| VAR 20:41 - Jan 27 with 8049 views | max936 |
Yes or No?
Its a No for me, opinions? |  |
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| VAR on 10:04 - Jan 28 with 1515 views | Fireboy2 |
| VAR on 08:08 - Jan 28 by somersetsimon |
Most of the wrong decisions go in favour of the big teams, so hopefully VAR will address that. |
This |  | | |
| VAR on 10:07 - Jan 28 with 1510 views | felixstowe_jack |
Wonder if the VAR would have allowed or disallowed the Notts County goal? |  |
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| VAR on 10:29 - Jan 28 with 1493 views | ploppy |
| VAR on 09:59 - Jan 28 by welshbelly |
It's a Yes for me also. The amount to times we should have had a pen or decisions going against us could have been just what we needed in tough games. |
I don't buy it. Here's some examples just off the top of my head. Was Ayew marginally offside when he scored against Watford. Yes. Leroy Fer "assaulting" Cahill before he scored last season - definite foul. Ashley Williams regularly got away with murder and was rarely penalised. | | | |
| VAR on 10:49 - Jan 28 with 1477 views | yescomeon |
| VAR on 05:52 - Jan 28 by squarebear |
Whoo - you’re back level again.
Let’s for a start consider the reasons why VAR is being touted. Who stands to gain most from it?
Then replace VAR in that sentence, replace it with “Champions League” or “Premier League” or “goal line technology” and answer it again.
All these innovations are designed to help the biggest clubs make money. They are all about the bottom line.
As things stand the biggest clubs buy the best players so they usually win. And even if they don’t win they’ll usually have more possession, more attacking opportunities than a smaller opponent; spend more time in the opposition penalty area and so have more likelihood of earning a penalty / free-kick / corner.
VAR will mean the richest clubs will be awarded more decisions in their favour and so win more games. Sure, there’ll be occasions when decisions go against them, but that’s a price worth paying for the biggest clubs because overall they’ll gain.
For the money men it constitutes a step towards the removal of doubt; a means of ensuring their outlay on players is rewarded by prize money and gate receipts because their teams end up playing more games. For true football fans - people who love the game for the tension, the passion it invokes, that schadenfreude, the emotion of watching a top team being pegged back by a league two side even if there might’ve been a shirt pull in the buildup to the winning goal - VAR will have a significant negative effect as it will further assist the same cartel of clubs to win more decisions thereby continue sharing the wealth.
How can that truly be a good thing? |
That's a nice post, I think you are both right and wrong. As said by others the big clubs get the benefit of the doubt on decisions as it is, this should address that. That second last paragraph is spot on though. At Champions League/Premier League level it's not football anymore, it's business, where tens of millions can be won or lost on these decisions. The feelings of the fans and the passion of the game are meaningless at that level, it's all about the results. |  |
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| VAR on 13:24 - Jan 28 with 1444 views | westside |
when the ref goes off the pitch to view the screen he should go into a box or kiosk to view it to stop being abused or affected by the players/ benches/fans. [Post edited 28 Jan 2018 13:24]
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| VAR on 13:56 - Jan 28 with 1431 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 10:07 - Jan 28 by felixstowe_jack |
Wonder if the VAR would have allowed or disallowed the Notts County goal? |
The commentators on the stream I saw originally disallowed it for offside, then changed their minds at the second or third replay as Mawson was playing him on. Then they took 5 or 6 different angles to eventually conclude the ball was out of play before the cross came in. You would imagine a VAR would come to the same conclusion. | | | |
| VAR on 13:58 - Jan 28 with 1430 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 08:58 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
So forget the challenges and leave it to the ref and VAR. We should be roughly following the rugby blueprint, not the tennis one. |
But then that means every decision could get reviewed and refs are not refs but just passengers on the field that convey decisions of thbooth to the players and crowd.
It is not the tennis model, it is more the NFL model. Tennis is too linear as a comparison, it is either in or out, nothing else can get challenged. With the NFL there are so many infractions that they get challenged by coaches and specified.
Rugby works in terms of getting decisions right, but getting decisions right is nit the ge all and end all in football. In rugby, it gets referred probably half the time. The fans dont really celebrate the tries as much as they know that they may not get given in many cases.
We need to hone it to football instead of copying another sport. Challenges puts the resukt back in the hands of the teams playing and also does not enter a scenario where every decision is going to VAR and having 90 min matches turning into 105 minute matches with momentum getting stopped. |  |
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| VAR on 14:10 - Jan 28 with 1422 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 13:58 - Jan 28 by E20Jack |
But then that means every decision could get reviewed and refs are not refs but just passengers on the field that convey decisions of thbooth to the players and crowd.
It is not the tennis model, it is more the NFL model. Tennis is too linear as a comparison, it is either in or out, nothing else can get challenged. With the NFL there are so many infractions that they get challenged by coaches and specified.
