| Roberto Martinez 21:38 - Jun 28 with 20018 views | SgorioFruit |
Turned Swansea City FC into one of the most attractive playing football clubs in the whole of the British isles. Massively influential in putting the foundations in for SCFC to become a model club that would rise from league 1 to Premier league in a matter of few years.
And he has also just beaten England in a World Cup game.
If you were told that was going to happen while he was playing for us down the vetch you would have thought you were dreaming.
I’d like to buy that man a pint.
Please discuss. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 17:36 - Jun 29 with 1073 views | KingBony |
| Roberto Martinez on 14:59 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Fans being irrational and biased is a huge part of football. It wouldn’t be anywhere near the spectacle it is without that. We’d barely have rivalries.
They aren’t good character traits in day to day life, of course they aren’t, but that isn’t what this discussion is about.
Your third paragraph is absolutely right. Yet it’s part and parcel of being a fan. I’m not going to try to argue it’s logical with you, it isn’t. Following a football team is a deeply illogical pastime.
Pissed on/tarnished their legacies - potato/potato.
Had Martinez been upfront about his ambition (like Rodgers) and not fed us all that drag me away kicking and screaming nonsense, or Jenkins been up front about his desire to sell and looked for a buyer who genuinely would take us forward, they’d both still be loved here. The fact that they left/sold was never the issue, it was the way they went about it. |
Correct my friend.
Do not give anymore time to the troll master |  |
| Daddy Daddy cool, Daddy Daddy cool |
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| Roberto Martinez on 19:13 - Jun 29 with 1050 views | ItchySphincter |
| Roberto Martinez on 05:17 - Jun 29 by stevethejack |
For me, it wasn't hatred, more a feeling of betrayal. It was like being left by your lover.
The promise to stay and love us for ever and leaving us. It really hurt. |
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| Roberto Martinez on 21:11 - Jun 29 with 1012 views | TNT |
Both sides of the argument are valid.
Yet, however bitter I may feel, he still gave me some of the best football I've watched The Swans play in over forty years of watching them. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 21:18 - Jun 29 with 1012 views | swancity |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:10 - Jun 28 by jack247 |
Wonder if people will remember Jenkins fondly 10 years after he goes.
Martinez was absolutely hated at the time. |
Only hated by people who don’t understand football and how it works. | |
| Only an idiot would eat a turkey curry on Christmas day |
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| Roberto Martinez on 21:34 - Jun 29 with 999 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 21:18 - Jun 29 by swancity |
Only hated by people who don’t understand football and how it works. |
Understanding how football works and understanding how being a fan works are two different things. Most people know it’s just a job to them and they will jump ship given a better offer. That doesn’t mean we have to like it. As I’ve said above, it’s irrational, but it’s undeniable.
I can quite understand fans holding nothing against Martinez. On the whole the positive far outweighs the negative. Time is a great healer, there was not a lot of love for him in the city at all when he left.
But if you think everyone who dislikes/d him, you’re probably more of an observer than a fan. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 21:42 - Jun 29 with 987 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 21:34 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Understanding how football works and understanding how being a fan works are two different things. Most people know it’s just a job to them and they will jump ship given a better offer. That doesn’t mean we have to like it. As I’ve said above, it’s irrational, but it’s undeniable.
I can quite understand fans holding nothing against Martinez. On the whole the positive far outweighs the negative. Time is a great healer, there was not a lot of love for him in the city at all when he left.
But if you think everyone who dislikes/d him, you’re probably more of an observer than a fan. |
I don’t know why you keep saying being a fan means you have to be irrational and biased? Who on earth sets that criteria?
Am I only a fan if I say Alfie Mawson is better than Sergio Ramos then? Is having an accurate view of something mean we are just observers and as a result have to now stop suggesting we are a fan of the side? |  |
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| Roberto Martinez (n/t) on 21:43 - Jun 29 with 985 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 14:59 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Fans being irrational and biased is a huge part of football. It wouldn’t be anywhere near the spectacle it is without that. We’d barely have rivalries.
They aren’t good character traits in day to day life, of course they aren’t, but that isn’t what this discussion is about.
Your third paragraph is absolutely right. Yet it’s part and parcel of being a fan. I’m not going to try to argue it’s logical with you, it isn’t. Following a football team is a deeply illogical pastime.
