| David Davis + Boris on 22:48 - Jul 24 with 2690 views | BucksRanger |
Politics - piece of cake.
Only reasons politicians can't handle it - they've all forgotten how to be truthful. |  | |  |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:48 - Jul 24 with 2690 views | distortR |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:25 - Jul 24 by BucksRanger |
Soft - not really leaving.
Hard - leaving. |
soft - pointless
hard - painful
It's all politricks. The rich will still be rich, and I won't be. [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 6:32]
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| David Davis + Boris on 22:49 - Jul 24 with 2689 views | QPR_Jim |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:21 - Jul 24 by Sharpy36 |
care to explain the main definition of soft and hard then, so i`m clear. |
They're the two extremes of a spectrum I guess with soft being leaving the EU while remaining in customs union etc and hard being completely removed and on WTO terms for trade etc. Reality is there a many variations between the two extremes but it's easier to say soft/hard as a shortcut just as it was as easier to just say leave in the referendum rather than giving any indication of how. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 23:04 - Jul 24 with 2659 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:49 - Jul 24 by QPR_Jim |
They're the two extremes of a spectrum I guess with soft being leaving the EU while remaining in customs union etc and hard being completely removed and on WTO terms for trade etc. Reality is there a many variations between the two extremes but it's easier to say soft/hard as a shortcut just as it was as easier to just say leave in the referendum rather than giving any indication of how. |
Serious question if we'd stayed in the customs union but left the EU what would we be able to do that we cannot do now. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 23:18 - Jul 24 with 2644 views | Sharpy36 |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:49 - Jul 24 by QPR_Jim |
They're the two extremes of a spectrum I guess with soft being leaving the EU while remaining in customs union etc and hard being completely removed and on WTO terms for trade etc. Reality is there a many variations between the two extremes but it's easier to say soft/hard as a shortcut just as it was as easier to just say leave in the referendum rather than giving any indication of how. |
But staying in the CU, SM, being governed by the ECJ, and we may as well throw the CAP and CFP in there for good measure all have elements in them that cover the broad spectrum why us thick racist, bigoted little Englanders wanted to leave. Which is why staying in them in part or in full will go against the referendum result. I believe those who fully understood what they were voting for were told on many occasions that we would go to WTO, i know i did.
If i may i would also just pick up on one of Krops points regarding the lies being told, you will remember the likes of Osbourne, Carney and the IMF to name a few predicted the end to life as we know it, but we still voted out. Being told prices would go through the roof, we would all lose our jobs and homes. OK we haven`t left yet and this might turn out to be true, it`s not though is it. [Post edited 24 Jul 2018 23:41]
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| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| David Davis + Boris on 23:45 - Jul 24 with 2617 views | QPR_Jim |
| David Davis + Boris on 23:18 - Jul 24 by Sharpy36 |
But staying in the CU, SM, being governed by the ECJ, and we may as well throw the CAP and CFP in there for good measure all have elements in them that cover the broad spectrum why us thick racist, bigoted little Englanders wanted to leave. Which is why staying in them in part or in full will go against the referendum result. I believe those who fully understood what they were voting for were told on many occasions that we would go to WTO, i know i did.
If i may i would also just pick up on one of Krops points regarding the lies being told, you will remember the likes of Osbourne, Carney and the IMF to name a few predicted the end to life as we know it, but we still voted out. Being told prices would go through the roof, we would all lose our jobs and homes. OK we haven`t left yet and this might turn out to be true, it`s not though is it. [Post edited 24 Jul 2018 23:41]
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Sorry to be the guy that quotes your previous posts but "We had one vote of which the question posed to the nation was quite clear and straight forward. Leave or stay, nothing to the right, nothing to the left."
It was clear, two options, but nothing about how to leave.... Leave won the vote but not everyone who voted leave will have the same vision and the 48% who wanted to remain also need to be considered when moving forward if we're ever to be a united country again.
"those who fully understood what they were voting for were told on many occasions that we would go to WTO, i know i did" - so you admit that a certain section of the leave vote didn't fully understand. Perhaps they weren't a vigorous in their research as you and got swayed by nonsense written on a bus or by spending money illegally on targeted facebook adds that where designed to sway people who were undecided? Democracy eh.
