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Saints At West Brom The Verdict Tuesday, 6th Nov 2012 09:06
Another defeat on the road for Saints and to be blunt its hard to see a way forward from here.
Saints didnt play badly at West Brom, indeed they enjoyed more possesion than the hosts, but once again some poor defending and I dont just mean from the back four, resulted in yet another loss.
But perhaps the most worrying fact is that in this game there were no excuses, we had virtually a full squad to choose from, we played 4-4-2, if we couldnt get a point from this game its hard to see just where we will get one, for the previous nine league games we always had a reason why we were losing, be it playing the Premier champions on their own ground, injuries and a host of other reasons why we didnt get a point, but in this game none of those could be used.
Again the goals were soft, perhaps not in the manner of defending, but in the way that both started from what looked like safe positions for us and quickly esculated into goals, it was not just quickness of feet but quickness of brain that let us down.
In truth you couldnt have asked more in terms of spirit in the side, they battled hard, but the plain and simple truth is that too many of our players are not good enough at this level, in previous games it hasnt helped that we have played players out of position etc, but in this game everyone was in their right place, it was square pegs in square holes and the plain and painful to see truth is that we do not have enough Premier league quality players.
Its OK to glibly give players we dont like 3 or 4 out of 10 in the markings, but no one was really that bad, we were just playing to our level and sadly that level was one that West Brom could beat at a canter.
So where do Saints go from here, if Nigel Adkins is sacked the fact is that whoever takes over has 11 games before he can bring another player in, you cant suddenly turn this squad into World beaters, from that point of view there is no point in replacing Adkins at the moment, perhaps better to give him a free rein, let him build the squad spirit and hope that in a few games that will be enough to let us pick up a few points and keep us within touching distance of safety or at least within sight of it.
Monday night at the Hawthorns was a dose of reality, we can all argue about who should be in the best starting XI, but whoever it is, it isnt good enough to win games in this division.
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I was pleased to see the team sheet as it looked like a pretty good starting line up and good options on the bench to change the game. I only heard the game on the radio, but it seemed that every time we were up at their end against a well organised team that we were all too susceptible to them breaking at speed.
At the start of the season we were playing fairly well, scoring goals but looking leaky at the back. The back four have had time to start working well as a unit but we are still brittle and lightweight, and just as worryingly we now seem to have adopted the mindset of a losing team when (not if) we do go behind and are looking more toothless in attack. West Brom were marking Lambert with a man behind and a man in front, which nullified him to a large extent, but we were also profligate with possession and did not control the game in the way that we can when we are truly on top.
I hope Adkins continues to get support throughout the next two months and hopefully to the end of the season, but he needs funds to get the right players in during January (defenders, please!) and to pick up points in the next four games to keep within touching distance.
Gazzaniga sounded as if he had another decent game, and I would not blame him for either of the goals having seen brief high(low?)lights. Hopefully he will cement a claim for an extended run in the spot.
I have to say the support was great to see last night. all you could here was the saints fans…even at 2-0 down. Adkins looked choked up when they started singing his name. I agree with nick that some of our players are just not good enough. It’s really a case of hanging on till January now. Any chance of Dawson on loan?? I thought gazza looked solid and his distribution was great. He needs to be number one now. Lallana or GR playing off lambert looks better than out wide. Punch would have been a better choice on the wing last night…although easy to say that now. Fo looks lost at the moment. Good on the ball but defending is really poor. Fonte, I hate to say it but is just too slow Davis had a really poor game in the centre.
im deflated right now but we just have to cross it off and move on. Also read this write up (hope you don’t mind nick)…thought it was a good read as well. http://www.not606.com/content.php/1858-Gary-Neville
Another disappointing result and I have to say I agree entirely with Nick. The team is just not good enough to compete at the top level. I know we need signings in January but fear it will be too late. The missed opportunity was not bringing in players with Premiership experience in August. Just two or three real premiership defenders and/or midfield would make the difference I believe. There has been no answer as to why this was not done - was it Adkins, Cortese, money or what?
Agree about the fans. They sounded awesome and the support for Adkins in the dying minutes of the game brought a lump to my throat.
And I also read that not606 post about Gary Neville - spot on about the individual errors and quality of players. Any chance we could bring him in as a defensive coach, Mr Cortese?