Pissed on/tarnished their legacies - potato/potato.
Had Martinez been upfront about his ambition (like Rodgers) and not fed us all that drag me away kicking and screaming nonsense, or Jenkins been up front about his desire to sell and looked for a buyer who genuinely would take us forward, they’d both still be loved here. The fact that they left/sold was never the issue, it was the way they went about it. |
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| Roberto Martinez on 21:54 - Jun 29 with 976 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 14:59 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Fans being irrational and biased is a huge part of football. It wouldn’t be anywhere near the spectacle it is without that. We’d barely have rivalries.
They aren’t good character traits in day to day life, of course they aren’t, but that isn’t what this discussion is about.
Your third paragraph is absolutely right. Yet it’s part and parcel of being a fan. I’m not going to try to argue it’s logical with you, it isn’t. Following a football team is a deeply illogical pastime.
Pissed on/tarnished their legacies - potato/potato.
Had Martinez been upfront about his ambition (like Rodgers) and not fed us all that drag me away kicking and screaming nonsense, or Jenkins been up front about his desire to sell and looked for a buyer who genuinely would take us forward, they’d both still be loved here. The fact that they left/sold was never the issue, it was the way they went about it. |
Being irrational and biased is absolutely not a huge part of football and being a fan. What you are describing is football banter. Football banter is a huge part of football culture yes. But that isn’t what this is, this is a discussion about a manager. Not a spur of the moment head to head against a rival in a slanging match, if you cannot be balanced and have honest views on a discussion like this then you never will.
I have an absolutely bitter feeling for Cardiff football club which has been branded into me in the early to mid nineties. But am still able to have a balanced view. They would probably beat us if we played right now, are in a better position than us and their City is fantastic. Doesn’t mean I am going to go out and buy a jersey however, you can be honest and still have a team as a rival.
Pissed on their legacies means they have ruined them, tarnished means slightly smeared.
So you genuinely thought MartÃnez was going to stay forever regardless of what job he was offered? He didn’t feed us anything, it was a solitary comment. Equivelant of getting upset because someone hashtags #onceajackalwaysakack or kisses the badge then leaves - which is something you can attribute to nearly every player we have had.
Every single player and manager has top ambitions, every single one. If they didn’t, I would question their personality and position in our team with such lack of ambition or belief. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 21:55]
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:01 - Jun 29 with 972 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 21:42 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
I don’t know why you keep saying being a fan means you have to be irrational and biased? Who on earth sets that criteria?
Am I only a fan if I say Alfie Mawson is better than Sergio Ramos then? Is having an accurate view of something mean we are just observers and as a result have to now stop suggesting we are a fan of the side? |
I haven’t said you have to be. I said it’s part of being a fan. Some have it in their make up, some don’t. Some get emotionally involved, some have a more clinical, passion free approach.
Some are fan(atic)s, some aren’t. Those that are, are often going to be biased, whether it’s a dodgy penalty call or selling your local club to a hedge fund.
You don’t have to dislike Martinez (or Jenkins) to be a fan, that would be ridiculous and I haven’t implied that. But to claim that Martinez was only hated by people who didn’t understand football, implies to me he doesn’t understand the passion a lot of fans have for the club.
As I asked earlier, should Tottenham fans not have held anything against Sol Campbell because he made a good career move? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:09 - Jun 29 with 968 views | Darran |
People should also remember that he loved Wigan so much that he fuçked off after getting them relegated even though they wanted him to stay. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:09 - Jun 29 with 967 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 21:54 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
Being irrational and biased is absolutely not a huge part of football and being a fan. What you are describing is football banter. Football banter is a huge part of football culture yes. But that isn’t what this is, this is a discussion about a manager. Not a spur of the moment head to head against a rival in a slanging match, if you cannot be balanced and have honest views on a discussion like this then you never will.
I have an absolutely bitter feeling for Cardiff football club which has been branded into me in the early to mid nineties. But am still able to have a balanced view. They would probably beat us if we played right now, are in a better position than us and their City is fantastic. Doesn’t mean I am going to go out and buy a jersey however, you can be honest and still have a team as a rival.
Pissed on their legacies means they have ruined them, tarnished means slightly smeared.
So you genuinely thought MartÃnez was going to stay forever regardless of what job he was offered? He didn’t feed us anything, it was a solitary comment. Equivelant of getting upset because someone hashtags #onceajackalwaysakack or kisses the badge then leaves - which is something you can attribute to nearly every player we have had.
