| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action 16:13 - Jul 21 with 27844 views | Vetchfielder |
I’ve reviewed the Consultation Papers that arrived today and they are well presented and clear. Personally I could have added a couple more lines to the Pro’s section for legal action but it is specifically it is the aspect of legal fees in the Consultation Papers has left me with major gripes.
The first thing is that we don’t seem to have got a quotation or even an estimate of the legal costs of going ahead with legal action. If we did get a quotation or estimate then it has not been included in the documentation. Has the Trust Board asked for an estimate, was one provided and what are the details ?
What about a "No-Win / No-Fee" type of legal engagement— mentioned by Dai Little in the first Trust meeting yet I can see no mention of this in the documentation?
Regarding the magnitude of legal costs, the words we are given are:
(a) In the Options Matrix, Impact on Trust Funds section: “Likely substantial reduction, possibly wiped out completely, or worse”.
(b) In the Cons section of Option 2: “Legal action is costly and unpredictable. There is a real chance the Trust could lose, in which case the existing funds of over £800,000 could be wiped out or even lead to the Trust being in debt. If legal costs were to exceed the current Trust funds, which is a likely scenario, it is unclear at this time how the Trust would be able to fund these costs — which may impact the Trust’s ability to proceed beyond that point”.
Regarding (a), no detail is provided as to exactly what “worse” means in practical terms and how we would deal with it.
Also, there is a big contradiction between funds “possibly” wiped out in (a) and a “likely” scenario of debt in (b) which means it’s probable. So I don’t know whether the Trust Board thinks it’s just possible or that it's probable and exactly on what that judgement is based.
For me, the really disappointing words here in (b) are “it is unclear at this time how the Trust would be able to fund these costs”. The Trust Board has known about the potential for legal action for many many months so has had more than ample time to take advice, have a clear view, have a plan and identify a proposed approach if the funds aren’t sufficient for legal action.
On the basis of these Papers, I feel that not enough effort has gone into establishing what litigation really means in £ terms of legal costs and how the Trust could/would fund it, possibly because we have been distracted by what the Trust Board consider an acceptable offer. |  |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 02:53 - Jul 23 with 2024 views | Meraki |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 18:56 - Jul 21 by vetchonian |
I doubt if most of the moaners are members of the trust! |
Excuse me? |  | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 02:57 - Jul 23 with 2020 views | Meraki |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 00:38 - Jul 23 by Gowerjack |
Yep.
Which is poor.
Really really shockingly poor.
We have a one off opportunity to amass a significant amount of cash to put away to safeguard OUR football club and yet the body charged with looking after the clubs long term future would prefer to buddy up with the very people who f ucked them over last year...
Astonishing.
Please vote for legal action.
Thank you. [Post edited 23 Jul 2017 0:48]
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We are fighting a losing battle bro, they have told all the members what to vote for - i hope there is some fans out there who organise a proper organisation for that fans - who are no friends with "Steve and Jase" - come on? funny as f*ck though | | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 08:45 - Jul 23 with 1982 views | Whiterockin |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 00:14 - Jul 23 by Gowerjack |
I don't believe it will come to this.
Please vote for legal action.
Thank you. |
I tend to agree.
If the result of the vote is for legal action, I expect a revised offer to presented to the trust. We will then be having another vote as to accept the revised offer or litigation. |  | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 08:48 - Jul 23 with 1980 views | Uxbridge |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 01:47 - Jul 23 by NeathJack |
Ever since I read the voting paper earlier something has been bugging me about it but I couldn't work out what.
I've worked it out.
The offer is given unfair prominence?
The questions given have been staged as two fold. firstly do you accept the offer and secondly, if you don't, what do you want to do.
Now for me this puts more emphasis on the offer than the other two options.
The ballot paper could quite easily have asked:
1) Do you wish to pursue legal action and if the majority of members vote against this would you:
2) accept the offer or keep the status quo?
It should have been a simple A, B, or C option imho with the lower of the 3 when votes are cast being removed and then a revote on the remaining 2 options. |
It's an interesting one. Various options were tossed around. A 3 way question with a straight biggest % wins, alternative vote, a further vote if it's unclear etc.
Agree much deliberation, for various reasons (simplicity,
Getting it finalised either way etc) this was the proposed solution. Don't agree it gives the offer unfair prominence or makes it more likely to be accepted ... Quite the opposite in fact. There'll be people voting against it who want legal action and who don't want to sell anything. It'll be tougher to get 50% in the current wording IMO than anything else.
