| Corona Virus 22:39 - Mar 7 with 583438 views | SgorioFruit |
Sorry for new thread,
But how bad do you lot reckon it’s going to get here in the UK?
I just been watching the news. Looking nasty in Italy. |  |
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| Corona Virus on 20:34 - Apr 21 with 2475 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Corona Virus on 16:48 - Apr 21 by Pegojack |
Sir Simon McDonald, senior foreign office civil servant, confirmed today when answering questions in front of a parliamentary select committee, that the government took a political decision not to take part in the EU project to source ventilators.
This directly contradicts a statement from Michael Gove that the government missed the deadline to participate because of a mix up in e-mail communications. He said this in front of the whole nation on a BBC Breakfast news report a couple of weeks ago.
This proves two things. 1) Gove is a lying Tory cúnt (who knew?) and 2) it is a very good thing that parliament is back and holding these despicable, incompetent shysters to account. [Post edited 21 Apr 2020 16:54]
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McDonald has now completely reversed the evidence he gave to the Committee today, In writing. That’s not a good look for a permanent secretary. |  |
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| Corona Virus on 20:43 - Apr 21 with 2460 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Corona Virus on 20:34 - Apr 21 by exiledclaseboy |
McDonald has now completely reversed the evidence he gave to the Committee today, In writing. That’s not a good look for a permanent secretary. |
And as was the case for Hancock, McDonald should now be sacked.
This stuff is way too important for personal spats. |  | | |
| Corona Virus on 20:44 - Apr 21 with 2456 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Corona Virus on 20:43 - Apr 21 by londonlisa2001 |
And as was the case for Hancock, McDonald should now be sacked.
This stuff is way too important for personal spats. |
I don’t imagine for one minute that McDonald’s letter was voluntary. | |
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| Corona Virus on 20:47 - Apr 21 with 2445 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Corona Virus on 20:44 - Apr 21 by exiledclaseboy |
I don’t imagine for one minute that McDonald’s letter was voluntary. |
I realise that. But he has signed it. If he has that little backbone he should go, | | | |
| Corona Virus on 20:50 - Apr 21 with 2440 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Corona Virus on 17:06 - Apr 21 by Catullus |
If you have experts who have different opinions, how can you be sure who is right? Bojo made the best choice he could, unless you are suggesting he really did want thousands more to die?
Hindsight is wonderful, if only we had hindsight before the event! |
No, he didn't, he listened to the experts and went with herd immunity, against the experts of practically every other country in the world except Sweden. | | | |
| Corona Virus on 20:52 - Apr 21 with 2435 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Corona Virus on 20:47 - Apr 21 by londonlisa2001 |
I realise that. But he has signed it. If he has that little backbone he should go, |
Imagine this scenario. McDonald knew he’d be made to “correct” his evidence but the initial words to the committee are now a matter of record and widely reported. So job done. Perhaps. I can’t imagine a well briefed and experienced permanent secretary accidentally misrepresented the government position to a parliamentary committee in such an egregious way. | |
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| Corona Virus on 20:55 - Apr 21 with 2428 views | waynekerr55 |
| Corona Virus on 20:52 - Apr 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Imagine this scenario. McDonald knew he’d be made to “correct” his evidence but the initial words to the committee are now a matter of record and widely reported. So job done. Perhaps. I can’t imagine a well briefed and experienced permanent secretary accidentally misrepresented the government position to a parliamentary committee in such an egregious way. |
It's a frightening state of affairs to be honest Clasey. These swivel eyed cúnts are beyond reproach. |  |
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| Corona Virus on 20:55 - Apr 21 with 2426 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Corona Virus on 20:52 - Apr 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Imagine this scenario. McDonald knew he’d be made to “correct” his evidence but the initial words to the committee are now a matter of record and widely reported. So job done. Perhaps. I can’t imagine a well briefed and experienced permanent secretary accidentally misrepresented the government position to a parliamentary committee in such an egregious way. |
But in withdrawing it, it’s not public record. It’s corrected in the public record.
The truth will emerge from the EU side of things I imagine.
