| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt 13:50 - Mar 14 with 5340 views | libertine |
Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt by trying your hardest.
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 18:47 - Mar 14 with 1203 views | max936 |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 17:56 - Mar 14 by TheFranchise |
There are so many contributing factors that there really isn't a black or white answer. Genetics, environment, desire to be the best, support structure, natural technical and mental ability all contribute.
It's very difficult to make like for like comparisons between "Player A" and "Player B" because no 2 individuals in the world will match on the contributing factors.
Messi had very little structured coaching until he was picked up and Ronaldo had loads. One is an artist and one is the end product of a very specified coaching program. Is one better than the other? No. If you swapped the development systems of both would they have been the same? Maybe not.
Is it nature or nurture? Or is it everything in between? |
Great post Davy. |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 18:54 - Mar 14 with 1193 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
In answering the original post there are people who can run like the wind etc who will never make a professional footballer .they can train & practise forever but will never make it.
To make it you must have a natural ability of some sort . |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 19:52 - Mar 14 with 1176 views | controversial_jack |
Some people are born with higher IQs , some with better athletic ability and some with aptitudes do certain things better than others can do them. Football is no exception. |  | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 21:34 - Mar 14 with 1147 views | TheFranchise |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 18:25 - Mar 14 by waynekerr55 |
Hence why "brain training" and exposure to a range of realistic situations is key in any coaching programme.
Does my f*cking head in seeing academy players being coached in unopposed drills for 50 - 75% of the session. "O, it's looks good and the coach is talking and they aren't making mistakes so it must be good". The same people are then left scratching their heads as to why little Eugene is struggling in games
DISCLAIMER - Dave although I've never met you that post wasn't aimed at you, I know you are in the breed of coaches who get learning  |
I don't call myself a coach mate, I'm the water boy that lets the game teach the players. |  | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:26 - Mar 14 with 1128 views | waynekerr55 |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 21:34 - Mar 14 by TheFranchise |
I don't call myself a coach mate, I'm the water boy that lets the game teach the players. |
Love it Mr Franchise |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:35 - Mar 14 with 1125 views | TheFranchise |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:26 - Mar 14 by waynekerr55 |
Love it Mr Franchise |
I like to distance myself from the "coaches". They shout too much and play subbuteo with real players. Far too stressful for me, just let them play.
Also for any "coaches" reading this, if you have "coach" written somewhere on your clothing then I'm secretly planning to beat you to death with a marker cone. | | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:36 - Mar 14 with 1125 views | dameedna |
- watch a Long distance runner in his 30s the brain is in orbit, much this can be learnt and practiced
- watch a pro footballer in his 20s only a small part of what he/she does can be learnt and practiced.
A sport that involves combination of legs, arms, head, eyesight and balance attracts the people who are born with dexterity
You can train a runner to move faster or further but in some sports dexterity is more important than others
eg sweet feet vs. sweaty feet |  | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:41 - Mar 14 with 1121 views | waynekerr55 |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:35 - Mar 14 by TheFranchise |
I like to distance myself from the "coaches". They shout too much and play subbuteo with real players. Far too stressful for me, just let them play.
Also for any "coaches" reading this, if you have "coach" written somewhere on your clothing then I'm secretly planning to beat you to death with a marker cone. |
Yes I'd agree with that.
Quality over quantity - whole part whole "coaching" with precise "coaching" points is the way forward.
I've never seen a cone tackle anyone - funny that as I've seen academy sessions that rely on cones  | |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:41 - Mar 14 with 1121 views | Polar |
To the poster on page 1 who said genetics have nothing to do with it and its all about practice.
There is a reason Kenya constantly win long distance races, it is not because they practice harder. There is a reason there is no top level black swimmer, again it is not because they practice less. The list is endless.
In terms of football and tennis etc there is a distinct way of thinking that sets you apart. Some have the drive, some dont, some want to be the best they can be, others arent bothered.
But this way of thinking, maybe thinking slightly differently, is what makes others great.
Dennis Bergkamps pioneering football brain cannot be practiced and it was his intelligence in the field that set him apart at the time - can football intelligence be practiced?
No, it is formed from your own interpretation of the game formed by your own personal experiences and no two people ever have the same of either. [Post edited 14 Mar 2014 22:42]
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:44 - Mar 14 with 1117 views | waynekerr55 |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:41 - Mar 14 by Polar |
To the poster on page 1 who said genetics have nothing to do with it and its all about practice.
There is a reason Kenya constantly win long distance races, it is not because they practice harder. There is a reason there is no top level black swimmer, again it is not because they practice less. The list is endless.
In terms of football and tennis etc there is a distinct way of thinking that sets you apart. Some have the drive, some dont, some want to be the best they can be, others arent bothered.
But this way of thinking, maybe thinking slightly differently, is what makes others great.