Personally I didn’t think it was actually that bad. I thought the team and formation were spot on, but we just need to be a bit more committed in defence. We are slipping down to 90% every now and again and getting heavily punished. On the plus side: The way we try and play in possession is exactly what I would like to see - aside from the odd misplaced pass, everyone looked comfortable, which isn’t easy to instil when confidence is clearly rock bottom. Yoshida is great on the ball and even Fox had a good game in possession (just a shame he didn’t burst a lung trying to track for the 2nd goal). Gazzaniga looks like he has a lot of potential and already should be first choice in my opinion. Adkins still has the support of most of the fans in attendance. Our luck can’t get any worse (handball, deflection, Lambert hitting the bar, Lallana blatant penalty). I think that if we just tighten up a bit – throw our balls in the way of any incoming shots and summon the inner Terry Butcher – and continue trying to play, then we could pull something impressive out in the next 6 games and give ourselves a decent platform. If it doesn't work out, let’s go down playing football, keep Adkins (who is one of the best things to happen to this club and makes me feel proud to have him as manager) and come back stronger.
Given that Fox was the nearest defender on that second goal, I fint it hard to believe that you suggest he didnt bust a lung, if he didnt where were the other defenders
Nick you are making yourself look stupid with your constant defending of Dan Fox. Yet again last night he cost us a goal. Just say it!!! Or perhaps Gary Neville is talking out of his asssss? He bust a gut for the last 10 yards when he realised what he had done (or not done i.e.tracking back). Fonte is costing us every week too but at least he is trying.
Adkins should have found out by now, despite what everyone says, the EPL is not a pretty place for pretty football; it's more like the Championship than the Championship. He got his pretty players, Lallana, Fox, Sneiderlin, JRod and more running up front, running back, running right, running left; like over enthusiastic schoolboys in the playground but he's come a cropper against the big boys. Lambo can stand his ground and so can Hooiveld and he's been dropped and maybe Gazza, Gully and Mayuka. (Dunno about Ramirez yet) The kids coming through are a waste of time too, off to Gillingham and the like, I'm afraid. He's gonna have to batten down the hatches (5 at the back) till he can get some man-sized footballers in January. Sorry.
I havent actually defended him all i ever do is ask questions about the defening be it Fox or anyone else, we know Fox isnt the fastest player on the planet, if he got outsprinted then thats not bad play just a fact of life
I have just watched the replay, in fairness it was a great cross, odemwhatshisname was goalside of Fox, it would have been difficult to defend, if you want to blame fox for that one, then every headed goal lambert has scored is not down to him but the poor defending.
At the end of the day though like most goals we concede there is at least two other players culpable, Davis for a soft ball given away, Fonte for letting him get the cross in
We didnt disgrace ourselves either on the pitch or on the terraces. West Brom are a good team this season and really well set up. Yes, we probably dont have enough class but there was effort in abundance and thats all you can ask of the players. I thought Fox hd a good game and llanna tried to back him up albeit not always succesfully. As far as I can see Fox has got the blame for the second goal but I applaud him for his effort and the ground covered in the match. Oberthingy was just too quick for him , thats that. To suggest he didnt make the effort is doubtful.
The same goes for blaming Spider for the first goal. Yes, he turned his back and yes thats not good but he's not a coward as we all know!. For the rest of the game he put in 100 per cent and barely put a foot wrong.
I applaud NA for his courage after the game. He's a decent bloke who cares about his players and this team.
Ram ran his legs off after his long break and def looks class.
Ricky was double marked all game but still could have had a couple of goals which shows his class.
My verdict. Not good enough to beat a good West Brom side. Keep the effort up and simply edge towards improvement. Play a consistent team and hopefully pick up a few points from here. Sack the manager? Cant see what that is going to achieve at the moment.
Fox didn't get outsprinted. Had he sprinted then it wouldn't have been his fault. Had he sprinted then he would have got their first. He jogged and then realised he had forgotten about his man until it was too late and then he tried to catch up when it was too late. You were wrong initially and remain wrong after your poor analysis.
The fans were great last night. Good to hear them get behind the manager and the team. The truth is all the players need to fight for their lives right now. The lack of yellow cards shows maybe the commitment isn't quite there. The players need to believe they can win and the fans need to stick by them and NA. We're in this together. It's not a good feeling right now, but we're SFC and we've been through worse.
