| Measles and vaccination 09:24 - Jul 21 with 3273 views | saint901 |
Last year Canada suffered a measles outbreak sufficient to place it into the top ten countries for such outbreaks.
The source of the outbreak was traced to a single individual who attended a Mennonite event. The Mennonite community is one which embraces a philosophy in which some aspects of modern life and science are given up in favour of a more simple regimen.
If we accept that members of such a community are intelligent and aware that a reduced use of vaccines exposes them and their children to otherwise preventable diseases (some of which are very dangerous), then are members of the wider community equally able to refuse to be in shared spaces with the unvaccinated ?
The measles vaccines have been around since the early 1960's. Before the vaccine became a mass exercise, it's estimated that some 2 million people - mainly children - dies each year from measles. There ahs been a slight uptick in recorded cases in recent year as vaccine hesitancy spreads.
Herd immunity from measles requires a vaccine take up of around 95% of the population. Canada and the UK (and the US) fall short of that.
Given the proven safety record of measles (I'm not saying that in some very rare cases the vaccine has not had side effects and I'm not getting into the nonsense around the MMR version) is there a case for legislating here to ensure the majority of the population is protected? |  | | |  |
| Measles and vaccination on 10:13 - Jul 24 with 999 views | saint901 |
Thank you for the non reply (again) Mr Jelly.
You are correct that I am in a loop. It starts with reading a statement - checking its references and sources - deciding if that evidence has any weight and then deciding if I believe all/some/none of the statement. I'm sorry if that offends.
I suggest you are in a loop. Yours is that having arrived at a certain position you need to justify it but in the absence of any proof you think it reasonable to assume or extrapolate based on the conclusion you have already reached. I suggest that this is illogical.
It does not help of course that when asked for proof or evidence, your response is to deflect, distract, disparage and insult. I suggest that this is childish (and boring).
The latter response is straight out of the conspiracy theorists playbook of course. A playbook happily seized upon by (for example) the MAGA supporters who have gone a little further and added "attack" to any rebuttal of their position.
Regardless. If you had a baby - who are susceptible to the worse effects of measles - and you knew that an unvaccinated person would be within infection distance of said baby, would you be justified in refusing that unvaccinated person permission to be within that distance (if you had that power) or be willing to accept a restriction in your life to suit the preferences of that unvaccinated person? | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 12:16 - Jul 24 with 951 views | mushinexile |
| Measles and vaccination on 10:13 - Jul 24 by saint901 |
Thank you for the non reply (again) Mr Jelly.
You are correct that I am in a loop. It starts with reading a statement - checking its references and sources - deciding if that evidence has any weight and then deciding if I believe all/some/none of the statement. I'm sorry if that offends.
I suggest you are in a loop. Yours is that having arrived at a certain position you need to justify it but in the absence of any proof you think it reasonable to assume or extrapolate based on the conclusion you have already reached. I suggest that this is illogical.
It does not help of course that when asked for proof or evidence, your response is to deflect, distract, disparage and insult. I suggest that this is childish (and boring).
The latter response is straight out of the conspiracy theorists playbook of course. A playbook happily seized upon by (for example) the MAGA supporters who have gone a little further and added "attack" to any rebuttal of their position.
Regardless. If you had a baby - who are susceptible to the worse effects of measles - and you knew that an unvaccinated person would be within infection distance of said baby, would you be justified in refusing that unvaccinated person permission to be within that distance (if you had that power) or be willing to accept a restriction in your life to suit the preferences of that unvaccinated person? |
Saint 901. He isn't listening to you because he is a high functioning imbecile.
We are not listening to him either because we are rational human beings.
Don't be "triggered" by him/her/it. Just remember Mark Twain's doctrine: "Never argue with a fool. A passer by may not be able to tell the difference." | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 13:42 - Jul 24 with 910 views | Jellybaby |
| Measles and vaccination on 10:13 - Jul 24 by saint901 |
Thank you for the non reply (again) Mr Jelly.