Thankfully nobody has called you a thick racist (we'll save that for John Terry) and glad we're moving away from the days of remainers being traitors/unpatriotic as well and seem to be able to discuss the topic without the insults. We all want what's best for the country. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 09:49 - Jul 25 with 2533 views | robith |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:25 - Jul 24 by BucksRanger |
Soft - not really leaving.
Hard - leaving. |
Soft - copying the models of how other countries interact with the EU, an approach cited in the early parts of the referendum campaign (when Leave were losing before they switched to focusing solely on immigration) by numerous Leave campaigners such as Hannan, Farage and Gove repeatedly
Hard - throwing ourselves into the abyss on a dice roll and hoping there's a big soft mattress at the bottom. There might be, but it seems unlikely |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 09:57 - Jul 25 with 2516 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| David Davis + Boris on 21:51 - Jul 24 by kropotkin41 |
Now we could examine this notion of "can't accept democracy" if you'd like:
1. We had a referendum and on the basis of the result we joined the EEC.
2. The 2016 referendum was a consultative referendum which in no way bound Parliament or the Government to Brexit.
3. No even half decently run representative democracy conducts crucial constitutional referendums on the basis of a simple majority. Such a change would normally, sensibly require a two thirds majority.
4. In case you haven't noticed or they didn't mention it in whichever newspaper you look at, the Leave campaign f*cking cheated. They overspent and that's the very least of it. Who is it that doesn't respect democracy?
5. Also, if the Leave side are so sure of their case then let's have a referendum on the "final deal" and see if we want it.......... because I tell you what you'll be struggling to find anything that was said by the Leave side in the referendum campaign that was actually true, so what did all the poor deluded f*ckers who voted Leave actually vote for? Other than, that is, to make c nuts like Rees-Mogg rich?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/24/no-deal-brexit-poorer-jaco [Post edited 24 Jul 2018 21:54]
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1. We had a referendum and on the basis of the result we joined the EEC.
Yes the EEC but never explained what that would become, so those that voted then were never fully informed... Right? [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 9:58]
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| David Davis + Boris on 10:04 - Jul 25 with 2517 views | queensparker |
| David Davis + Boris on 09:49 - Jul 25 by robith |
Soft - copying the models of how other countries interact with the EU, an approach cited in the early parts of the referendum campaign (when Leave were losing before they switched to focusing solely on immigration) by numerous Leave campaigners such as Hannan, Farage and Gove repeatedly
Hard - throwing ourselves into the abyss on a dice roll and hoping there's a big soft mattress at the bottom. There might be, but it seems unlikely |
"Hard - throwing ourselves into the abyss on a dice roll and hoping there's a big soft mattress at the bottom. There might be, but it seems unlikely"
There isn't. Going out with no deal in March will be a 100%, nailed-on disaster for the country for a long, long time to come. We will be tearing up the entire administrative and legal framework of the country with zero preparation. It's like we're declaring war on ourselves. The only thing our politicians are doing is working out who they can blame next for how badly they've f--ked this up. Every business and legal team I deal with are having to work out how they're going to deal with what's coming, and none of the news is good.
We definitely need to leave the EU as that has been decided by a democratic vote, but not like this. This way, nobody wins. It's complete collective f--king madness that we're even at this point. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:15 - Jul 25 with 2497 views | stevec |
| David Davis + Boris on 09:49 - Jul 25 by robith |
Soft - copying the models of how other countries interact with the EU, an approach cited in the early parts of the referendum campaign (when Leave were losing before they switched to focusing solely on immigration) by numerous Leave campaigners such as Hannan, Farage and Gove repeatedly
Hard - throwing ourselves into the abyss on a dice roll and hoping there's a big soft mattress at the bottom. There might be, but it seems unlikely |
You'll probably get the Soft Brexit you want so don't complain when the following happens;
1) Low wage immigration will continue to flourish, around the +300,000 mark year on year.
2) Wage increases will subsequently remain incredibly low (laws of supply and demand).
3) House prices will continue to rise and stay far out of reach of those affected by 2).
Again (laws of supply and demand).
Now you might argue that a hard Brexit won't necessarily make any difference, but you can be damn sure a soft Brexit will leave the young amongst you up the same proverbial shÃt creek without a paddle for the rest of your days.
