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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:05 - Jul 27 by kropotkin41
You can f*ck right off. And when I'm in Gaza - which I intend to be in the near future - I'll send you a postcard.
The line "No justice, no peace" comes from the Palestinians, many of them women, standing in the ruins of their own homes shouting defiance at the IDF and the Zionist State.
go to gaza!! that is fcukking hilarious. like they would let an infidel like you in there!! ask terry waite about traveling in the middle east. if you could listen, you might learn. you might also like to learn that george galloway is detested amongst the hamas leadership, and if he can't get in, then neither can you. i presume you will be visiting wearing cargo pants, a bbc cameraman up your jacksie, and a blue press flak jacket. send my regards. and make sure not to buy a return ticket. or travel insurance.
It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it.
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:57 - Jul 27 by Aunt_Nelly
I can believe that. Unlike our resident armchair revolutionary I've been there a few times and from first hand experience I can tell you that every Palastinian I met wanted Hamas to take their war elsewhere so the violence could end and they could get on with their lives.
I wonder how many ordinary Germans felt the same about their governing party, circa 1941...
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:05 - Jul 27 with 2372 views
Astonishing how some of the hypocrites who are so vocally critical of Hamas were the same idiots on here trying to justify the terrorist atrocities directed by Mandela during the apartheid regime. These are fellow human beings being slaughtered by a Fascist racist regime that continues to disregard international laws put in place to protect the vulnerable. And for the people who think the death of innocent children is acceptable for the greater good,how would you feel if it was your children? Hamas are a nasty bunch born from a disgraceful chain of events created by the Zionist controlled west. If i came into your house told you i was taking over but i'd allow you and your family to live in the shed at the foot of the garden,i'd expect the sort of reaction i've seen from Palestinians. Ps Well done Krop for having the guts to say what is right.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:03 - Jul 27 with 2316 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:44 - Jul 26 by Watford_Ranger
Is that really likely? Would Hamas just happily live either in one state with Israel or merrily alongside or would they just chip away and never allow peace. I've no doubt the average Palestinian and the average Israeli would gladly live next door to each other but personally I see Hamas as being the biggest deterrent to any peaceful solution.
The debate isn't really Jews v Muslims although anti-Israeli sentiment seems to too often become anti-Jew. For me, it's Israel v Palestine and one is represented by a government that refuses to recognise the other's existence.
Who are these Israelis calling for Palestine to be blown off the map (are they even on the map ?)? I've certainly not seen them but have seen numerous times calls for the same to happen to Israel.
Why should the country be "theirs"? What right do they have to it any more than those there now or their ancestors? Why were people happy to sell land to European settlers if they were so desperate to keep hold of it?
"Who are these Israelis calling for Palestine to be blown off the map (are they even on the map ?"
They are clearly smart enough not to state their outright objective, while they continue destroying Palestine. The border change since the UN partition plan, the constant occupation, the physical bombardment of the cities and infrastructure as well as their general population. No, Israel has not come out and said it is committed to the destruction of Palestine, but does it need to?
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:07 - Jul 27 with 2248 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:03 - Jul 27 by kensalriser
Have to say Chubbs, any good points you manage to make tend to be negated by your belief in the International Jewish Conspiracy.
Get your facts right Kensal. They are Zionists who are all 33rd degree free masons but not necessarily Jewish,the conspiring took place centuries ago and is accelerating with the the technological dumbing down of the human race. Look you know my opinions which you clearly disagree with so instead of criticizing them why don't you enlighten us with your outlook on whats been going on. PS isn't it you that continually bangs on about respecting other peoples beliefs!
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:24 - Jul 27 with 2233 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:26 - Jul 25 by THEBUSH
The respective death tolls may not be relevant to you, they are to anyone who cares about what is going on in the occupied territory.
Israel are bombing and shelling UN organised schools and have killed innocent children, how can you justify that ?
You're right, there is no justification for that. But there is also no justification for Hamas inciting the Israelis by firing rockets during the ceasefire. Do they not care about the fate of their people?