McDonald should, if telling the truth, have stuck to it. There’s no chance in hell they could sack him if he’s telling the truth. Or more importantly, remove his pension. He would have proof. So stick to your guns,
Some backbone is needed. | | | |
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| Corona Virus on 21:00 - Apr 21 with 2415 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Corona Virus on 20:55 - Apr 21 by londonlisa2001 |
But in withdrawing it, it’s not public record. It’s corrected in the public record.
The truth will emerge from the EU side of things I imagine.
McDonald should, if telling the truth, have stuck to it. There’s no chance in hell they could sack him if he’s telling the truth. Or more importantly, remove his pension. He would have proof. So stick to your guns,
Some backbone is needed. |
The transcript of the evidence session will remain unaltered and published. The correction letter will be published separately as part of the written evidence. I’ve no idea which of them is telling the truth but if you made me bet my house on it I know which side I’d land on. | |
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| Corona Virus on 21:11 - Apr 21 with 2401 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Corona Virus on 20:44 - Apr 21 by exiledclaseboy |
I don’t imagine for one minute that McDonald’s letter was voluntary. |
Does this man look like he is not telling the truth ?
I invite fellow posters to take a look/listen.
All i see is a man telling the truth.
#feckBoris 🤡 |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Corona Virus on 21:41 - Apr 21 with 2373 views | monmouth |
This is bloody weird. I mean he's just trashed himself for good. What threat could possibly cause that? |  |
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| Corona Virus on 22:16 - Apr 21 with 2333 views | PozuelosSideys |
Sounds like either him or somebody in his department has, in technical speak, dropped a bollock. I dont see why a senior sec like that would take the fall for something that was nothing to do with his dept, especially given the history with certain MPs. Throw in the inability of that dept to respond to all these offers of help and equipment we are hearing about, plus the apparent export of this equipment to the EU states as the wholesaler got no reponse, would suggest that whole dept is a clusterfhuck. If it smells like a duck and it sounds like a duck.. |  |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Corona Virus on 22:59 - Apr 21 with 2300 views | chad |
| Corona Virus on 19:28 - Apr 21 by Scotia |
I'm pretty certain the expert advisors weren't in complete agreement that the risk was low to moderate. As I understand Prof Neil Ferguson's suggested a more stringent lock down straight away. In the last meeting Boris missed two usual attendees lost Skype connection before a discussion on moving the UK to a High risk situation from moderate . They have both since said that was the option they supported. Apparently remaining at "moderate" passed by one vote. To me that sounds like a national emergency - in fact it clearly was.
Throughout this escalation in seriousness of the situation he didn't attend a meeting. In fact for two of the five weeks he was on holiday. He was also invisible during the flood incident that hit the country at a similar time, he obviously had better things to do. |
I said they agreed to retain at moderate, not that they all wanted that but it was a majority decision not to raise the threat to high. It was well after that that WHO decided to declare a global pandemic.
If it was agreed it should be classed as a national emergency by the scientific advisors the status would have been changed to high not retained as moderate.
And as conceded even by the Guardian, it is not unusual for PMs not to be present at COBRA meetings but would be expected in a national emergency. Rightly or wrongly this was still classed as a moderate threat at the vote of the experts so would not be classed as a national emergency at any time when Boris was missing those meetings.
Also I have little doubt he would be briefed about the meetings, and it was right the experts play the prime part, the question is which experts are right.
As I have said I am not supporting these decisions. Although without a crystal ball we do not know how this ends when we need to relax containment, that is why I consider wide mask usage so important until we have a vaccine.
I am sure Brexit was still a big issue. I have no idea what other better things he had to do but we have established it was not that tennis match that kept him from CBRA meetings, nor did we send our stockpile to China. |  | | |
| Corona Virus on 23:05 - Apr 21 with 2292 views | chad |
| Corona Virus on 20:55 - Apr 21 by waynekerr55 |
It's a frightening state of affairs to be honest Clasey. These swivel eyed cúnts are beyond reproach. |
That is a bit harsh on our most senior civil servants, but sure their mahoosive index linked pensions will provide some solace | | | |
| Corona Virus on 23:17 - Apr 21 with 2274 views | Kilkennyjack |
Liar, liar pants on fire .... | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Corona Virus on 23:55 - Apr 21 with 2237 views | majorraglan |
| Corona Virus on 22:59 - Apr 21 by chad |
I said they agreed to retain at moderate, not that they all wanted that but it was a majority decision not to raise the threat to high. It was well after that that WHO decided to declare a global pandemic.