FWIW, the Trust engaged an independent scrutineer to review the ballot paper, and he is happy with it. You can ask him yourself... There's an email address on the documents. |  |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 09:32 - Jul 23 with 1952 views | E20Jack |
The email made me laugh.
"We will give a comprehensive breakdown of the offer to purchase the Trusts shares, and other options open to the Trust"
Its been a stitch up job from the word go. You have seen people say such like as "I have no idea about all this so will go with Trust recommendation". So essentially it isnt a fair vote. The Trust board has gone from having individual voting rights to mass voting rights. They have all their own votes and the votes of the undecided.
A ridiculous way to conduct a vote of this magnitude. |  |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 13:51 - Jul 24 with 1852 views | Vetchfielder |
I pointed a mate of mine to this thread.
He hardly ever views Planet Swans but reading this after reading his Trust papers has made him change his mind about which way to vote - he's now going for legal action instead of taking the offer. He said this stuff should be made known to all Trust members and I obviously wholeheartedly agreed.
My vote for legal action was put in the kind stewardship of Royal Mail on Saturday. | |
| Proud to have been one of the 231 |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 13:56 - Jul 24 with 1850 views | E20Jack |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 13:51 - Jul 24 by Vetchfielder |
I pointed a mate of mine to this thread.
He hardly ever views Planet Swans but reading this after reading his Trust papers has made him change his mind about which way to vote - he's now going for legal action instead of taking the offer. He said this stuff should be made known to all Trust members and I obviously wholeheartedly agreed.
My vote for legal action was put in the kind stewardship of Royal Mail on Saturday. |
Says it all. | |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:17 - Jul 24 with 1832 views | vetchonian |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 13:56 - Jul 24 by E20Jack |
Says it all. |
Can I ask how many on here who are pro litigation are actually Trust Memebers? | |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:27 - Jul 24 with 1822 views | Jackfath |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:17 - Jul 24 by vetchonian |
Can I ask how many on here who are pro litigation are actually Trust Memebers? |
You can ask whatever you like on Planet Swans.
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:40 - Jul 24 with 1803 views | E20Jack |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:17 - Jul 24 by vetchonian |
Can I ask how many on here who are pro litigation are actually Trust Memebers? |
No idea. Get a poll up and running. | |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:49 - Jul 24 with 1787 views | PozuelosSideys |
Playing devils advocate, in the interest of transparency- those on here who are making lots of noise for or against legal action - id be very interested to know what you do for a living and how old you are.
For example, if youre a 21 yr old shelfstacker, why would i listen to you over members of the current Trust - many of whom are experienced professionals?
Ta |  |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:11 - Jul 24 with 1766 views | Jackattack16 |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 14:49 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
Playing devils advocate, in the interest of transparency- those on here who are making lots of noise for or against legal action - id be very interested to know what you do for a living and how old you are.
For example, if youre a 21 yr old shelfstacker, why would i listen to you over members of the current Trust - many of whom are experienced professionals?
Ta |
Experienced professional what? Do you know what Trust board members do for a living then? If so, can you tell us? Although mukker, I would say just doing your own research and coming to your own decision is the best way to go rather than ditching your vote and siding someone with a job you like. Bit lazy like innit. | | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:16 - Jul 24 with 1757 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:11 - Jul 24 by Jackattack16 |
Experienced professional what? Do you know what Trust board members do for a living then? If so, can you tell us? Although mukker, I would say just doing your own research and coming to your own decision is the best way to go rather than ditching your vote and siding someone with a job you like. Bit lazy like innit. |
Point being mukker, that some people make a lot of noise. Isnt it better to listen to experienced people occasionally than somebody who has their own personal agenda with no come back on them if it goes wrong? | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:20 - Jul 24 with 1751 views | Jackattack16 |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:16 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
Point being mukker, that some people make a lot of noise. Isnt it better to listen to experienced people occasionally than somebody who has their own personal agenda with no come back on them if it goes wrong? |
Well I think it is better to make your own mind up personally rather than listen to others. So what jobs do the Trust board do? You said experienced professionals. But experienced professional what? Not much use if they are experienced professional newsagent owners is it. You sound like you know? Share. | | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:26 - Jul 24 with 1745 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:20 - Jul 24 by Jackattack16 |
Well I think it is better to make your own mind up personally rather than listen to others. So what jobs do the Trust board do? You said experienced professionals. But experienced professional what? Not much use if they are experienced professional newsagent owners is it. You sound like you know? Share. |
I intend to make my own mind up. But i like to listen to both sides of the argument, and it matters who is providing me the information, as those who more experienced in the relevant topic will have a higher weighting attached to teh comments.
if i needed some bathroom done at home, who am i gonna listen to more? An accountant or a plumber?