Rugby works in terms of getting decisions right, but getting decisions right is nit the ge all and end all in football. In rugby, it gets referred probably half the time. The fans dont really celebrate the tries as much as they know that they may not get given in many cases.
We need to hone it to football instead of copying another sport. Challenges puts the resukt back in the hands of the teams playing and also does not enter a scenario where every decision is going to VAR and having 90 min matches turning into 105 minute matches with momentum getting stopped. |
Why do you think every decision is likely to go to VAR and refs would be rendered borderline irrelevant?
Why is getting decisions right less important in football?
If celebrating a goal is more important than whether the goal should have stood, then don’t bother introducing it. | | | |
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| VAR on 14:50 - Jan 28 with 1404 views | squarebear |
I was amused by Dion Dublin’s assessment of the VAR technology when he said “They got every decision right”. FFS. | | | |
| VAR on 15:03 - Jan 28 with 1398 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 14:10 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
Why do you think every decision is likely to go to VAR and refs would be rendered borderline irrelevant?
Why is getting decisions right less important in football?
If celebrating a goal is more important than whether the goal should have stood, then don’t bother introducing it. |
Who said getting the decisions correct in football is less important? I certainly didn't, not sure what you read there.
I said getting decisions right is not the be all and end all in football, so in order to get decisions right we should accomodate and hone it to a system that does not render the other important factors in football null and void.
It is not about celebrating a goal being more important than getting decisions correct, that is my point, I believe we do not have to sacrifice one for the other due to a limited challenge system.
Your way, or the rugby way, is less of of a honed system and every decision seemingly gets referred to look for anything that may have happened in the direct scoring of the try or the build up. In the NFL where this system is adopted the team must clearly state what they are challenging, that then gets reviewed. As a result challenges are far less frivelous and the game can flow much more (as much as NFL can).
There was an instance in the WBA game when things were clearly being discussed and reviewed that didnt need to be. | |
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| VAR on 15:32 - Jan 28 with 1387 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 15:03 - Jan 28 by E20Jack |
Who said getting the decisions correct in football is less important? I certainly didn't, not sure what you read there.
I said getting decisions right is not the be all and end all in football, so in order to get decisions right we should accomodate and hone it to a system that does not render the other important factors in football null and void.
It is not about celebrating a goal being more important than getting decisions correct, that is my point, I believe we do not have to sacrifice one for the other due to a limited challenge system.
Your way, or the rugby way, is less of of a honed system and every decision seemingly gets referred to look for anything that may have happened in the direct scoring of the try or the build up. In the NFL where this system is adopted the team must clearly state what they are challenging, that then gets reviewed. As a result challenges are far less frivelous and the game can flow much more (as much as NFL can).
There was an instance in the WBA game when things were clearly being discussed and reviewed that didnt need to be. |
I read ‘not the be all and end all’ as ‘not as important’ particularly in the context you wrote it. You either meant not as important as it is in other sports or just not that important at all. Whichever really.
It should be down to someone with the appropriate technology to either overrule or validate a refs decision, not someone watching in real time from the touch line to question it.
A team could make two unsuccessful appeals, which don’t necessarily mean they are wrong, as things like fouls and diving can come down to interpretation and then later lose the game to a Rashford penalty.
I’m not sure how many times VAR caused play to be suspended the Liverpool - West Brom game? The way you are suggesting it would happen 4 times every match, more if the challenges were upheld. | | | |
| VAR on 15:43 - Jan 28 with 1369 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 15:32 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
I read ‘not the be all and end all’ as ‘not as important’ particularly in the context you wrote it. You either meant not as important as it is in other sports or just not that important at all. Whichever really.
It should be down to someone with the appropriate technology to either overrule or validate a refs decision, not someone watching in real time from the touch line to question it.
A team could make two unsuccessful appeals, which don’t necessarily mean they are wrong, as things like fouls and diving can come down to interpretation and then later lose the game to a Rashford penalty.
I’m not sure how many times VAR caused play to be suspended the Liverpool - West Brom game? The way you are suggesting it would happen 4 times every match, more if the challenges were upheld. |
I meant it as neither.
"Not the be all and end all" was referring to the fact that getting decisions right at the detriment of the great things about football is too haphazard a way to tackle the problem when it can be tackled without sacrificing what makes the game great.
It will be down to someone with the appropriate technology to overrule or validate decisions but at the request of the team that judges that they have been wronged. This stops the rugby style referrals of everything which the WBA match bordered on suggesting it may evolve into. If VAR was going to be used freely by refs then it takes away the pressing need for them to actually make the decisions themselves.