If it was agreed it should be classed as a national emergency by the scientific advisors the status would have been changed to high not retained as moderate.
And as conceded even by the Guardian, it is not unusual for PMs not to be present at COBRA meetings but would be expected in a national emergency. Rightly or wrongly this was still classed as a moderate threat at the vote of the experts so would not be classed as a national emergency at any time when Boris was missing those meetings.
Also I have little doubt he would be briefed about the meetings, and it was right the experts play the prime part, the question is which experts are right.
As I have said I am not supporting these decisions. Although without a crystal ball we do not know how this ends when we need to relax containment, that is why I consider wide mask usage so important until we have a vaccine.
I am sure Brexit was still a big issue. I have no idea what other better things he had to do but we have established it was not that tennis match that kept him from CBRA meetings, nor did we send our stockpile to China. |
On the 23rd of January the Chinese imposed a complete lockdown on Wuhan a city of 11m people, it was pretty much headline news wherever you went.
On the 30th of January the Government raised the threat level to moderate. Boris was allegedly having regular personal briefings in Feb.
On the 21st of February there was a further meeting and the threat level was held at moderate.
On the 12th of March it was raised to high. Seeing what was going on in the news, a moderate threat from a pandemic should have been enough to focus everyone in Governments mind that this was a huge issue.
The response at a number of levels just hasn’t been good enough. We have been let down.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci/special [Post edited 22 Apr 2020 21:30]
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| Corona Virus on 03:00 - Apr 22 with 2183 views | Jack123 |
| Corona Virus on 23:55 - Apr 21 by majorraglan |
On the 23rd of January the Chinese imposed a complete lockdown on Wuhan a city of 11m people, it was pretty much headline news wherever you went.
On the 30th of January the Government raised the threat level to moderate. Boris was allegedly having regular personal briefings in Feb.
On the 21st of February there was a further meeting and the threat level was held at moderate.
On the 12th of March it was raised to high. Seeing what was going on in the news, a moderate threat from a pandemic should have been enough to focus everyone in Governments mind that this was a huge issue.
The response at a number of levels just hasn’t been good enough. We have been let down.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci/special [Post edited 22 Apr 2020 21:30]
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I hope heads will roll when this is over, after reading that Reuters article!
What really pees me off, they still seem to be adapting the same kind of stance!!
Heard it loads since they have ferked up, we listen to the scientists, take the right measures, at the right time!
They haven't got a clue!!
[Post edited 22 Apr 2020 3:06]
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| Corona Virus on 07:49 - Apr 22 with 2081 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Corona Virus on 20:34 - Apr 21 by exiledclaseboy |
McDonald has now completely reversed the evidence he gave to the Committee today, In writing. That’s not a good look for a permanent secretary. |
You have not read the letter properly.
Everything is carefully worded to the extent that he appears to be , well, taking the piss ... ?
At one point he says that Hancock has made the govt position very clear ‘going forward.’ Its deliberate. Hancock has NOT made the govt position clear to date ? Why add ‘going forward’ ?
Also govt did not make a political decision ‘whether to join or not’... because it simply made the political decision not to join.
I pinched all this letter analysis from here ...😎
[Post edited 22 Apr 2020 7:50]
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| Beware of the Risen People
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| Corona Virus on 08:31 - Apr 22 with 2041 views | waynekerr55 |
| Corona Virus on 23:05 - Apr 21 by chad |
That is a bit harsh on our most senior civil servants, but sure their mahoosive index linked pensions will provide some solace |
Genuine question - you think the conduct of this government is appropriate? You'd be happy for ministers to have full control and nobody guiding them nor being there to provide advice and guidance? | |
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| Corona Virus on 08:43 - Apr 22 with 2024 views | karnataka |
| Corona Virus on 07:49 - Apr 22 by Kilkennyjack |
You have not read the letter properly.