I voted Leave precisely for those reasons. In actual fact a soft Brexit will suit a large proportion of my 'asset rich' generation down to the ground. As such, I probably shouldn't give a flying fúck, but I do.
Think radically, this cosy cartel is not serving younger generations any good here or anywhere within the EU. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:27 - Jul 25 with 2492 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:25 - Jul 24 by BucksRanger |
Soft - not really leaving.
Hard - leaving. |
Hard Brexit - already happened, fait accompli.
Soft Brexit - where the UK will be in 30 years; where it could have been in two years without having bummed itself in the gob for three decades first, had it had a united government with an interest in the wellbeing of its citizens. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 10:40 - Jul 25 with 2466 views | robith |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:15 - Jul 25 by stevec |
You'll probably get the Soft Brexit you want so don't complain when the following happens;
1) Low wage immigration will continue to flourish, around the +300,000 mark year on year.
2) Wage increases will subsequently remain incredibly low (laws of supply and demand).
3) House prices will continue to rise and stay far out of reach of those affected by 2).
Again (laws of supply and demand).
Now you might argue that a hard Brexit won't necessarily make any difference, but you can be damn sure a soft Brexit will leave the young amongst you up the same proverbial shÃt creek without a paddle for the rest of your days.
I voted Leave precisely for those reasons. In actual fact a soft Brexit will suit a large proportion of my 'asset rich' generation down to the ground. As such, I probably shouldn't give a flying fúck, but I do.
Think radically, this cosy cartel is not serving younger generations any good here or anywhere within the EU. |
Well, I don't think we will get a soft brexit actually steve, because I think there will be civil disorder, or Moog and his cohort will coup May and force us down a hard brexit route. Part of me even thinks it's good because it looks like certainly in the short to medium term it will lead to a healthy dose of economic catastrophe, and if the Tories carry it out, they'll probably never get elected ever again, and will clear the way for the kind of socialist government I've always wanted, unencumbered with the EU's anti nationalisation regimes.
So I don't think you know what I want steve, but all three of those problems are solvable with legislation!
I know you essentially don't believe in government, so you probably hadn't considered that, but by raising the minimum wage to a living wage, penalising employers who exploit immigrant labour (never get why it's always the fault of the immigrant, not the capitalist who takes advantage of them?) and by building more housing.
In fact, house pricing is the most difficult because those who own already want to keep the price high so want to disincentivise building so often pretend immigration causes house price rises when actually it's because house building, and particularly social housing, has basically evaporated.
Your concern my generation is touching though, although I look at your reading of the situation, and as ever, am totally flummoxed at how you have looked at what's going on and reached the conclusions you have | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 11:15 - Jul 25 with 2432 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:40 - Jul 25 by robith |
Well, I don't think we will get a soft brexit actually steve, because I think there will be civil disorder, or Moog and his cohort will coup May and force us down a hard brexit route. Part of me even thinks it's good because it looks like certainly in the short to medium term it will lead to a healthy dose of economic catastrophe, and if the Tories carry it out, they'll probably never get elected ever again, and will clear the way for the kind of socialist government I've always wanted, unencumbered with the EU's anti nationalisation regimes.
So I don't think you know what I want steve, but all three of those problems are solvable with legislation!
I know you essentially don't believe in government, so you probably hadn't considered that, but by raising the minimum wage to a living wage, penalising employers who exploit immigrant labour (never get why it's always the fault of the immigrant, not the capitalist who takes advantage of them?) and by building more housing.
In fact, house pricing is the most difficult because those who own already want to keep the price high so want to disincentivise building so often pretend immigration causes house price rises when actually it's because house building, and particularly social housing, has basically evaporated.