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 14:40 - Jul 27 by RBlock
"Who are these Israelis calling for Palestine to be blown off the map (are they even on the map ?"
They are clearly smart enough not to state their outright objective, while they continue destroying Palestine. The border change since the UN partition plan, the constant occupation, the physical bombardment of the cities and infrastructure as well as their general population. No, Israel has not come out and said it is committed to the destruction of Palestine, but does it need to?
This guy, a member of Likud, says Gaza will become part of Israel.
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:24 - Jul 27 by RangersAreBack
You're right, there is no justification for that. But there is also no justification for Hamas inciting the Israelis by firing rockets during the ceasefire. Do they not care about the fate of their people?
Just to clear one thing up, Israeli troops have actually invaded the Gaza Strip and killing innocent Palestinians. Hamas have said, until Israel get out, there can be no truce, quite fair, if you ask me.
Just seen, Hamas have agreed to a new ceasefire !!
[Post edited 27 Jul 2014 16:00]
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:56 - Jul 27 with 2204 views
FDC, can you also post the countless videos showing hundreds of Muslims saying that Israel will become part of a greater Caliphate? What about the one where Armoured Dinner Jacket talks about wiping Israel off the map of the world?
Balance?
It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it.
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:53 - Jul 27 by THEBUSH
Just to clear one thing up, Israeli troops have actually invaded the Gaza Strip and killing innocent Palestinians. Hamas have said, until Israel get out, there can be no truce, quite fair, if you ask me.
Just seen, Hamas have agreed to a new ceasefire !!
[Post edited 27 Jul 2014 16:00]
Is it fair on the innocent Palestinians that will die as a result of Hamas policy? Whether they like it or not, Israel has stronger military capabilities and is prepared to fight fire with hell. If Hamas truly cares about the welfare of Palestinians it will stop putting lives at risk by pushing it's agenda, get round a negotiation table with leading nations and attempt to thrash out a mutually satisfactory resolution.
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(No subject) (n/t) on 17:25 - Jul 27 with 2166 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:27 - Jul 27 by CHUBBS
Astonishing how some of the hypocrites who are so vocally critical of Hamas were the same idiots on here trying to justify the terrorist atrocities directed by Mandela during the apartheid regime. These are fellow human beings being slaughtered by a Fascist racist regime that continues to disregard international laws put in place to protect the vulnerable. And for the people who think the death of innocent children is acceptable for the greater good,how would you feel if it was your children? Hamas are a nasty bunch born from a disgraceful chain of events created by the Zionist controlled west. If i came into your house told you i was taking over but i'd allow you and your family to live in the shed at the foot of the garden,i'd expect the sort of reaction i've seen from Palestinians. Ps Well done Krop for having the guts to say what is right.
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(No subject) (n/t) on 17:25 - Jul 27 with 2166 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:27 - Jul 27 by CHUBBS
Astonishing how some of the hypocrites who are so vocally critical of Hamas were the same idiots on here trying to justify the terrorist atrocities directed by Mandela during the apartheid regime. These are fellow human beings being slaughtered by a Fascist racist regime that continues to disregard international laws put in place to protect the vulnerable. And for the people who think the death of innocent children is acceptable for the greater good,how would you feel if it was your children? Hamas are a nasty bunch born from a disgraceful chain of events created by the Zionist controlled west. If i came into your house told you i was taking over but i'd allow you and your family to live in the shed at the foot of the garden,i'd expect the sort of reaction i've seen from Palestinians. Ps Well done Krop for having the guts to say what is right.
Your analogy only tells half the story. In 1948 the UN created 2 independent states - Israel and Palestine - from the former British territory known as Palestine. The Arabs rejected the declaration and invaded to maintain a unified, independent Palestine. They lost and Israel took advantage by taking control of more land than the UN had granted. Had the Arabs accepted the UN ruling, today they would control their regions. Hamas is an Islamist militant group formed in 1987 with one simple agenda - to destroy Israel and replace it with an all-Palestinian state. Today they still refuse to recognise either the UN ruling or the state of Israel. Meanwhile Israel refuses to relinquish control of those areas the UN granted to the new Palestine.