Dennis Bergkamps pioneering football brain cannot be practiced and it was his intelligence in the field that set him apart at the time - can football intelligence be practiced?
No, it is formed from your own interpretation of the game formed by your own personal experiences and no two people ever have the same of either. [Post edited 14 Mar 2014 22:42]
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I'd disagree with that. Bergkamp's practice environment (consciously or subconsciously) allowed his brain to form neural pathways which allowed him to execute skill at the right time.
I'd agree though that access, genetics and personality have a big bearing | |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 23:08 - Mar 14 with 1110 views | C_jack |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:41 - Mar 14 by Polar |
To the poster on page 1 who said genetics have nothing to do with it and its all about practice.
There is a reason Kenya constantly win long distance races, it is not because they practice harder. There is a reason there is no top level black swimmer, again it is not because they practice less. The list is endless.
In terms of football and tennis etc there is a distinct way of thinking that sets you apart. Some have the drive, some dont, some want to be the best they can be, others arent bothered.
But this way of thinking, maybe thinking slightly differently, is what makes others great.
Dennis Bergkamps pioneering football brain cannot be practiced and it was his intelligence in the field that set him apart at the time - can football intelligence be practiced?
No, it is formed from your own interpretation of the game formed by your own personal experiences and no two people ever have the same of either. [Post edited 14 Mar 2014 22:42]
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Sorry.. but Kenya and more specifically Ethiopia are two countries that have vast regions that are at significant altitude, I'll let you try and deduce your own conclusions from that. Put that together with athletics being a huge part of the culture there, and you've got a perfect mix, no Kenyan/Ethopian is genetically born better at running than anyone else. Haile Gebrselassie ran 10k every morning to school as a youngster, which is why he is the best middle/long distance runner the world has ever seen, not because he was born to Ethiopian parents.
You've contradicted yourself in the last sentence, how can you develop your own personal experience without playing the game and refining your skill? Intelligence emanates from playing (deliberate practice, which I think is what people are tripping over) and developing your own understanding. He did not wake up one morning with it. |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 23:21 - Mar 14 with 1094 views | Joe_bradshaw |
Lee Trundle was work-shy by his own admission in his book.
If he'd worked harder (it wouldn't have been difficult) he admits he might have made it at a higher level than he did.
Having said that he was a better player than 99.9% of his generation without even working at it. How could he have done that if he hadn't been born with natural talent that almost everyone else can only dream about. |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 23:36 - Mar 14 with 1085 views | C_jack |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 23:21 - Mar 14 by Joe_bradshaw |
Lee Trundle was work-shy by his own admission in his book.
If he'd worked harder (it wouldn't have been difficult) he admits he might have made it at a higher level than he did.
Having said that he was a better player than 99.9% of his generation without even working at it. How could he have done that if he hadn't been born with natural talent that almost everyone else can only dream about. |
He most likely worked at up to the point where he enjoyed it (and so, without even realising the extent of his improvement) and then when the work didn't become enjoyable to him, he dropped off, and his level stagnated. [Post edited 14 Mar 2014 23:36]
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 02:07 - Mar 15 with 1066 views | Polar |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 23:08 - Mar 14 by C_jack |
Sorry.. but Kenya and more specifically Ethiopia are two countries that have vast regions that are at significant altitude, I'll let you try and deduce your own conclusions from that. Put that together with athletics being a huge part of the culture there, and you've got a perfect mix, no Kenyan/Ethopian is genetically born better at running than anyone else. Haile Gebrselassie ran 10k every morning to school as a youngster, which is why he is the best middle/long distance runner the world has ever seen, not because he was born to Ethiopian parents.
You've contradicted yourself in the last sentence, how can you develop your own personal experience without playing the game and refining your skill? Intelligence emanates from playing (deliberate practice, which I think is what people are tripping over) and developing your own understanding. He did not wake up one morning with it. |
Yet equador cant compete with Kenya? How come? People from different ethnicities have differing physical make up. That is a fact. Fast and slow twitch fibers and differing proportions of each. That is why you rarely get the worlds fastest 100m sprinter being white or the worlds best swimmer being black.
My last paragraph hasnt contradicted itself at all. Of course Bergkamps footballing brain developed from playing football... But so does everyone else play football. Why does Bergkamp have a mich better game intelligence than Freddie Ljungberg?
Are you suggesting Bergkamps suoerior footballing brain and intelligence was simply because he played more often than anyone else?
Thats just silly. | | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 02:15 - Mar 15 with 1065 views | Polar |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 17:07 - Mar 14 by Shaky |
No doubt I am going to get quite a bit of flack for this but here is my story.
I was pretty good at schoolboy level but through an administrative cock-up plus my rapidly growing interest in nightclubs stopped playing at the age of 14.