I watched the game on TV and though we put in a reasonable showing and with that added bit of luck should have got a point that our efforts warranted. The deflected goal was unfortunate as we were not really under any pressure at the time. This played into WBA's hands. They then sat back like the away team and were content to hit us on the break. This they did well to make it 2-0 and the game was gone.
BUT we have to remember how far we have come in such a short space of time. The football under NA is everything that we should be continuing to embrace. WE all know what the problem is? We did not secure the services of the right quality of defenders. We have to remember that this squad and management team had little or no premiership experience. The gamble has not worked thus far. However the support for the team and most importantly the manager has been there for all to see. I am confident that we will improve as the season goes on, but will probably have to go down to the Championship to rebuild with the good experience of this season. I for one will not have any problem with that, because the seasons in the lower leagues were the best I have experienced for team and fan togetherness and importantly really great fun. If relegated we will return quickly, but we will return to everything that is wrong about Football? Has there been one newspaper headline on the back pages that is actually about Football this season? We all wanted success, but success sends you to the financial madness that is the Premier League. Rooney on £250k a week. That is, like him, obscene!
The management team has done an outstanding job at SFC. They will learn from their mistakes this season. Keep the faith and enjoy each match as a 'one off'. Whatever happens, we are in safe hands.
I felt sorry for Adkins last night. At times, he's picked the wrong players or the wrong positions but last night he went with a bold lineup but essentially asked Rodriguez and Ramirez to justify the price tags and Lallana to justify the hype. Well.. the former 2 were very poor and Lallana just wants it so much the ends up charging around like a headless chicken. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Lallana and Ramirez to play wide midfield. It's not the hardest position in the world and both are supposed to be international standard players.
if we are assigning blame then Lallana was at fault for both the first goal and the preceding chance which was very similar in nature and they inexplicably but over from 3 yards. The killer 2nd just can't be that easy. Fonte has to be a proper centre half and either block that ball or give away a necessary foul. Agreed that Odemwingie initially got the jump on Fox but from then it was a straight 50 yard sprint and he was never going to recover once the delivery was good. The point is Long should never have been allowed to take a yard, size up the situation and deliver whichever ball he wants. Fonte simply has to be all over him.
The J Rod 'experiment' is surely over for now too. When Lambert tires towards the end of games then by all means swap him in but he's offering nothing right now.
I thought we matched WBA for the majority. Like we matched Everton for the first 25 minutes, West Ham we matched for 45 minutes, Wigan for 45, Man Utd for 85, Man City for a while…. etc etc. The crux of it is is that we’re not actually that bad. We’ve got some good players who are good enough for the Premiership and we’re not that far off picking up points on a regular basis. Adkins needs to get them to man up a bit, everyone do the basics of the defensive job required from them, no errors, no gifted goals… etc etc. The article above from not606 sums it up very well, as did G Neville. Adkins can’t be to blame for the individual errors. Schniederlin not closing down efficiently enough, Fox not tracking Odenwingie all the way etc etc. On another night, without these errors, we probably would’ve got a result against WBA. Somehow Adkins has got to get everyone focussed on just doing the basics, the fundamentals of defending, get everyone pulling in the same direction and form some defensive resilience. There is hope that the bad luck/individual errors will stop and that we will start to match teams and better teams for 90 minutes and get the wins we need.
Most importantly last night, we should be proud of Adkins response after the game. He could’ve easily blamed the ref for the handball, not giving us a penalty, and come out with all the usual excuses other managers use, but he didn’t. As always he fronted up all of the questions, answered them honestly and said exactly what needed to be said. When you compare that to what the likes of Mancini comes out with then we should all appreciate what decent man we have in charge, who has done a brilliant job for us in the leagues he is experienced in. He is a good manager, who is learning all the time, yes he might’ve underestimated what is needed in the Premiership but we should stick with him. We need stability at the club and we might only be a couple of good new defenders in January away from being a decent Premiership side. Our fans were awesome last night. Loved the way they backed Adkins throughout and we should do the same on Saturday right from the off. Get behind the team and give them that extra lift to get the win.
As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Gary Neville - as a unit we do all the right things, it is just individual error that is costing us. My concern is not just that we are not winning matches and that we are leaking too many goals, but that the players who are prem standard in our team are starting to look disallusioned and we are not only in danger of losing those players but we are also unlikely to attract any decent players to a sinking ship.