The point is that the history of the Israel-Gaza conflict is extremely complex and it is impossible to apportion blame. Violence, no matter the scale, is mindless; only a diplomatic solution can prevail. For that to have any chance of happening both sides need to soften their stance and accept that they need to co-exist side-by-side.
[Post edited 27 Jul 2014 17:28]
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:28 - Jul 27 with 2157 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:59 - Jul 27 by RangersAreBack
Is it fair on the innocent Palestinians that will die as a result of Hamas policy? Whether they like it or not, Israel has stronger military capabilities and is prepared to fight fire with hell. If Hamas truly cares about the welfare of Palestinians it will stop putting lives at risk by pushing it's agenda, get round a negotiation table with leading nations and attempt to thrash out a mutually satisfactory resolution.
The Palestinians are under occupation, if they do nothing Israel will continue with grabbing more Palestinian land. Israel ignore International Law i.e. the UN, so what can the Palestinians do, they are in a no win situation.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:28 - Jul 27 with 2099 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:28 - Jul 27 by THEBUSH
The Palestinians are under occupation, if they do nothing Israel will continue with grabbing more Palestinian land. Israel ignore International Law i.e. the UN, so what can the Palestinians do, they are in a no win situation.
Yeah, better sacrifice a few more pregnant women and schoolchildren and maybe send a few fireworks over.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:50 - Jul 27 with 2031 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:57 - Jul 27 by Aunt_Nelly
I can believe that. Unlike our resident armchair revolutionary I've been there a few times and from first hand experience I can tell you that every Palastinian I met wanted Hamas to take their war elsewhere so the violence could end and they could get on with their lives.
Nothing to separate this post from those of the so called 'armchair revolutionary'. You criticise somebody for saying they may go to Gaza and laugh it off, and then say you've been a 'few times'. Not exactly a Butlins destination is it? Did you knock on every door and find out what they thought about the conflict? No.
For the record, I don't disagree with your point I find it entirely plausible and likely. However, there is no difference between this post and the one you are lambasting. None of us have the true story, and we all have our own opinions.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:18 - Jul 27 with 2019 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:26 - Jul 26 by Aunt_Nelly
It probably stems from the Catholic church's interpretation of the bible and anti-semitic doctrine.
Plus the Micks love a terrorist. Sorry 'freedom fighter'. They've trained up many all over the world, including the Palastinians, in the art of blowing up and killing innocent civilians.
[Post edited 26 Jul 2014 16:24]
Did you really call Irish people 'Micks'?
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:28 - Jul 27 by THEBUSH
The Palestinians are under occupation, if they do nothing Israel will continue with grabbing more Palestinian land. Israel ignore International Law i.e. the UN, so what can the Palestinians do, they are in a no win situation.
As I clearly explained in the previous post, the Arabs began the conflict by ignoring the UN in 1948 and going to war with Israel to unify Palestine. Unfortunately for them they lost that war and Israel took advantage by taking more territory than the UN granted.
Now I realise that it must be uncomfortable but do try to learn the facts and establish a balanced view instead of blindly following left wing propoganda.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 08:05 - Jul 28 with 1916 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 00:18 - Jul 28 by RangersAreBack
As I clearly explained in the previous post, the Arabs began the conflict by ignoring the UN in 1948 and going to war with Israel to unify Palestine. Unfortunately for them they lost that war and Israel took advantage by taking more territory than the UN granted.
Now I realise that it must be uncomfortable but do try to learn the facts and establish a balanced view instead of blindly following left wing propoganda.
You have no sympathy in your heart for the killing of innocents, your gonna keep on supporting the Israel war machine, no matter what.