Pretty sure you can dig around and find out the info on Trust members. Theyve also included bits of it on the forms on the next membership vote | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:34 - Jul 24 with 1736 views | Jackattack16 |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:26 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
I intend to make my own mind up. But i like to listen to both sides of the argument, and it matters who is providing me the information, as those who more experienced in the relevant topic will have a higher weighting attached to teh comments.
if i needed some bathroom done at home, who am i gonna listen to more? An accountant or a plumber?
Pretty sure you can dig around and find out the info on Trust members. Theyve also included bits of it on the forms on the next membership vote |
It depends what they are telling you and why I s'pose. I was once quoted by a mechanic that I needed a whole new gearbox, my mate who works in a crisp factory said he is having me on and just need to replace a part. I did my own research and he was right, saved me about a grand. Who on the Trust board has had experience in shareholder disagreements before then? You seem awfully secretive Poz. | | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:43 - Jul 24 with 1720 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:34 - Jul 24 by Jackattack16 |
It depends what they are telling you and why I s'pose. I was once quoted by a mechanic that I needed a whole new gearbox, my mate who works in a crisp factory said he is having me on and just need to replace a part. I did my own research and he was right, saved me about a grand. Who on the Trust board has had experience in shareholder disagreements before then? You seem awfully secretive Poz. |
Take your own advice and do some research.
Fair points about the mechanic. My concern with all this is why the Trust guidance is to do this deal. Why, if the legal advice is so strong and so certain? I dont doubt for a single second that the people involved with the Trust have the best interests of the club at heart - the same cannot be said of those on the opposite side of the negotiating table.
Id bet top dollar that the majority of the people puffing their chests out and demanding legal action have never even stepped foot inside a corporate building, let alone dealt with the types of people who now own our club. There will have been umpteen discussions going on behind the scenes which noe of us have been privvy too, and yet the Trust still want to do a deal.
I just want as much info as possible out in the open as this is arguably the biggest decision our fanbase will have to take in our lifetimes, and it shouldnt be overly swayed by noisy posters.
Fwiw, im in support of litigation as it stands [Post edited 24 Jul 2017 15:44]
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| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:51 - Jul 24 with 1710 views | Jackattack16 |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:43 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
Take your own advice and do some research.
Fair points about the mechanic. My concern with all this is why the Trust guidance is to do this deal. Why, if the legal advice is so strong and so certain? I dont doubt for a single second that the people involved with the Trust have the best interests of the club at heart - the same cannot be said of those on the opposite side of the negotiating table.
Id bet top dollar that the majority of the people puffing their chests out and demanding legal action have never even stepped foot inside a corporate building, let alone dealt with the types of people who now own our club. There will have been umpteen discussions going on behind the scenes which noe of us have been privvy too, and yet the Trust still want to do a deal.
I just want as much info as possible out in the open as this is arguably the biggest decision our fanbase will have to take in our lifetimes, and it shouldnt be overly swayed by noisy posters.
Fwiw, im in support of litigation as it stands [Post edited 24 Jul 2017 15:44]
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Do people who vote for political policies have to have a background in parliamentary politics in order to have weightable points to their views then? I would imagine nobody on the Trust board and very few voting will have been involved in company legal cases, you dont seem to jnow if they do or not either. But it doesn't matter does it? None of them are going to be the ones presenting the case in court. They have already seeked legal council that says they have a strong case and if they go ahead then it will be a professional legal team presenting the case. I would say if it goes to court there will be an awful lot of dirty laundry being aired. It does seem weird that they have seeked the legal advice twice which resulted the same thing yet seem against going through with it. It does have the secretly paid SD situation about it. I am not a Trust member but will be watching with interest. | | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:56 - Jul 24 with 1705 views | Uxbridge |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:43 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
Take your own advice and do some research.
Fair points about the mechanic. My concern with all this is why the Trust guidance is to do this deal. Why, if the legal advice is so strong and so certain? I dont doubt for a single second that the people involved with the Trust have the best interests of the club at heart - the same cannot be said of those on the opposite side of the negotiating table.
Id bet top dollar that the majority of the people puffing their chests out and demanding legal action have never even stepped foot inside a corporate building, let alone dealt with the types of people who now own our club. There will have been umpteen discussions going on behind the scenes which noe of us have been privvy too, and yet the Trust still want to do a deal.