I have been one of the many positive fans up to this point, but after last night I just cant help realising that we are short of good Prem standard players. I do believe we have the right manager (although I was screaming at him to make those subs with 30 mins to go rather than less than 20), but I dont believe we have the right players in certain areas. Clearly we need defenders, but I also have to question if Fox, J-Rod, Guly, Fonte, Hoover, Seaborne, Lee, Steeeve are all up to the standard required.
That said, I might be a little harsh on Lee and Steeeve as they have not yet had the oppotunity to show what they can do (we know Lee has been injured but why not Steeeve?). On the same note, I would like to see Chappers given a proper opportunity and also believe Corks return will help too.
As for Goalie - I like the look of Gazza and think he will do well for us, but it hasto be said that our defence has not improved since Super Kelv got dropped and if there is one thing he does offer is leadership on the pitch and commands his defence.....
I keep seeing poor old Gulys name on posts? When he came on ,he looked for the ball he didn't hide and he's far better in possession than people give him credit for! Gary Neville was spot on with his view that maybe our players may not be upto the standard required in the prem,for the first time I thought NA was out of his depth but I still don't want to lose him..hopefully it will come right
While agreeing with much that has been said above, after all some of the comments about the quality of the squad have been obvious since about 65% of last season had expired.
My view is that again Adkins sent out a team to score more than we conceded and that is never going to happen because we are so feeble at the back at crucial moments, the opposition defences are so much better and our attacking is of a rather inconsistent standard. Some of our crossing/driven balls into the area last night was unacceptably poor.
Our central defenders look lightweight, Fox did often look poorly positioned (and he was exposed by Lallana's inept efforts at defending in front of him again), but Clyne and Gazzaniga looked better.
Ramires didn't look all that fit (unsurprisingly) and Lallana's contributions are erratic (both highly skillful and chronically inept within minutes of one another). I think we were outmuscled in midfield for too long and I question whether we can afford to play both Rodrigues and Lambert together (esp. away from home)
I think we need another grafter in midfield, my choice is Cork (possibly Chaplow) and we should adopt a less attacking strategy with a formation that is discernibly 4-3-2-1 as follows: Gazzaniga Clyne, Fonte, Yoshida, Fox Cork, Schneiderlein, Davis Ramires, Lallana Lambert
Cork and Davis have to run themselves into the ground and cover the space behind their full backs whenever the latter overlap; Schneiderlein stays in front of the defence and should rarely cross the half way line. Neither Ramires nor Lallana can defend particularly well, but are without much doubt our classiest players. No doubt Rodrigues will come on for Lambert after 60 mins or so.
So subs will necessarily be Davies, Hooiveld, Ward-Prowse, Guly, Manyuka or Lee, Rodrigues and Richardson
This has a better balance than last nights line up and uses what limited talents we have to their best ability
Not sure if Steven Davis has added anything to the team. Might be better off giving either Cork or Chaplow a start. In the last two matches, Fox has been replaced by Reeves and Shaw. Perhaps Shaw's introduction last night was a preview to a start against Swansea.
Last night Lallana worked his socks off for the team, and was unlucky with the non-penalty. However, he is finding it harder to turn defenders inside out as in the lower leagues, and has to find a way of being a handful again.
Nick, See you are even defending some defenders this time. Suppose you have missed hooiveld this time, so you cannot blame him. Fox was late at the second goal, davis stopped running so did not even try to stop that man, maya did not even see that man coming... And fonte should have done better at the left. Though things started with stupid loss of the ball up front! Nobody to blame? Think there are a lot to blame fot that goal! Perhaps it is just a misunderstanding in how to play the system saints are playing........
Have been out all day and have just come in and read all the comments. Nothing to add except NA is a thoroughly decent bloke and is learning and doing his best. We knew he hadn't premier experience at the beginning of the season. A new manager would have to work with the same players and would be unlikely to perform miracles until new players bought in January. Saints fans are the best.
The system by ExiledSupporter on page 1 makes a lot of sense. Ramirez and Lallana need to be given free rein to attack and get forward to support Lambert. They are both best playing in the space between the oppositions defence and midfield and the system above would allow them to move infield from the flanks. If we play three competitive midfielders then they can shift wide and support our full backs when the opposition full backs push forward. Looks like the best solution to our problems at the moment.
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