You are correct that I am in a loop. It starts with reading a statement - checking its references and sources - deciding if that evidence has any weight and then deciding if I believe all/some/none of the statement. I'm sorry if that offends.
I suggest you are in a loop. Yours is that having arrived at a certain position you need to justify it but in the absence of any proof you think it reasonable to assume or extrapolate based on the conclusion you have already reached. I suggest that this is illogical.
It does not help of course that when asked for proof or evidence, your response is to deflect, distract, disparage and insult. I suggest that this is childish (and boring).
The latter response is straight out of the conspiracy theorists playbook of course. A playbook happily seized upon by (for example) the MAGA supporters who have gone a little further and added "attack" to any rebuttal of their position.
Regardless. If you had a baby - who are susceptible to the worse effects of measles - and you knew that an unvaccinated person would be within infection distance of said baby, would you be justified in refusing that unvaccinated person permission to be within that distance (if you had that power) or be willing to accept a restriction in your life to suit the preferences of that unvaccinated person? |
901, I am not offended by you in the slightest, I rather like you. I can indulge you by (trying to) answer your question yet again, but I don't think you have ears to hear and there was that time where you were so offended that you refused to talk to me, until you came round again, lol., so it can be tricky with sensitive souls.
I will try one more time - We live in a hierarchical structured society. The likes of you and me may be fairly near the bottom of the pyramid, but if you keep going up that pyramid and you can do this by following who is funding who, then you get to a much smaller group of people, they hold the purse strings, so they have power, you keep going until you are left with a cabal of powerful people or a series of competing cabals. This is imo wholly logical. The other aspect is spiritual, Good vs evil, which again is completely logical, as we know both exist.
I think we have all arrived at certain positions 901, I don't need to justify my position to you or anyone and likewise in reverse you neither.
If I have insulted you 901, I apologize, I am invariably being playful, but maybe you are not picking up on the tone.
MAGA supporters and what they think is of no concern to me, you know I have said many times that Trump is a bad actor (the Epstein case has only made me say I told you so, to those who considered him a saviour). But are you calling all of them conspiracy theorists, that's quite a few??
Your last point shows how fear is used to control people. Bodily autonomy is enshrined in Geneva Convention law, but you can see how this could be undone for "the greater good" and enforced vaccinations become the norm and then you have a two tier society and a major problem.
I did not refuse the convid jab to annoy people, I did it because I did not trust it, I did not know the ingredients, I couldn't understand why the dose was the same regardless of size of recipient, the long term side effects, why it was done in lockstep and because people in power do not always have our best interests at heart. I don't regret making that decision and I have yet to meet anyone who does, if that puts me in a gulag one day or makes me unable to buy and sell via digital id then so be it.
Have a good day 901 | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Measles and vaccination on 12:02 - Jul 25 with 832 views | arfurdent |
Puts me in mind of the propaganda pushed out by Government officials over Mad Cow Disease.
Oh the joyful sight of Selwyn Gummer and his kids eating beefburgurs to show there was nothing to worry about. Mind you it would be difficult to tell if a politician actually got Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD)
There are still a lot of cases appearing. A neighbour developed it, poor man, totally destroyed his life and marriage |  |
| So Long and Thanks for all the Fish |
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| Measles and vaccination on 12:31 - Jul 25 with 819 views | 1885_SFC |
Reminds me of that old joke...
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| Measles and vaccination on 17:14 - Jul 26 with 727 views | kentsouthampton |
Jelly's missus......
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| Measles and vaccination on 18:58 - Jul 26 with 687 views | Jellybaby |
| Measles and vaccination on 17:14 - Jul 26 by kentsouthampton |
Jelly's missus......