Every single player and manager has top ambitions, every single one. If they didn’t, I would question their personality and position in our team with such lack of ambition or belief. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 21:55]
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Just as I can have a balanced view on Martinez and Jenkins. The pair of them did far more good than bad, as I have already said. They both did what was best for them, regardless of the negative connotations for the club. They have both done very well out of it.
That’s balanced and impartial. I didn’t like the way Martinez left or Jenkins sold up. It’s as if you don’t think I have a right to feel resentment at either situation. Whether or not they agreed with it, a fan would understand that sentiment. An observer possibly wouldn’t.
As i said earlier, no I didn’t think Martinez would stay forever, nor Jenkins. It was the manner of the way they went about it. Possibly that doesn’t make sense to you. If it didn’t at the time and it doesn’t now, I doubt it ever will. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:12 - Jun 29 with 965 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:09 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Just as I can have a balanced view on Martinez and Jenkins. The pair of them did far more good than bad, as I have already said. They both did what was best for them, regardless of the negative connotations for the club. They have both done very well out of it.
That’s balanced and impartial. I didn’t like the way Martinez left or Jenkins sold up. It’s as if you don’t think I have a right to feel resentment at either situation. Whether or not they agreed with it, a fan would understand that sentiment. An observer possibly wouldn’t.
As i said earlier, no I didn’t think Martinez would stay forever, nor Jenkins. It was the manner of the way they went about it. Possibly that doesn’t make sense to you. If it didn’t at the time and it doesn’t now, I doubt it ever will. |
You won’t beat the troll Tim I’d leave it I were you. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:17 - Jun 29 with 961 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:01 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
I haven’t said you have to be. I said it’s part of being a fan. Some have it in their make up, some don’t. Some get emotionally involved, some have a more clinical, passion free approach.
Some are fan(atic)s, some aren’t. Those that are, are often going to be biased, whether it’s a dodgy penalty call or selling your local club to a hedge fund.
You don’t have to dislike Martinez (or Jenkins) to be a fan, that would be ridiculous and I haven’t implied that. But to claim that Martinez was only hated by people who didn’t understand football, implies to me he doesn’t understand the passion a lot of fans have for the club.
As I asked earlier, should Tottenham fans not have held anything against Sol Campbell because he made a good career move? |
Yes you have, you went on to say it immediately after you said you didn’t just then too. You are trying to say that if you don’t lie, stretch the truth, be irrational and biased about Roberto Martinez then you not a fan and devoid of passion for the game or the club. It is a stunning statement, one usually seen by Tampie or someone rather than someone sensible like yourself.
I am a fanatic, travelling the length and breadth of the country following the side suggests so - yet perfectly able to state honestly if a penalty was correctly given or not 4 years after the fact and still perfectly able to understand people kissing a badge doesn’t mean they love the club and people that say they want to stay will still go if offered a better job. Being a fan does not mean I view the game as a 12 year old completely devoid of the rational traits earned from elsewhere.
I don’t know what the Sol Campbell situation was, moving to a rival in the same division I can see as being emotive. Martinez didn’t move to a rival in the same division, he moved to a then relatively established Premier League club, Jason Scotland did the same a matter of months later, not a peep. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 22:21]
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:19 - Jun 29 with 957 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:12 - Jun 29 by Darran |
You won’t beat the troll Tim I’d leave it I were you. |
I quite like debating with him. He gets his points across very well.
If he or anyone else was happy with the whole Martinez saga, that’s his right, but there’s something wrong if he can’t empathise with those that weren’t. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:20 - Jun 29 with 953 views | swancity |
| Roberto Martinez on 21:34 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Understanding how football works and understanding how being a fan works are two different things. Most people know it’s just a job to them and they will jump ship given a better offer. That doesn’t mean we have to like it. As I’ve said above, it’s irrational, but it’s undeniable.
I can quite understand fans holding nothing against Martinez. On the whole the positive far outweighs the negative. Time is a great healer, there was not a lot of love for him in the city at all when he left.
But if you think everyone who dislikes/d him, you’re probably more of an observer than a fan. |
Nonsense. Complete crap.