Also don't patronise me, I can learn nothing from you, idiot.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:43 - Jul 28 with 1849 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 00:18 - Jul 28 by RangersAreBack
As I clearly explained in the previous post, the Arabs began the conflict by ignoring the UN in 1948 and going to war with Israel to unify Palestine. Unfortunately for them they lost that war and Israel took advantage by taking more territory than the UN granted.
Now I realise that it must be uncomfortable but do try to learn the facts and establish a balanced view instead of blindly following left wing propoganda.
I haven't got involved to date because this is such a passionate subject of mine. I studied it and actually did my dissertation on comparing how the British press reported the conflict in 1948 (partition plan and creation of the State of Israel) vs 1993 (Oslo Peace Accord)
But I have to point out that comment about "the Arabs began the conflict" is completely factually incorrect.
The Zionist movement began the conflict after WWII by commiting many terrorist attrocities on arab residents of Palestine and the occupying British forces. It was these attroctities and "trouble" that the terrorist groups (Irgun, Lehi, Haganah) caused the British that basically caused us to pull out, given the domestic turmoil and shortage of troops after WWII. It had been going on to a lesser degree since 1940 but ramped up towards the end of WWII.
That in turn led to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. The intitial agreement to which the Arab representatives were invited involved giving c. 60% of land to the Jews and 40% of land to the Arabs. The Arabs, at the time, made up c. 60% of the population and the Jews 40%. Ergo, the partition plan was both statistically unbalanced (unfair, if you will) and would involve the displacement of thousands of arabs from their homes. Having received notification of the plans in advance of the meeting, the Arab representatives (perhaps, foolishly) chose not to attend the meeting as form of strike over the plan. Rather than re-engage, The British and UN who were leading the discussions, and with the true horrors of the holocaust very fresh in the memory and a global outcry for a Jewish state, just went ahead and implemented the plan and left.
The Arabs, launched a war, ballsed it up completely (lots of neighbouring arab states (chefs) spoiling the broth, so to speak) and the newly founded Israel, backed by the US, managed to actually hold them off, and effectively win. There were several wars in the following decades, which Israel either won or held them off, pushing back the Palestine Arabs into ever decreasing plots of land in what was previously Palestine.
But the key point is the 1948 partition plan was rushed through almost purely because of the violent terrorist campaign in Palestine by Zionists groups which the British didn't want to deal with, so they just pulled out in a hurry. Deir Yassin, whilst not an attack on British troops is an example of such zionist militia activity on civilians (107 arab civilian deaths (conservative estimate), 4 zionist militia deaths). It was this activity and, specifically when it was aimed at british troops, which "started the conflict" between 1945-47.
Worth getting your facts straight first.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:42 - Jul 28 with 1770 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:43 - Jul 28 by Hunterhoop
I haven't got involved to date because this is such a passionate subject of mine. I studied it and actually did my dissertation on comparing how the British press reported the conflict in 1948 (partition plan and creation of the State of Israel) vs 1993 (Oslo Peace Accord)
But I have to point out that comment about "the Arabs began the conflict" is completely factually incorrect.
The Zionist movement began the conflict after WWII by commiting many terrorist attrocities on arab residents of Palestine and the occupying British forces. It was these attroctities and "trouble" that the terrorist groups (Irgun, Lehi, Haganah) caused the British that basically caused us to pull out, given the domestic turmoil and shortage of troops after WWII. It had been going on to a lesser degree since 1940 but ramped up towards the end of WWII.
That in turn led to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. The intitial agreement to which the Arab representatives were invited involved giving c. 60% of land to the Jews and 40% of land to the Arabs. The Arabs, at the time, made up c. 60% of the population and the Jews 40%. Ergo, the partition plan was both statistically unbalanced (unfair, if you will) and would involve the displacement of thousands of arabs from their homes. Having received notification of the plans in advance of the meeting, the Arab representatives (perhaps, foolishly) chose not to attend the meeting as form of strike over the plan. Rather than re-engage, The British and UN who were leading the discussions, and with the true horrors of the holocaust very fresh in the memory and a global outcry for a Jewish state, just went ahead and implemented the plan and left.