I was a box to box central midfielder but also had a knack for a pass, and always knew the right spaces to put the ball where runners would appear. It was uncanny.
I then stopped playing for about 10 years and later got roped into playing for reasonable county side in Kent. By that time I already had a bit of a beer belly on me and was not fit, not did I really have any incentive to train properly but I still played a few seasons with some success.
However, when I started playing again I knew there was something missing completely unrelated to my fitness, and I still had a good touch. After a while it dawned on me that my instinctive understanding of where my teammates where and where they were running had vanished.
With hindsight I realised I had had a sort of sixth sense that had somehow lost during my break.
No doubt many will scoff at this, but has anybody ever heard of such a thing before? |
Sounds very similar to me. I tried telling my missus this and she had no idea what I was talking about.
Growing up I was one of the best players in my town, very skilful with great awareness of my surroundings almost as if i had 360 vision, when my head was down I still saw the whole pitch in my head including the players on it.
Sometimes it was almost as if I knew what the tackling player was going to do before he did and consistently used to run the pitch on mazy dribbles to the point i had certain restrictions put on me in training.
At 14/15 (same as you) i broke my leg, not a bad break, i was out for maybe 12 weeks. Then it was the off season and then hurt my ligaments my first training session back and was out for a further 12 weeks.
That 8 months or so where i didnt play changed my game forever. That 6th sense was completely gone and it never ever returned. I still had a good touch, passing ability etc but that extra that set me apart from anybody else had gone.
My spacial awareness had gone, "feel" for the game gone, 360 vision gone and in fact was very narrow just what was in front of me, kept second guessing myself when taking people on and had no idea where the tackling player was going.
Something I also didnt realise at the time was how effortless all the above came to me, id make the correct decision in a millisecond without consciously being aware yet I then had to think about every movement or trick.
Quite sad really. | | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 07:25 - Mar 15 with 1003 views | Dr_Winston |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 15:56 - Mar 14 by C_jack |
Then we go back to purposeful practice.
When Frank Lampard was a nipper, he starts kicking a ball around in the garden, with his dad, who is a professional footballer, he has no skill, he stumbles all over the place.
There's a boy who lives across the street from Lampard, as a nipper he starts kicking a ball around in the garden, he has exactly the same skill level as Lampard, he's falling over and stumbling all over the place, there is no 'natural' talent to suggest Lampard is any better than the boy across the street.
As time progresses, Lampard continues to kick the ball around with his dad, and lets argue the boy starts kicking the ball around with other boys his age, who are of the same/less ability. Lampard's practice is far more purposeful than his counterpart, his skill acquisition is of a much higher level, he progresses at a much faster rate with a professional footballer to learn from.
Over time, the boys grow identically in weight, and height. Frank Lampard goes onto become a brilliant premier league player, the boy across the street goes on to be a brilliant Championship player. The key difference was the purposeful practice in those crucial years.
Of course, the difference can be in a wide variety of things, such as standard of local clubs/academies etc. not to mention pure luck and opportunity, there are incredibly talented footballers in local leagues around Wales who probably could have made it in the football league or even higher had they had the right opportunity, that's how it goes.
This applies to all sports and skills. You and I can both start to practice playing the guitar tomorrow, if my 10,000 hours (the estimated time to achieve excellence) are more purposeful than yours, I will be the more 'talented' player. Every time.
We are all born with the same talent and level of skill, zilch. |
So why wasn't Darren Ferguson one of the best players in the world? |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 08:06 - Mar 15 with 980 views | karnataka |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 22:36 - Mar 14 by dameedna |
- watch a Long distance runner in his 30s the brain is in orbit, much this can be learnt and practiced
- watch a pro footballer in his 20s only a small part of what he/she does can be learnt and practiced.
A sport that involves combination of legs, arms, head, eyesight and balance attracts the people who are born with dexterity
You can train a runner to move faster or further but in some sports dexterity is more important than others
eg sweet feet vs. sweaty feet |
Interesting points. Then think about a drummer who does something different with all 4 limbs simultaneously in perfect sync and some of them sing at the same time FFS. |  | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 08:10 - Mar 15 with 974 views | Jackanapes |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 17:17 - Mar 14 by Phaedrus |
And Im the Nolan sisters. |
Sounds very similar to me. I try telling my psychiatrists and they have no idea what I'm on about. I'm the Nolan sisters too. [Post edited 15 Mar 2014 8:11]
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“The stupidest thing she knew was for people to act like they knew all about the things they knew absolutely nothing about.†|
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 08:45 - Mar 15 with 957 views | Shaky |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 02:15 - Mar 15 by Polar |
Sounds very similar to me. I tried telling my missus this and she had no idea what I was talking about.
Growing up I was one of the best players in my town, very skilful with great awareness of my surroundings almost as if i had 360 vision, when my head was down I still saw the whole pitch in my head including the players on it.