Everything is carefully worded to the extent that he appears to be , well, taking the piss ... ?
At one point he says that Hancock has made the govt position very clear ‘going forward.’ Its deliberate. Hancock has NOT made the govt position clear to date ? Why add ‘going forward’ ?
Also govt did not make a political decision ‘whether to join or not’... because it simply made the political decision not to join.
I pinched all this letter analysis from here ...😎
[Post edited 22 Apr 2020 7:50]
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That letter is just complete and utter embarrassment. |  | | |
| Corona Virus on 08:48 - Apr 22 with 2016 views | Dr_Winston |
| Corona Virus on 23:55 - Apr 21 by majorraglan |
On the 23rd of January the Chinese imposed a complete lockdown on Wuhan a city of 11m people, it was pretty much headline news wherever you went.
On the 30th of January the Government raised the threat level to moderate. Boris was allegedly having regular personal briefings in Feb.
On the 21st of February there was a further meeting and the threat level was held at moderate.
On the 12th of March it was raised to high. Seeing what was going on in the news, a moderate threat from a pandemic should have been enough to focus everyone in Governments mind that this was a huge issue.
The response at a number of levels just hasn’t been good enough. We have been let down.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci/special [Post edited 22 Apr 2020 21:30]
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The threat level was raised to high the same day that the WHO declared a pandemic.
http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-emergencies/coronavirus-covid-19 |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Corona Virus on 10:22 - Apr 22 with 1957 views | Catullus |
| Corona Virus on 20:55 - Apr 21 by londonlisa2001 |
But in withdrawing it, it’s not public record. It’s corrected in the public record.
The truth will emerge from the EU side of things I imagine.
McDonald should, if telling the truth, have stuck to it. There’s no chance in hell they could sack him if he’s telling the truth. Or more importantly, remove his pension. He would have proof. So stick to your guns,
Some backbone is needed. |
Why do people have so much faith that the EU tells us the truth? They are politicians too.
Coming at it from another angle, he has either lied to Committee or has lied in this letter, either way he has lied and is that what we want from our government?
If what he said to committee was true and he can prove it then I agree, stick by it. All he has done really is cause a commotion, there will be arguments now about what the truth is and now McDonald will be accused simply of protecting his job and his pension by this withdrawal.
I don't doubt he was pressured into the withdrawal but if he'd shown 'more backbone' what effect would it have had? | |
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| Corona Virus on 10:40 - Apr 22 with 1939 views | Scotia |
| Corona Virus on 22:59 - Apr 21 by chad |
I said they agreed to retain at moderate, not that they all wanted that but it was a majority decision not to raise the threat to high. It was well after that that WHO decided to declare a global pandemic.
If it was agreed it should be classed as a national emergency by the scientific advisors the status would have been changed to high not retained as moderate.
And as conceded even by the Guardian, it is not unusual for PMs not to be present at COBRA meetings but would be expected in a national emergency. Rightly or wrongly this was still classed as a moderate threat at the vote of the experts so would not be classed as a national emergency at any time when Boris was missing those meetings.
Also I have little doubt he would be briefed about the meetings, and it was right the experts play the prime part, the question is which experts are right.
As I have said I am not supporting these decisions. Although without a crystal ball we do not know how this ends when we need to relax containment, that is why I consider wide mask usage so important until we have a vaccine.
I am sure Brexit was still a big issue. I have no idea what other better things he had to do but we have established it was not that tennis match that kept him from CBRA meetings, nor did we send our stockpile to China. |
It was raised to moderate from low after the first meeting, clearly indicating it was a worsening situation, I would suggest that at that point BJ should have attended as it was clearly heading to an emergency situation as there is no vaccine or treatment. The classification as a global pandemic by the WHO is irrelevant really, by that time in the UK it was too late, and BJ should be concerned primarlily about the situation in the UK.