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The cult of the expert. Put any critical thinking you may have to one side and trust the plan. Good boy Kent, move to the top of the class. Theyze people in white coats, theyze cleverer than uz. | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Measles and vaccination on 09:24 - Jul 27 with 611 views | mushinexile |
Yes, they are. They have been brainwashed by teachers for years
And have been told how things work. Scandalous that such sorcery is tolerated. | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 10:03 - Jul 27 with 592 views | kentsouthampton |
An engineer and Jelly were walking through the woods when they came upon a bridge across a crocodile infested river.
Jelly asked the engineer "What are the odds of us making it across that bridge safely?" The engineer took out his calculator and his tape measure, did a structural analysis and said "There is a 99.97% chance we'll make it across that bridge safely.
Jelly responded, without even thinking "fuçk that, I'm swimming!" | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 10:06 - Jul 27 with 584 views | kentsouthampton |
An anti vaxxer died, and to her surprise found herself standing on a cloud in front of the gates of heaven. God himself was there and told her he would be happy to answer any questions the woman might have - about anything across the entirety of Space and Time. So of course the woman said - "Was I right? Are vaccines a huge conspiracy after all?" and God chuckled and said "Of course not".
The woman shook her head in disbelief, shaken to her very core, before murmuring "...this goes even higher than I thought..." | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 16:59 - Jul 27 with 528 views | Jellybaby |
| Measles and vaccination on 10:03 - Jul 27 by kentsouthampton |
An engineer and Jelly were walking through the woods when they came upon a bridge across a crocodile infested river.
Jelly asked the engineer "What are the odds of us making it across that bridge safely?" The engineer took out his calculator and his tape measure, did a structural analysis and said "There is a 99.97% chance we'll make it across that bridge safely.
Jelly responded, without even thinking "fuçk that, I'm swimming!" |
Is there any decision you wouldn’t sub contract out to an expert Kent? | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Measles and vaccination on 17:13 - Jul 27 with 523 views | Jellybaby |
| Measles and vaccination on 09:24 - Jul 27 by mushinexile |
Yes, they are. They have been brainwashed by teachers for years
And have been told how things work. Scandalous that such sorcery is tolerated. |
Why do you come on here spouting your football views then Mush? Leave it to the “experts”that have played the game professionally, done their coaching badges and managed at the highest level. By your own reckoning your POV is a waste of breath? If you believe experts always know better than everyone else and there are never competing experts, then everything is settled and we just follow the government approved expert. Good luck with that friend. | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Measles and vaccination on 08:46 - Jul 28 with 473 views | saint901 |
Guys, the point of the thread here is whether it is necessary or acceptable for individuals who have made a choice to not immunise their children against measles, to be excluded from some forms of social interaction.
We have to accept that some individuals are able to play God with the lives of others - their own children - but the question is whether the price they should pay is to limit their ability to mix socially.
We in the Western world are very lucky (a luck born of being rich) in that many infectious diseases are now uncommon and even if contracted are able to be cured if caught in time. People in other parts of the world, not so fortunate. And unlikely to have the same choices as us.
I can see a case for the unvaccinated being excluded from some events, regardless of their personal beliefs and whether we think them misguided. I am wary of how far that sort of discrimination could or should be taken and where it might lead. | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 11:04 - Jul 28 with 435 views | Buggalugs |
| Measles and vaccination on 08:46 - Jul 28 by saint901 |
Guys, the point of the thread here is whether it is necessary or acceptable for individuals who have made a choice to not immunise their children against measles, to be excluded from some forms of social interaction.
We have to accept that some individuals are able to play God with the lives of others - their own children - but the question is whether the price they should pay is to limit their ability to mix socially.
We in the Western world are very lucky (a luck born of being rich) in that many infectious diseases are now uncommon and even if contracted are able to be cured if caught in time. People in other parts of the world, not so fortunate. And unlikely to have the same choices as us.