A team could indeed make two unsuccessful appeals, that is then their fault. The VAR system should be there to overrule clearly incorrect decisions, if you are stupid enough to use it on 50:50 judgement calls then that is down to you, you then run the risk of losing them.
In the Liverpool v West Brom game it took them 4 minutes to comfirm an obvious on field decision. In real time that is ridiculous and takes the momentum out of the game. So when I say getting it right is not the be all and end all - hopefully you now understand what is meant by that. The remedy must be adopted carefully and considerately, just jumping in and reaching the end goal when it can be achieved other (better) ways is something that would be a huge, huge mistake. [Post edited 28 Jan 2018 15:46]
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| VAR on 16:06 - Jan 28 with 1351 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 15:43 - Jan 28 by E20Jack |
I meant it as neither.
"Not the be all and end all" was referring to the fact that getting decisions right at the detriment of the great things about football is too haphazard a way to tackle the problem when it can be tackled without sacrificing what makes the game great.
It will be down to someone with the appropriate technology to overrule or validate decisions but at the request of the team that judges that they have been wronged. This stops the rugby style referrals of everything which the WBA match bordered on suggesting it may evolve into. If VAR was going to be used freely by refs then it takes away the pressing need for them to actually make the decisions themselves.
A team could indeed make two unsuccessful appeals, that is then their fault. The VAR system should be there to overrule clearly incorrect decisions, if you are stupid enough to use it on 50:50 judgement calls then that is down to you, you then run the risk of losing them.
In the Liverpool v West Brom game it took them 4 minutes to comfirm an obvious on field decision. In real time that is ridiculous and takes the momentum out of the game. So when I say getting it right is not the be all and end all - hopefully you now understand what is meant by that. The remedy must be adopted carefully and considerately, just jumping in and reaching the end goal when it can be achieved other (better) ways is something that would be a huge, huge mistake. [Post edited 28 Jan 2018 15:46]
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I didn’t watch the game, but according to Sky, it was called into action 3 times
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/13864/11225783/how-var-took-over-at-anfie
This was in a 3-2 with contentious decisions. I’m not sure if there were other delays where it ended up validating the refs decision, or whether play was just held up 3 times? It was used in the recent England friendlies against Brazil and Germany and I don’t think it stopped play once.
Your system would result in at least 4 appeals per game, probably more as some would be successful.
It really doesn’t disrupt rugby that much and it’s much harder to see everything that goes on on the rugby pitch than football.
I know it may incite the crowd, but I’d like to see what the VAR is looking at in real time on the big screens. Waiting in suspense is what kills the atmosphere, not the wait itself. | | | |
| VAR on 16:16 - Jan 28 with 1347 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 16:06 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
I didn’t watch the game, but according to Sky, it was called into action 3 times
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/13864/11225783/how-var-took-over-at-anfie
This was in a 3-2 with contentious decisions. I’m not sure if there were other delays where it ended up validating the refs decision, or whether play was just held up 3 times? It was used in the recent England friendlies against Brazil and Germany and I don’t think it stopped play once.
Your system would result in at least 4 appeals per game, probably more as some would be successful.
It really doesn’t disrupt rugby that much and it’s much harder to see everything that goes on on the rugby pitch than football.
I know it may incite the crowd, but I’d like to see what the VAR is looking at in real time on the big screens. Waiting in suspense is what kills the atmosphere, not the wait itself. |
Why would it result in 4 stoppages per game? If there are no contentious decisions then there will be none. | |
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| VAR on 16:27 - Jan 28 with 1339 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 16:16 - Jan 28 by E20Jack |
Why would it result in 4 stoppages per game? If there are no contentious decisions then there will be none. |
If games get near the end without appeals being incorrectly used, don’t you think managers will use them to give their team a breather if they have been under the cosh, to kill another teams momentum etc.
I can guarantee you that near enough every game, at least 1 team will have used all theirs up by the end. Using last nights game as an example, all 3 decisions were right, so there would be potentially another 4 on top. Pardew would have used both his up, frivolously if he had to, to take the sting out of the game.
Give the control to teams and they get the opportunity to use it tactically, that would be a real farce. | | | |
| VAR on 16:32 - Jan 28 with 1333 views | MrSwerve |
Cardiff would be 2 behind now if they were using VAR - that alone should warrant the VAR in all games.  |  |
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| VAR on 16:34 - Jan 28 with 1328 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 16:27 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
If games get near the end without appeals being incorrectly used, don’t you think managers will use them to give their team a breather if they have been under the cosh, to kill another teams momentum etc.
I can guarantee you that near enough every game, at least 1 team will have used all theirs up by the end. Using last nights game as an example, all 3 decisions were right, so there would be potentially another 4 on top. Pardew would have used both his up, frivolously if he had to, to take the sting out of the game.
Give the control to teams and they get the opportunity to use it tactically, that would be a real farce. |
I wouldnt have thought so no.