The Arabs, launched a war, ballsed it up completely (lots of neighbouring arab states (chefs) spoiling the broth, so to speak) and the newly founded Israel, backed by the US, managed to actually hold them off, and effectively win. There were several wars in the following decades, which Israel either won or held them off, pushing back the Palestine Arabs into ever decreasing plots of land in what was previously Palestine.
But the key point is the 1948 partition plan was rushed through almost purely because of the violent terrorist campaign in Palestine by Zionists groups which the British didn't want to deal with, so they just pulled out in a hurry. Deir Yassin, whilst not an attack on British troops is an example of such zionist militia activity on civilians (107 arab civilian deaths (conservative estimate), 4 zionist militia deaths). It was this activity and, specifically when it was aimed at british troops, which "started the conflict" between 1945-47.
Worth getting your facts straight first.
As you stated "The Arabs launched a war". Indeed the Arabs have initiated all five wars and lost every time.
You also ignore the fact that Jews lived in the region many thousands of years ago and almost 2000 years before the rise of Islam. Jerusalem was the Jewish capital for over 3000 years before the Jordanians occupied it, expelled Jewish residents and systematically destroyed the Jewish quarter. They expelled residents, looted and destroyed 58 synagogues, and ransacked the Mount of Olives, a cemetery where the Jews had been burying their dead for over 2500 years.
Now I'm by no means trying to justify the scale of the latest Jewish response to Hamas action but it's important to understand history to place current events into context and provide a balanced view instead of relying on a poxy dissertation.
[Post edited 28 Jul 2014 12:43]
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:18 - Jul 28 with 1716 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:42 - Jul 28 by RangersAreBack
As you stated "The Arabs launched a war". Indeed the Arabs have initiated all five wars and lost every time.
You also ignore the fact that Jews lived in the region many thousands of years ago and almost 2000 years before the rise of Islam. Jerusalem was the Jewish capital for over 3000 years before the Jordanians occupied it, expelled Jewish residents and systematically destroyed the Jewish quarter. They expelled residents, looted and destroyed 58 synagogues, and ransacked the Mount of Olives, a cemetery where the Jews had been burying their dead for over 2500 years.
Now I'm by no means trying to justify the scale of the latest Jewish response to Hamas action but it's important to understand history to place current events into context and provide a balanced view instead of relying on a poxy dissertation.
[Post edited 28 Jul 2014 12:43]
Not ignoring that at all. The area, and Jerusalem in particular, is religiously significant for both Jewish and Muslim people. I absolutely appreciate the Jewish "religious" claim to occupancy of the land from thousands of years earlier.
I was merely correcting your false accusation that THIS "conflict" was caused by the Arabs launchin a war in 1948. It wasn't. It was caused by the partition plan being created and implemented in 1948 due to the British deciding to pull out due to the continued zionist terrorist acts in the region against civilians (which the British, as the occupying force, had a duty to defend) and against British soldiers. Without the zionist terrorist movement in 1944-1947, the British wouldn't have pulled out of the region in 1948 and there wouldn't have been such a hastily arranged Partition Plan. In turn there wouldn't have been the conflict as it has developed.
Jewish and Arab people were living together in Palestine for years before 1948, not quite "in harmony" but at least in some form of stable state.
The need for a formal state of Israel, I get. After WWII, it was necessary, but rather than do it properly, Zionist terrorists forced the withdrawal of the British resulting in a hastily and badly devised partition plan to make the state of Israel happen. That's the root cause of the current conflict: zionist terrorists, which is ironic really given Palestinians are protrayed as the terrorists in the mass media in the simplified story of the conflict.
You're right that Hamas taking control of the West Bank and Gaza after the PLO was a disaster for Palestinian civilians and the peace process.