RM was / is one of the best young managers on the game. Of course his salary increased massively when he left us but he was ambitious and an incredibly astute young coach as you can see now with the stylish way his Belgium team play. I’ve heard laughable remarks like ‘yes but he ripped the heart out of our Club!’. What he did in reality was to put in place a style of play and vision which enabled his successors to build on it and succeed.
Some of our fans resented him and that’s their prerogative. Some hated him for it but this is football. It’s what happens. Some Ostersund fans resent Potter now but most are grateful to him for what he did there.
As for Martinez, wasn’t it good to see his Belgium team beat an over hyped England by playing in that stylish way, the Swansea way, pass and move, rotate positions and play without fear and flair. I’ve been a Swans fan since 1971 and understand football . RM moved on. Big deal. Good for him. | |
| Only an idiot would eat a turkey curry on Christmas day |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:22 - Jun 29 with 949 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:19 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
I quite like debating with him. He gets his points across very well.
If he or anyone else was happy with the whole Martinez saga, that’s his right, but there’s something wrong if he can’t empathise with those that weren’t. |
At the time, yes.
This is many years later. If you can’t have a fair approach in a debate now then you never will. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:27 - Jun 29 with 939 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:17 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
Yes you have, you went on to say it immediately after you said you didn’t just then too. You are trying to say that if you don’t lie, stretch the truth, be irrational and biased about Roberto Martinez then you not a fan and devoid of passion for the game or the club. It is a stunning statement, one usually seen by Tampie or someone rather than someone sensible like yourself.
I am a fanatic, travelling the length and breadth of the country following the side suggests so - yet perfectly able to state honestly if a penalty was correctly given or not 4 years after the fact and still perfectly able to understand people kissing a badge doesn’t mean they love the club and people that say they want to stay will still go if offered a better job. Being a fan does not mean I view the game as a 12 year old completely devoid of the rational traits earned from elsewhere.
I don’t know what the Sol Campbell situation was, moving to a rival in the same division I can see as being emotive. Martinez didn’t move to a rival in the same division, he moved to a then relatively established Premier League club, Jason Scotland did the same a matter of months later, not a peep. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 22:21]
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No I’m not. I’m saying that a lot of fans (including me, although I’ve mellowed a lot on Martinez over time) have those traits. I’m saying if you can’t understand that, you probably don’t really get what being a fan entails. I’m not saying you have to agree with it. I can empathise with those who were happy for him to leave the way he did, though I don’t agree with them.
And why should whIch club or which division make any difference if you are looking at it from a totally unbiased, rational viewpoint? Your first and third paragraphs are contradictory. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:41 - Jun 29 with 929 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:27 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
No I’m not. I’m saying that a lot of fans (including me, although I’ve mellowed a lot on Martinez over time) have those traits. I’m saying if you can’t understand that, you probably don’t really get what being a fan entails. I’m not saying you have to agree with it. I can empathise with those who were happy for him to leave the way he did, though I don’t agree with them.
And why should whIch club or which division make any difference if you are looking at it from a totally unbiased, rational viewpoint? Your first and third paragraphs are contradictory. |
Well you have changed it slightly now, and have said most fans. Before, you were saying it is part of football and being a fan, which implies if you do not stretch the truth, be irrational and unbalanced then you are not a fan and have a passionless approach to the game as a whole.
We have seen on here the amount of irrational rubbish spouted around. So me not understanding that some are like that isn’t even a discussion and have never said otherwise. I am just making the point that being able to see a situation for what it is, is beneficial in a debate about it and does not make me less of a fan because I refuse to approach it like you would see from a 12 year old and his favourite player on the play ground.
I don’t know the Sol Campbell situation well, I did not even follow the going’s on of the Premier League at that time, far more concerned with our plight. There is a massive difference between leaving a club to go to a rival in the same league and City, which is why you chose that example instead of another manager that left for a better job. There are a host of like for like examples, feel free to use one and I will probably tell you that there was little that manager did wrong by taking the move. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 22:49]
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:43 - Jun 29 with 927 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:19 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
I quite like debating with him. He gets his points across very well.
If he or anyone else was happy with the whole Martinez saga, that’s his right, but there’s something wrong if he can’t empathise with those that weren’t. |
It’s not an out being happy with it, I was devastated when he left. It’s about understanding that it happens in football on a regular basis, always has happened as lon as I have known the game and will continue to happen long after I’m gone. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:47 - Jun 29 with 924 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:20 - Jun 29 by swancity |
Nonsense. Complete crap.