We are talking about penalty/goal decisions, if there are phantom appeals then they would barely last 10 seconds. | |
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| VAR on 16:41 - Jan 28 with 1311 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 16:34 - Jan 28 by E20Jack |
I wouldnt have thought so no.
We are talking about penalty/goal decisions, if there are phantom appeals then they would barely last 10 seconds. |
Back full circle then.
If we are talking penalty/goal decisions only, then getting them right is the be all and end all. No reason a VAR can’t do that for every contentious decision. | | | |
| VAR on 16:46 - Jan 28 with 1307 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 16:41 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
Back full circle then.
If we are talking penalty/goal decisions only, then getting them right is the be all and end all. No reason a VAR can’t do that for every contentious decision. |
The result reaching the correct decision is the be all and end all - but needlessly achieving it to the detriment of other key factors in football isn't.
Contentious is a sliding scale, as we saw in the Liverpool game an obvious decision took 4 minutes of VAR deliberation. Something that I dont believe would even be referred under the challenge system.
One way achieves the end goal by risking it becoming a rugby style farce where nearly every decision is examined first, the other way achieves the end goal by putting the reviewsin the hands of the wronged teams, allowing the refs to get on with refing the game. | |
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| VAR on 17:01 - Jan 28 with 1292 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 16:46 - Jan 28 by E20Jack |
The result reaching the correct decision is the be all and end all - but needlessly achieving it to the detriment of other key factors in football isn't.
Contentious is a sliding scale, as we saw in the Liverpool game an obvious decision took 4 minutes of VAR deliberation. Something that I dont believe would even be referred under the challenge system.
One way achieves the end goal by risking it becoming a rugby style farce where nearly every decision is examined first, the other way achieves the end goal by putting the reviewsin the hands of the wronged teams, allowing the refs to get on with refing the game. |
Getting the correct decision wasn’t the be all and end all earlier on. Now it is?
I wouldn’t rip up the blueprint just because one clear decision (I haven’t seen it but I’m sure you are right) took too long to ratify. It’s only in the teething stage.
As an aside, the majority of tries referred to the TMO are when a winger is close to the touchline or several bodies go over the line at the same time and it’s hard to see whether the ball was grounded. There aren’t really comparable circumstances in football. VAR wouldn’t be used nearly as often. | | | |
| VAR on 17:10 - Jan 28 with 1287 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 17:01 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
Getting the correct decision wasn’t the be all and end all earlier on. Now it is?
I wouldn’t rip up the blueprint just because one clear decision (I haven’t seen it but I’m sure you are right) took too long to ratify. It’s only in the teething stage.
As an aside, the majority of tries referred to the TMO are when a winger is close to the touchline or several bodies go over the line at the same time and it’s hard to see whether the ball was grounded. There aren’t really comparable circumstances in football. VAR wouldn’t be used nearly as often. |
Not sure how many more times I can explain this one mate.
"Getting the correct decision is not the be all and end all though" was a comment referring to the fact that there are other things we need to consider too, bullishly trying to get to that while ignoring other factors is lunacy when you can achieve it by other, less damaging means.
Using the rugby model just because it gets us to that goal of correct decisions is silly when it is designed for another sport. So just simply getting to that end point is not the be all and end all - achieving the end goal smartly is, however. | |
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| VAR on 17:12 - Jan 28 with 1285 views | Darran |
| VAR on 17:01 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
Getting the correct decision wasn’t the be all and end all earlier on. Now it is?
I wouldn’t rip up the blueprint just because one clear decision (I haven’t seen it but I’m sure you are right) took too long to ratify. It’s only in the teething stage.
As an aside, the majority of tries referred to the TMO are when a winger is close to the touchline or several bodies go over the line at the same time and it’s hard to see whether the ball was grounded. There aren’t really comparable circumstances in football. VAR wouldn’t be used nearly as often. |
Tim do us all a favour and stop replying to the weird cùnt. |  |
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| VAR on 17:14 - Jan 28 with 1281 views | jack247 |
| VAR on 17:12 - Jan 28 by Darran |
Tim do us all a favour and stop replying to the weird cùnt. |
You stop bitching about Perch and I will | | | |
| VAR on 17:14 - Jan 28 with 1280 views | E20Jack |
| VAR on 17:12 - Jan 28 by Darran |
Tim do us all a favour and stop replying to the weird cùnt. |
Just because people preferred Perch over you when you decided to bully him is no reason to follow me around like a love sick puppy. Not my fault you are down on your luck. [Post edited 28 Jan 2018 17:14]
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| VAR on 17:15 - Jan 28 with 1274 views | Darran |
| VAR on 17:14 - Jan 28 by jack247 |
You stop bitching about Perch and I will |
I don’t. | |
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