Your concern my generation is touching though, although I look at your reading of the situation, and as ever, am totally flummoxed at how you have looked at what's going on and reached the conclusions you have |
... and to add, that you may prefer a high-wage, high-protection, high-productivity economy with correspondingly higher unemployment and particularly youth unemployment (e.g. France), or you may prefer a lower-wage, lower-protection, lower-productivity economy with lower unemployment (and lower youth unemployment), and you may choose the latter when you need to get people out of long-term unemployment because you can't afford their benefits after a crash; but to suggest that the choice is anything to do with EU membership marks you as a troll or a mug. [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 11:16]
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| David Davis + Boris on 11:36 - Jul 25 with 2389 views | robith |
| David Davis + Boris on 11:15 - Jul 25 by hopphoops |
... and to add, that you may prefer a high-wage, high-protection, high-productivity economy with correspondingly higher unemployment and particularly youth unemployment (e.g. France), or you may prefer a lower-wage, lower-protection, lower-productivity economy with lower unemployment (and lower youth unemployment), and you may choose the latter when you need to get people out of long-term unemployment because you can't afford their benefits after a crash; but to suggest that the choice is anything to do with EU membership marks you as a troll or a mug. [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 11:16]
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it this aimed at me or steve? | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 11:45 - Jul 25 with 2377 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 11:36 - Jul 25 by robith |
it this aimed at me or steve? |
At Steve - I was just adding to your post; it drives me nuts when policies that are clearly straight out of Westminster get laid at the feet of the EU. If people want the UK to "stand alone" then fair enough but if they think it will help in any way to solve any of the problems they've cited, they've got mush between the ears. | |
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| David Davis + Boris on 19:26 - Jul 25 with 2199 views | QPR_John |
I cannot be hearing this right it seems to suggest that we could be barred from trading with anyone. On a similar topic O'Brian seemed to be having an orgasm over the idea that we are stockpiling food and drugs. I would never phone the patronising gentleman but would have loved to ask him why we need to stockpile such items. Surely the blessed EU would not stand by and see this country starve and it's sick die through lack of drugs. [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 19:30]
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| David Davis + Boris on 19:43 - Jul 25 with 2177 views | Maggsinho |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:26 - Jul 25 by QPR_John |
I cannot be hearing this right it seems to suggest that we could be barred from trading with anyone. On a similar topic O'Brian seemed to be having an orgasm over the idea that we are stockpiling food and drugs. I would never phone the patronising gentleman but would have loved to ask him why we need to stockpile such items. Surely the blessed EU would not stand by and see this country starve and it's sick die through lack of drugs. [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 19:30]
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So we leave the EU, and then have to rely on aid, from the EU? |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 21:30 - Jul 25 with 2125 views | kropotkin41 |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:26 - Jul 25 by QPR_John |
I cannot be hearing this right it seems to suggest that we could be barred from trading with anyone. On a similar topic O'Brian seemed to be having an orgasm over the idea that we are stockpiling food and drugs. I would never phone the patronising gentleman but would have loved to ask him why we need to stockpile such items. Surely the blessed EU would not stand by and see this country starve and it's sick die through lack of drugs. [Post edited 25 Jul 2018 19:30]
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I don't think the point was that we'll be barred, the point is that there is absolutely no way that anyone will give is the same terms that the EU enjoys. Trade deals are ALWAYS one-sided with the most powerful side dictating the terms....... we are about to voluntarily dropout of the Premier League, future fixtures will be played on the waste ground behind the pub........ coats for goalposts. This isn't just me......... have a look at the letter to the FT by the retired chair of Lloyds of London.
https://www.ft.com/content/e415828e-8e8b-11e8-bb8f-a6a2f7bca546 |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| David Davis + Boris on 22:31 - Jul 25 with 2062 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:43 - Jul 25 by Maggsinho |
So we leave the EU, and then have to rely on aid, from the EU? |
You know very well I am not talking about aid. Why does leaving the EU mean we will be short of food and drugs. We need something somebody else has something to sell always has been that way and always will.
In the early days after the referendum May suggested we might withhold security information and there was rightly an uproar but when the EU do the same it is good negotiating practice. They threaten to stop our planes flying over their airspace and not a whimper. We threaten to withhold payment and we are the villains. Double standards somewhere. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:48 - Jul 25 with 2053 views | Maggsinho |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:31 - Jul 25 by QPR_John |
You know very well I am not talking about aid. Why does leaving the EU mean we will be short of food and drugs. We need something somebody else has something to sell always has been that way and always will.