RM was / is one of the best young managers on the game. Of course his salary increased massively when he left us but he was ambitious and an incredibly astute young coach as you can see now with the stylish way his Belgium team play. I’ve heard laughable remarks like ‘yes but he ripped the heart out of our Club!’. What he did in reality was to put in place a style of play and vision which enabled his successors to build on it and succeed.
Some of our fans resented him and that’s their prerogative. Some hated him for it but this is football. It’s what happens. Some Ostersund fans resent Potter now but most are grateful to him for what he did there.
As for Martinez, wasn’t it good to see his Belgium team beat an over hyped England by playing in that stylish way, the Swansea way, pass and move, rotate positions and play without fear and flair. I’ve been a Swans fan since 1971 and understand football . RM moved on. Big deal. Good for him. |
He wasn’t and he isn’t, but he was absolutely one of the biggest players in us getting to the PL and playing the style of football we did. He was also one of, if not the biggest on field reasons we didn’t go non league. I’d never try to take that away from him, how could I?
Some fans resented him for it (the way he left, not what he did when he was here)and that’s their prerogative - bingo!
I’m not sure how you equate that to not understanding how football works. Not many won’t be able to see it was a good career move for him. They resent the fact that it harmed the club they support. Biased? Irrational? Yes. Part of being a fan (for some)absolutely. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:50 - Jun 29 with 919 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:43 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
It’s not an out being happy with it, I was devastated when he left. It’s about understanding that it happens in football on a regular basis, always has happened as lon as I have known the game and will continue to happen long after I’m gone. |
You were devastated when he left, I’m guessing, but probably a bit resentful too? Some still are. That doesn’t mean they don’t understand things like that happen. They just don’t like it when it happens to their club. It’s a completely valid point of view that anyone can disagree with, but no one can dismiss as incorrect. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:52 - Jun 29 with 915 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:19 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
I quite like debating with him. He gets his points across very well.
If he or anyone else was happy with the whole Martinez saga, that’s his right, but there’s something wrong if he can’t empathise with those that weren’t. |
You can’t debate with someone that’s never wrong. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:53 - Jun 29 with 915 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:50 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
You were devastated when he left, I’m guessing, but probably a bit resentful too? Some still are. That doesn’t mean they don’t understand things like that happen. They just don’t like it when it happens to their club. It’s a completely valid point of view that anyone can disagree with, but no one can dismiss as incorrect. |
No never resentful, I was watching excellent Championship football because of him after rescuing us from possibly going out of business by being an integral part of the team in league 2, how could I resent him?
I was devastated when Trundle left for Bristol City after years of kissing the bash and claiming what a huge Jack he was - I never resented him either. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:55 - Jun 29 with 914 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:41 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
Well you have changed it slightly now, and have said most fans. Before, you were saying it is part of football and being a fan, which implies if you do not stretch the truth, be irrational and unbalanced then you are not a fan and have a passionless approach to the game as a whole.
We have seen on here the amount of irrational rubbish spouted around. So me not understanding that some are like that isn’t even a discussion and have never said otherwise. I am just making the point that being able to see a situation for what it is, is beneficial in a debate about it and does not make me less of a fan because I refuse to approach it like you would see from a 12 year old and his favourite player on the play ground.
I don’t know the Sol Campbell situation well, I did not even follow the going’s on of the Premier League at that time, far more concerned with our plight. There is a massive difference between leaving a club to go to a rival in the same league and City, which is why you chose that example instead of another manager that left for a better job. There are a host of like for like examples, feel free to use one and I will probably tell you that there was little that manager did wrong by taking the move. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 22:49]
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The reason I used the Sol Campbell scenario, was to illustrate that if you take biased, irrational emotions out of it, it becomes a perfectly sensible move that Tottenham fans had no right to be aggrieved about.
It’s an extreme example, but it’s a good example of why a cold, clinical approach doesn’t always tell the whole story in football. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:55 - Jun 29 with 912 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:52 - Jun 29 by Darran |
You can’t debate with someone that’s never wrong. |
What am I wrong about?
Not being able to tell someone they are wrong when they aren’t doesn’t constitute them being a troll.
Shall we discuss what I think makes you a troll? | |
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