do Nantes to a degree.
Again, until the legal advice the club have received becomes apparent, who knows what the club position is. |
The fault may not lie with the pilot. It could have been a mechanical fault. But it seems this Ibbotson fella is being blamed by all sides of the debate without any evidence so far of wrongdoing. |  |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:34 - Feb 28 with 1910 views | theloneranger |
I think the main problem lies with David Henderson the original experienced pilot booked to take Sala to Cardiff. He was the person who offloaded the flight to Ibbotson.
David Henderson even paid for Ibbotson's hotel in France, and for the flight itself.
Henderson's details were then given to officials at Nantes-Atlantique airport, leading to fears that he had been piloting the doomed flight.
If anybody should have been checking Ibbotson's flying licence and qualifications to take the flight, it was Henderson. | |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:42 - Feb 28 with 1892 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:30 - Feb 28 by Highjack |
The fault may not lie with the pilot. It could have been a mechanical fault. But it seems this Ibbotson fella is being blamed by all sides of the debate without any evidence so far of wrongdoing. |
It could have been a mechanical fault.
Given the evidence of Ibbotson's qualification to fly at night, given the search investigator said he's not use that plane type for this kind of trip, given the weather conditions and the actual movements of the plane, balance of probability tends to go against that. | | | |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:44 - Feb 28 with 1884 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Sala aircrash,a catalogue of errors on 20:34 - Feb 28 by theloneranger |
I think the main problem lies with David Henderson the original experienced pilot booked to take Sala to Cardiff. He was the person who offloaded the flight to Ibbotson.
David Henderson even paid for Ibbotson's hotel in France, and for the flight itself.
Henderson's details were then given to officials at Nantes-Atlantique airport, leading to fears that he had been piloting the doomed flight.
If anybody should have been checking Ibbotson's flying licence and qualifications to take the flight, it was Henderson. |
And by extension, Mckay bears some responsibility.
Given Mckays's self serving interview where he outright lies, you have to assume he knows the sh*t he's in. | | | |
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