In the early days after the referendum May suggested we might withhold security information and there was rightly an uproar but when the EU do the same it is good negotiating practice. They threaten to stop our planes flying over their airspace and not a whimper. We threaten to withhold payment and we are the villains. Double standards somewhere. |
In your words:
“Surely the blessed EU would not stand by and see this country starve and it's sick die through lack of drugs”
Sure sounds like aid to me, but anyway if that’s not what you meant fair enough.
As to why we’ll be short of food, well we import 31% of our food from the EU which would now be held up at the border. Drugs along rely on a vast supply chain. And this isn’t just me being alarmist it’s what the government is talking about at the moment!
We’ll no longer be part of the EU open skies agreement meaning there is no agreement for British planes to fly without new agreements. If you’re an airlines captain and the company lawyer is telling you that you can’t fly because you don’t have any insurance it’s immaterial if you think it’s double standards, it’s the position we’ve put ourselves in. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 06:20 - Jul 26 with 1965 views | derbyhoop |
| David Davis + Boris on 23:18 - Jul 24 by Sharpy36 |
But staying in the CU, SM, being governed by the ECJ, and we may as well throw the CAP and CFP in there for good measure all have elements in them that cover the broad spectrum why us thick racist, bigoted little Englanders wanted to leave. Which is why staying in them in part or in full will go against the referendum result. I believe those who fully understood what they were voting for were told on many occasions that we would go to WTO, i know i did.
If i may i would also just pick up on one of Krops points regarding the lies being told, you will remember the likes of Osbourne, Carney and the IMF to name a few predicted the end to life as we know it, but we still voted out. Being told prices would go through the roof, we would all lose our jobs and homes. OK we haven`t left yet and this might turn out to be true, it`s not though is it. [Post edited 24 Jul 2018 23:41]
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If you fully understood what you were voting for then you can probably explain :-
What Euratom does?
Why EASA is so important to the aviation industry?
How you can take back control of the UK border without breaking the Good Friday Agreement
What benefit the European Medicines Agency, which will move from London to Amsterdam, brings to the UK
Similarly for the European Banking Authority, moving to Paris
How Erasmus harms UK students
How EU chemical regulation works
How JIT manufacturing works with customs controls
How stopping free movement of UK citizens is a benefit
How you negotiate 759 treaties with 168 countries in 8 months when you make zero progress in 25 months.
The gravity effect of trade agreements and why ignoring the gravity effect will not damage trade with our closest neighbours
Don't get me wrong, the EU is far from perfect, but all the above, and more, are elements of a relationship that has been growing for 45 years and will be destroyed in 2. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| David Davis + Boris on 06:31 - Jul 26 with 1958 views | distortR |
| David Davis + Boris on 06:20 - Jul 26 by derbyhoop |
If you fully understood what you were voting for then you can probably explain :-
What Euratom does?
Why EASA is so important to the aviation industry?
How you can take back control of the UK border without breaking the Good Friday Agreement
What benefit the European Medicines Agency, which will move from London to Amsterdam, brings to the UK
Similarly for the European Banking Authority, moving to Paris
How Erasmus harms UK students
How EU chemical regulation works
How JIT manufacturing works with customs controls
How stopping free movement of UK citizens is a benefit
How you negotiate 759 treaties with 168 countries in 8 months when you make zero progress in 25 months.
The gravity effect of trade agreements and why ignoring the gravity effect will not damage trade with our closest neighbours
Don't get me wrong, the EU is far from perfect, but all the above, and more, are elements of a relationship that has been growing for 45 years and will be destroyed in 2. |
Ah, but did the people who voted remain understand all these and agree with them when they voted to stay?!!
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| David Davis + Boris on 08:47 - Jul 26 with 1917 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 06:31 - Jul 26 by distortR |
Ah, but did the people who voted remain understand all these and agree with them when they voted to stay?!!
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Do you understand how a helicopter feathering hinge works? Would you care when you need the air ambulance?
i was going to  you but I've just seen your so  | |
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| David Davis + Boris on 09:00 - Jul 26 with 1897 views | FDC |
If you've never been involved in antifacist organising now would be a great time to start.
"Boris Johnson Has Been Privately Talking To Steve Bannon As They Plot Their Next Moves
One is a potential frontrunner to be the next UK prime minister; the other wants to help nationalists win in Europe"
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/lesterfeder/boris-johnson-steve-bannon?__tw |  | | |
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