Some scientific advisors apparently believed it should be a national emergency in January, by a majority vote (if that's what they do) that would have been confirmed in February had it not been for a technological failure. Boris wasn't there. He was on holiday.
Anyway by the time it was considered a national emergency and Boris decided it needed his attention and Cobra attendance it was actively spreading in the community and too late to do anything about it aside from deal with the sick and dead. It was actually a national catastrophe by this point.
I'd like to think he wasn't "briefed" about the meeting but he would have been given and read, at the minimum, very detailed notes. This should have been enough for him to understand the situation. He either didn't or couldn't be bothered too - neither of those is good enough and I can't imagine any other PM in my lifetime not acting on this situation much earlier. | | | |
| Corona Virus on 10:47 - Apr 22 with 1933 views | chad |
| Corona Virus on 08:31 - Apr 22 by waynekerr55 |
Genuine question - you think the conduct of this government is appropriate? You'd be happy for ministers to have full control and nobody guiding them nor being there to provide advice and guidance? |
Hey man not me that called them ‘to quote yourself ‘swivel eyed cúnts’
Perhaps straight name calling not the most enlightened way to get a message over, didn’t work very well during Brexit with all the kicking and screaming and hubris, In fact could be a significant contributor to our current situation. When people seem to think they are better than others and can just abuse them, you tend to get a bit of kick back.
I wonder if that expat poster on here who is continually calling the government here by a similar name at every opportunity is doing likewise on social media in his home of Spain, when even the ‘revered’ Guardian reports the complaints of their government being slow to act, patients laying on floor and NHS using bin bags for PPE. Of course expats would have strong personal cause to be against Brexit, although amusingly another on here who hated Brexit wished they had all been kicked out of Spain.
We are in a world pandemic, lives are at stake, of course it is going to be difficult and there are going to be shortages and mistakes.
Do we ignore them - no
Do we address them - yes
Is abuse helpful - no
Is learning what needs to be addressed to move forward and being able to raise and strongly push such issues in a constructive manner a good thing - yes
Is raising then parking mistakes we can do nothing about (but learn from) for later review a good thing - yes
Does calling those running the country ‘swivel eyed cúnts’ add gravitas to important points you may be making - IMHO no
Genuine question - have you ever known a government not to make mistakes, some much bigger than others and most within living memory not at a time of such extreme crises? How much better do you think the alternative would have fared?
‘You'd be happy for ministers to have full control and nobody guiding them nor being there to provide advice and guidance?’
Did I suggest that, it was you calling our governing body ‘swivel eyed cúnts’. As can been seen in this incident the relationship between the massive civil service departments that provide the administrative functioning and expert advice and the government is a complex but necessary one. Nor am I unfamiliar with many of the strengths and weaknesses of the civil service or its required non political nature :) .
I am also aware of the amount of resource, detail and planning that needs to go into each one of, for a single instance the employment schemes introduced. We cannot do everything at once we must deal with the most immediate needs and concentrate on essential developments and ignore extraneous noise.
And most of all let’s not make things up, do you think people on here would be happy if it was said Keir must have been in cahoots with Jimmy Saville helping him evade trial? Yet he was forced to apologise for failings in his organisation contributing to that whilst he was at the helm. | | | |
| Corona Virus on 10:53 - Apr 22 with 2441 views | chad |
| Corona Virus on 10:22 - Apr 22 by Catullus |
Why do people have so much faith that the EU tells us the truth? They are politicians too.
Coming at it from another angle, he has either lied to Committee or has lied in this letter, either way he has lied and is that what we want from our government?
If what he said to committee was true and he can prove it then I agree, stick by it. All he has done really is cause a commotion, there will be arguments now about what the truth is and now McDonald will be accused simply of protecting his job and his pension by this withdrawal.
I don't doubt he was pressured into the withdrawal but if he'd shown 'more backbone' what effect would it have had? |
There are many truths amongst those in politics and wider government. Even amongst seemingly totally conflicting statements.
The more experienced know to avoid absolute statements as they understand the concept of Boolean logic | | | |
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