But nowadays we're not talking about two balanced states fighting a war, we're talking about: a) one of the most powerful military nations outside the big 3, a fully fledged member of the international community and a very developed country (economy, living standards, etc) against b) a terrorist organisation based in a heavily civilian area, where most people live below the poverty line, there is no formal developed "state", people's freedom of movement is controlled by a foreign power, living conditions are appalling and the average age of civilians is 17.
Israel, as a developed nation in the world and important member of the international community MUST take the higher ground and responsible approach. The defence of "what would you do if people kept sending rockets over the border", is ridiculous. Firstly, they have one of the most develop defence systems in the world meaning hardly any rockets actually reach the ground. They get shot out of the sky. Secondly, those that do are fired with such primitive systems, they very very very rarely hit a target, almost all that do reach the ground fall on waste land.
Finally, since the 1993 Peace Accords, Israel, against their word and the UN's wishes, has continued to build settlements in areas designated for "Palestinians". Don't quote me, as I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it to be over 3,000 different settlements since then in areas in the West Bank (predominantly) that they agreed, with international approval, should be for "Palestinians". What's the defence in that? It's not "defence from attack", it's not reclaiming land they were owed under a previous international agreement, it has no defence.
For both these two approaches Jewish people should be ashamed of their governments.
And that's also a key point. The issue isn't "Arab/Jew". The issue is Zionism, very different from Judaism, and Palestinian Arabs, and also the terrorists of Hamas.
My complete sympathy lies with the Palestinian Arabs who are not part of Hamas but have been completely let down by international powers for decades, and continue to be. Israel (not Jews) should have been held to account for their actions against those Palestinian Arab civilians living in the West Bank and Gaza.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:23 - Jul 28 with 1695 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:43 - Jul 28 by Hunterhoop
I haven't got involved to date because this is such a passionate subject of mine. I studied it and actually did my dissertation on comparing how the British press reported the conflict in 1948 (partition plan and creation of the State of Israel) vs 1993 (Oslo Peace Accord)
But I have to point out that comment about "the Arabs began the conflict" is completely factually incorrect.
The Zionist movement began the conflict after WWII by commiting many terrorist attrocities on arab residents of Palestine and the occupying British forces. It was these attroctities and "trouble" that the terrorist groups (Irgun, Lehi, Haganah) caused the British that basically caused us to pull out, given the domestic turmoil and shortage of troops after WWII. It had been going on to a lesser degree since 1940 but ramped up towards the end of WWII.
That in turn led to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. The intitial agreement to which the Arab representatives were invited involved giving c. 60% of land to the Jews and 40% of land to the Arabs. The Arabs, at the time, made up c. 60% of the population and the Jews 40%. Ergo, the partition plan was both statistically unbalanced (unfair, if you will) and would involve the displacement of thousands of arabs from their homes. Having received notification of the plans in advance of the meeting, the Arab representatives (perhaps, foolishly) chose not to attend the meeting as form of strike over the plan. Rather than re-engage, The British and UN who were leading the discussions, and with the true horrors of the holocaust very fresh in the memory and a global outcry for a Jewish state, just went ahead and implemented the plan and left.
The Arabs, launched a war, ballsed it up completely (lots of neighbouring arab states (chefs) spoiling the broth, so to speak) and the newly founded Israel, backed by the US, managed to actually hold them off, and effectively win. There were several wars in the following decades, which Israel either won or held them off, pushing back the Palestine Arabs into ever decreasing plots of land in what was previously Palestine.
But the key point is the 1948 partition plan was rushed through almost purely because of the violent terrorist campaign in Palestine by Zionists groups which the British didn't want to deal with, so they just pulled out in a hurry. Deir Yassin, whilst not an attack on British troops is an example of such zionist militia activity on civilians (107 arab civilian deaths (conservative estimate), 4 zionist militia deaths). It was this activity and, specifically when it was aimed at british troops, which "started the conflict" between 1945-47.
Worth getting your facts straight first.
Great post
Channel 4 done a really good mini series about it all at that time called The Promise, its well worth a watch if you can find on line, there is also a dvd for it.
link to series below, interviews behind the scenes etc
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