I just want as much info as possible out in the open as this is arguably the biggest decision our fanbase will have to take in our lifetimes, and it shouldnt be overly swayed by noisy posters.
Fwiw, im in support of litigation as it stands [Post edited 24 Jul 2017 15:44]
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Just on the legal advice point. It may be seen as strong in terms of the case, but it really is far from certain. The courts are littered with cases that one side thought were cast iron but were lost for whatever reason.
It's up to the members who they listen to when determining their vote. Pays your money and takes your choice. Who the board members are and their backgrounds is easy to identify - it'll be in the ballot information. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on here who aren't board members or even members. There are one or two who I'd wish had stood for election. There are plenty pretending to know more than they actually do of course. That just muddies the waters somewhat. | |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:59 - Jul 24 with 1695 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:51 - Jul 24 by Jackattack16 |
Do people who vote for political policies have to have a background in parliamentary politics in order to have weightable points to their views then? I would imagine nobody on the Trust board and very few voting will have been involved in company legal cases, you dont seem to jnow if they do or not either. But it doesn't matter does it? None of them are going to be the ones presenting the case in court. They have already seeked legal council that says they have a strong case and if they go ahead then it will be a professional legal team presenting the case. I would say if it goes to court there will be an awful lot of dirty laundry being aired. It does seem weird that they have seeked the legal advice twice which resulted the same thing yet seem against going through with it. It does have the secretly paid SD situation about it. I am not a Trust member but will be watching with interest. |
People follow the noise like sheep when it comes to political voting - look at Corbyn. All the promises of riches and how things will be better, but in reality - is that necessarily how it would be?
In terms of what the Trust Board do for a living, Jeezus, this is not hard. Il spoon feed it to you. First one of the top of my head:
http://www.swanstrust.co.uk/2016/11/05/trust-appoint-new-supporter-director/ | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:02 - Jul 24 with 1680 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:56 - Jul 24 by Uxbridge |
Just on the legal advice point. It may be seen as strong in terms of the case, but it really is far from certain. The courts are littered with cases that one side thought were cast iron but were lost for whatever reason.
It's up to the members who they listen to when determining their vote. Pays your money and takes your choice. Who the board members are and their backgrounds is easy to identify - it'll be in the ballot information. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on here who aren't board members or even members. There are one or two who I'd wish had stood for election. There are plenty pretending to know more than they actually do of course. That just muddies the waters somewhat. |
Cheers
Would i be correct in assuming the Trust's position is more of the risk averse "safety first" approach?
Whereas litigation is the pressing of the big red meltdown button option of a huge gamble? | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:05 - Jul 24 with 1671 views | Jackattack16 |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 15:59 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
People follow the noise like sheep when it comes to political voting - look at Corbyn. All the promises of riches and how things will be better, but in reality - is that necessarily how it would be?
In terms of what the Trust Board do for a living, Jeezus, this is not hard. Il spoon feed it to you. First one of the top of my head:
http://www.swanstrust.co.uk/2016/11/05/trust-appoint-new-supporter-director/ |
So thats Stewey Mac covered, I don't believe he has been involved in such a situation before, so that's him out. Anyone else with experience in this situation that have the weight behind their views you want? Also how did Stewey Mac vote? Taking the deal was the majority board member decision but believe there was comflicting views. Which was his? | | | |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:07 - Jul 24 with 1663 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:05 - Jul 24 by Jackattack16 |
So thats Stewey Mac covered, I don't believe he has been involved in such a situation before, so that's him out. Anyone else with experience in this situation that have the weight behind their views you want? Also how did Stewey Mac vote? Taking the deal was the majority board member decision but believe there was comflicting views. Which was his? |
Youre not even a member of the Trust. Shh | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:09 - Jul 24 with 1662 views | E20Jack |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:02 - Jul 24 by PozuelosSideys |
Cheers
Would i be correct in assuming the Trust's position is more of the risk averse "safety first" approach?
Whereas litigation is the pressing of the big red meltdown button option of a huge gamble? |
Taking the deal is the safe option?? "F*ck my eyes" is the expression the kids use today isn't it | |
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| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:10 - Jul 24 with 1659 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Consultation Papers - Cost of Legal Action on 16:09 - Jul 24 by E20Jack |
Taking the deal is the safe option?? "F*ck my eyes" is the expression the kids use today isn't it |
Well compared to tanking all the Trusts funds and losing the litigation, yes it is. | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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