I can see a case for the unvaccinated being excluded from some events, regardless of their personal beliefs and whether we think them misguided. I am wary of how far that sort of discrimination could or should be taken and where it might lead. |
No |  |
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| Measles and vaccination on 12:55 - Jul 28 with 399 views | Jellybaby |
| Measles and vaccination on 08:46 - Jul 28 by saint901 |
Guys, the point of the thread here is whether it is necessary or acceptable for individuals who have made a choice to not immunise their children against measles, to be excluded from some forms of social interaction.
We have to accept that some individuals are able to play God with the lives of others - their own children - but the question is whether the price they should pay is to limit their ability to mix socially.
We in the Western world are very lucky (a luck born of being rich) in that many infectious diseases are now uncommon and even if contracted are able to be cured if caught in time. People in other parts of the world, not so fortunate. And unlikely to have the same choices as us.
I can see a case for the unvaccinated being excluded from some events, regardless of their personal beliefs and whether we think them misguided. I am wary of how far that sort of discrimination could or should be taken and where it might lead. |
Who is playing 'God' here, those who pursue a recent medical intervention with mysterious ingredients or those who choose to leave these things to nature , as they have concerns over side effects of said vaccines, while giving their children the best nutrition, the best exercise, the best comfort etc,etc?
Can you see how skewed even your question is 901?
Your creepy conclusions puts me in mind of 1930s Berlin.
Vaccines are not the silver bullet here. It is a choice for individuals to make after doing due diligence, not for big state coercion. | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Measles and vaccination on 12:58 - Jul 28 with 396 views | mushinexile |
Jellybrain please do not refer to me as "friend". I do not allow myself to be befriended by people such as yourself for fear that others might think I share your particular oddities.
Regarding exclusion, I think that those who prefer not to be vaccinated against virulent diseases are a menace to those who would be but have not yet been vaccinated. Exclusion from events where they could endanger others does not seem unfair to me.
Nutters railing that it is all a Government/ Qanon/ Illuminati/Martian plot
to put microchips into us for the purposes of controlling our minds through the 5g masts etc. really need to be seen for what they are and scorned without mercy. | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 14:35 - Jul 28 with 366 views | saint901 |
Mr Jelly, sorry but this thread is not all about you.
If you accept that there is some mysterious omnipresent supernatural power/presence and choose to label it "god" then presumably you accept that such an essence endowed us, its creations, with free will. That free will includes the ability to enquire as to the workings of the frail vessel we call a body and to devise treatments to cure it of various ills that damage or kill it.
One of the products of that free will is vaccines. All vaccines re potentially harmful but those that have been in use for decades have a long history to call upon, become safer every year and will prevent far more deaths than they might cause.
Some individuals - let's call them parents - may believe that said vaccines are dangerous and therefore do not permit their children to benefit from them. That is literally playing God with their lives. And if they permit the potentially or actually infectious children to mix with others, is playing god with other lives.
If we are permitted by god to design and use vaccines and chose not to, how is that not playing god?
I suspect that some of the scientists who work in vaccines are believers in god, (or a god at least). As such they think that they are fulfilling gods purpose for them in using science to prevent death. | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 15:36 - Jul 28 with 350 views | Buggalugs |
| Measles and vaccination on 14:35 - Jul 28 by saint901 |
Mr Jelly, sorry but this thread is not all about you.
If you accept that there is some mysterious omnipresent supernatural power/presence and choose to label it "god" then presumably you accept that such an essence endowed us, its creations, with free will. That free will includes the ability to enquire as to the workings of the frail vessel we call a body and to devise treatments to cure it of various ills that damage or kill it.
One of the products of that free will is vaccines. All vaccines re potentially harmful but those that have been in use for decades have a long history to call upon, become safer every year and will prevent far more deaths than they might cause.
Some individuals - let's call them parents - may believe that said vaccines are dangerous and therefore do not permit their children to benefit from them. That is literally playing God with their lives. And if they permit the potentially or actually infectious children to mix with others, is playing god with other lives.
If we are permitted by god to design and use vaccines and chose not to, how is that not playing god?