Sometimes it was almost as if I knew what the tackling player was going to do before he did and consistently used to run the pitch on mazy dribbles to the point i had certain restrictions put on me in training.
At 14/15 (same as you) i broke my leg, not a bad break, i was out for maybe 12 weeks. Then it was the off season and then hurt my ligaments my first training session back and was out for a further 12 weeks.
That 8 months or so where i didnt play changed my game forever. That 6th sense was completely gone and it never ever returned. I still had a good touch, passing ability etc but that extra that set me apart from anybody else had gone.
My spacial awareness had gone, "feel" for the game gone, 360 vision gone and in fact was very narrow just what was in front of me, kept second guessing myself when taking people on and had no idea where the tackling player was going.
Something I also didnt realise at the time was how effortless all the above came to me, id make the correct decision in a millisecond without consciously being aware yet I then had to think about every movement or trick.
Quite sad really. |
Thanks for sharing that.
Was it the same for you, in that you didn't realise what you had until you lost it?
I also wonder whether it is a coincidence that we both appear to have lost those abilities around the same age? Maybe it is something you simply grow out of, regardless of circumstances.
Anyway, I note there are some similarities between us after all; you must have been pissing yourself over Darran's longstanding paranoid delusion that we were one and the same ;-) |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 09:03 - Mar 15 with 934 views | Captain_Sham |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 08:10 - Mar 15 by Jackanapes |
Sounds very similar to me. I try telling my psychiatrists and they have no idea what I'm on about. I'm the Nolan sisters too. [Post edited 15 Mar 2014 8:11]
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I'm sorry to butt in here, but neither of you can be the Nolan sisters, because I'm the Nolan sisters and I've got a Btec to prove it. |  |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 09:05 - Mar 15 with 932 views | Polar |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 08:45 - Mar 15 by Shaky |
Thanks for sharing that.
Was it the same for you, in that you didn't realise what you had until you lost it?
I also wonder whether it is a coincidence that we both appear to have lost those abilities around the same age? Maybe it is something you simply grow out of, regardless of circumstances.
Anyway, I note there are some similarities between us after all; you must have been pissing yourself over Darran's longstanding paranoid delusion that we were one and the same ;-) |
Absolutely was. Ive never seen or heard anyone describe what I experienced before so pretty pleased after reading your account. Ive had the conversation many times but nobody had ever been able to relate.
The game used to be slow motion when i was "in my prime" even if a ball was pinged into my feet 100mph from 5 yards out it almost seemed that I had an eternity to act upon it, the speed of thought and clarity was amazing now looking back and certainly seemed to slow the game down as a result... and when I came back it seemed as if I had a brain transplant, playing with blinkers on and everything just seemed super fast, the game used to pass me by.
I went from playing everyday with a ball at my feet even when going to the shops to falling out of love with the playing side of the game as it was too frustrating for me. Then started the nightclub part of my life.
To be honest I didnt even know Darran thought you were me. I havent been a big reader of the site since I left as Agent Dimi years ago. I look now and again out of habbit but dont stay for long to get a feel of who is who and who thinks what.
Although the thread on the non football forum has kept me entertained lately... | | | |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 09:08 - Mar 15 with 921 views | Phaedrus |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 09:03 - Mar 15 by Captain_Sham |
I'm sorry to butt in here, but neither of you can be the Nolan sisters, because I'm the Nolan sisters and I've got a Btec to prove it. |
Maybe we are all the Nolan sisters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder |  |
| And what is good Phaedrus, and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? |
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| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 09:17 - Mar 15 with 910 views | Shaky |
| Are just born with great footballing skills it or can it be learnt on 09:05 - Mar 15 by Polar |
Absolutely was. Ive never seen or heard anyone describe what I experienced before so pretty pleased after reading your account. Ive had the conversation many times but nobody had ever been able to relate.
The game used to be slow motion when i was "in my prime" even if a ball was pinged into my feet 100mph from 5 yards out it almost seemed that I had an eternity to act upon it, the speed of thought and clarity was amazing now looking back and certainly seemed to slow the game down as a result... and when I came back it seemed as if I had a brain transplant, playing with blinkers on and everything just seemed super fast, the game used to pass me by.
I went from playing everyday with a ball at my feet even when going to the shops to falling out of love with the playing side of the game as it was too frustrating for me. Then started the nightclub part of my life.
To be honest I didnt even know Darran thought you were me. I havent been a big reader of the site since I left as Agent Dimi years ago. I look now and again out of habbit but dont stay for long to get a feel of who is who and who thinks what.
Although the thread on the non football forum has kept me entertained lately... |
Well your reputation for high quality entertainment value certainly precedes you.
Hopefully you will stick around -- would make a very welcome change from some of the dullards around here. | |
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