I suspect that some of the scientists who work in vaccines are believers in god, (or a god at least). As such they think that they are fulfilling gods purpose for them in using science to prevent death. |
It's quite simple - vaccines in general are predominately a really good thing, however everyone has the right to chose whether they want one. You're entering very dangerous territory if you think a Government should have the power to make such things mandatory and start excluding non-participants from society.
Ever since Covid, I've found it thoroughly depressing that there's so many sanctimonious people out there that think they're better citizens for behaving exactly how their Government have told them to. Some of the lies told during the pandemic to get everyone to conform were shocking, not just by Governments worldwide, but by the WHO and other health organisations, so you cannot blame some people for being sceptical now.
What's right for one person is not necessarily what's right for another and that can be for a multitude of reasons. To show such disdain and hatred towards someone that thinks or wants to do things differently from yourself is becoming more prevalent in our society and is very ugly imo. | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 16:17 - Jul 28 with 336 views | saint901 |
You are correct Mr Buggalugs.
I know (or knew) people who died in the Covid plague before they were able to take advantage of the vaccine. I know some who never had the vaccine and who have not admitted to ever having contracted the disease.
In this thread however I was not suggesting that Gov'ts or others could or should mandate vaccination and to the best of my knowledge that has not happened in the UK.
Were lies and misleading information used to "encourage" vaccination? I suspect that the answer is "yes" although in many instances I also suggest that the unpreparedness of our "leaders" to understand what was going on and how to deal with it produced such "lies" as a result of incompetence rather than design? | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 16:30 - Jul 28 with 325 views | mushinexile |
I don't believe that lies were necessary. Once the rate of people dying had hit 1600 a day and rising, people were dying at a rate of more than one a minute. The public was very frightened. My company claimed that our insignificant part of Warbiz was essential and made us all come in. I didn't need persuasion to be one of the first in the queue for the jab and those waiting for the fifteen minutes afterwards were all very relieved to have been there. | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 16:55 - Jul 28 with 317 views | Buggalugs |
| Measles and vaccination on 16:30 - Jul 28 by mushinexile |
I don't believe that lies were necessary. Once the rate of people dying had hit 1600 a day and rising, people were dying at a rate of more than one a minute. The public was very frightened. My company claimed that our insignificant part of Warbiz was essential and made us all come in. I didn't need persuasion to be one of the first in the queue for the jab and those waiting for the fifteen minutes afterwards were all very relieved to have been there. |
..but lies were told and on an unprecedented scale. Some people could see through that and began to question the whole thing, whereas the vast majority were understandably scared and desperate to do exactly what they were being told.
You were happy to have your vaccine straight away and felt protected by that which is great, but to demonise those who chose to be cautious and take the line that the virus wasn't a threat to their demographic, was wrong imo. | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 16:58 - Jul 28 with 307 views | kentsouthampton |
Anti vaxxers must really hate their own kids. | | | |
| Measles and vaccination on 17:17 - Jul 28 with 295 views | mushinexile |
"..but lies were told and on an unprecedented scale. "
I only have your word for that which I am not inclined to trust, having seen the wording of the rest of your post which is, to say the least, biased. Being in a high risk group I can confirm I never got Covid so as far as I am concerned the vaccine worked. Lockdown was compulsory. Vaccination was a socially superior solution to the crisis and it should have been made compulsory as are, for instance certain jabs when you holiday in certain countries. | |
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| Measles and vaccination on 19:00 - Jul 28 with 261 views | Jellybaby |
| Measles and vaccination on 16:58 - Jul 28 by kentsouthampton |
Anti vaxxers must really hate their own kids. |
Poor comment Kent, but sadly typical from many who have fallen foul of the propaganda.
Let's at least show some kindness when we discuss these important issues. Most of us are trying to navigate the best we can and protect the families we love.
I'm not interested in point scoring Kent, only truth. [Post edited 28 Jul 21:49]
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| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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