By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
I always lusted after a Principia back in the 90s, are they still going? Lovely bikes.
This thread and other considerations are pushing me towards getting something new and retiring my old Specialized Epic. A couple of questions for those in the know: - are disc brakes worth the weight and cost? I find them unattractive but would be doing a fair bit of technical descending (Alpine). - is the step-up from 105 to ultegra (or equivalent) worth the cost?
I'd like to get something from a local shop and have a proper setup of the bike I'll be riding. This is the prettiest I've found, though stretching the budget.
Not sure what happened to Principia. Thought they were taken over for a while but it seems the brand is still around. It's a quick bike and I put a pair of Mavic SSL wheels on which found me another 1 or 2 mph.
About your question. It's worthwhile a) trying to find out the weight of the overall build and b) making it as light as possible. Good shops will weigh the bike for you. As a rule, the lighter the build the higher the price. Heavier bikes are cheaper. The weight of race bikes is governed by a UCI weight limit of 6.8kg and anything at or near this will cost you - a lot. My current bike is 7.8kg and I'm happy with that. But you might want to have in mind a weight cap of say 9.2kg or thereabouts. That said, your bodyweight is relevant. If you weigh say 12 stone, there's a fair chance you'll get a 9kg bike uphill quicker than a 14 stone rider on a 7kg bike.
I ride a carbon Cannondale but for weights and price comparisons check out Canyon's website because when I last checked they publish build weights. They're a direct sales company and you usually get more spec for your money because they don't sell via shops but, you'll need to be confident on sizing before ordering and ideally find someone who will let you have a test ride on their bike.
On brakes, in 2016 I was neutral on caliper v discs and discs had a lot of resistance and they were heavier. I test rode several bikes and the Cannondale I eventually got came with disc brakes. But they are SRAM Red, which are very light. They took a little getting used to as you can brake later and quicker into bends.
Nowadays there's no doubt, caliper brakes are being phased out but you can get great deals on new bikes with caliper brakes. Whereas, disc brakes have become cheaper and to some extent lighter. But, again it depends on the overall build and in all your bikes accessories the cheaper parts in the range will most likely be the heaviest. The disc brakes should be hydraulic at least which call for less pressure than non-hydraulic and it's the sort of thing you'll notice on a long descent. I've ridden both and would recommend disc brakes. But some mates who are far better than me continue to ride and race on calipers and they will even charge down wet alpine descents using caliper brakes on carbon rims.
As for gears. There's nothing wrong with 105 if properly setup. Shimano apply trickle down technology so today's 105 will feature what was once common to top end Dura-Ace designs. But, Ultegra doesn't cost that much more and is probably worth the investment. My son has and races with Ultegra. Whereas my SRAM Red groupset is supposed to be SRAM's equivalent to Shimano Dura Ace and I can tell you that my group set has needed much more fettling than my sons.
It's also worthwhile appreciating that most new bikes come with basic wheels. The manufacturers assume that cyclists will want to upgrade to save weight and go faster. You can spend £2k on a new bike and the wheel value could be as low as £150. But not all manufacturers are equal like this. When I looked to buy for my son I went to Sigma in Kingston and had in mind getting him an intro level Cervelo but, the guys in the shop pointed out that part- for- part the Cannondale SuperSix was a better bike and they were right. It's an amazing bike.
You haven't mentioned bike geometry which you might want to consider. Today, within the 'race bike' definition you can get out-and-out race geometry and endurance geometry. The latter being more relaxed but still quick and ridden in Paris Roubaix and elsewhere. A quick comparison using Cannondale is their SuperSix (which I love) is an out and out race bike. Whereas, their Synapse is their endurance bike. The endurance bikes have slightly shorter top tubes and taller head tubes so the handlebars are nearer and you ride a little more upright. Your age and flexibility and ideas on comfort might inform your choice. All good manufacturers - Canyon, Specialized, Look say will make marques in each area. And then to complicate things more, there are degrees of aggressiveness within both the race and endurance range. In the endurance range, when I last looked, the Synapse was more aggressive than Specialized's equivalent being the Roubaix.
And finally, get someone who knows what they're doing to ensure you get the proper size frame and fit. Good shops should do that for you without having to buy their specialized fitting service.
When it comes to bikes I've done all sorts of devious stuff to stop my wife finding out how much I spent. Getting things delivered to work or friends to order stuff say. But she always finds out. Happy shopping.
I bought a specialized sirrus in 2016, first bike I have owned with disc brakes, would never go back to blocks again, cycle to work and back daily and even managed the London to Brighton in 2017, couldn’t ride for 6 weeks when I did my ankle and went back to a few days of a sore arse when I resumed.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
I bought a specialized sirrus in 2016, first bike I have owned with disc brakes, would never go back to blocks again, cycle to work and back daily and even managed the London to Brighton in 2017, couldn’t ride for 6 weeks when I did my ankle and went back to a few days of a sore arse when I resumed.
Not sure what happened to Principia. Thought they were taken over for a while but it seems the brand is still around. It's a quick bike and I put a pair of Mavic SSL wheels on which found me another 1 or 2 mph.
About your question. It's worthwhile a) trying to find out the weight of the overall build and b) making it as light as possible. Good shops will weigh the bike for you. As a rule, the lighter the build the higher the price. Heavier bikes are cheaper. The weight of race bikes is governed by a UCI weight limit of 6.8kg and anything at or near this will cost you - a lot. My current bike is 7.8kg and I'm happy with that. But you might want to have in mind a weight cap of say 9.2kg or thereabouts. That said, your bodyweight is relevant. If you weigh say 12 stone, there's a fair chance you'll get a 9kg bike uphill quicker than a 14 stone rider on a 7kg bike.
I ride a carbon Cannondale but for weights and price comparisons check out Canyon's website because when I last checked they publish build weights. They're a direct sales company and you usually get more spec for your money because they don't sell via shops but, you'll need to be confident on sizing before ordering and ideally find someone who will let you have a test ride on their bike.
On brakes, in 2016 I was neutral on caliper v discs and discs had a lot of resistance and they were heavier. I test rode several bikes and the Cannondale I eventually got came with disc brakes. But they are SRAM Red, which are very light. They took a little getting used to as you can brake later and quicker into bends.
Nowadays there's no doubt, caliper brakes are being phased out but you can get great deals on new bikes with caliper brakes. Whereas, disc brakes have become cheaper and to some extent lighter. But, again it depends on the overall build and in all your bikes accessories the cheaper parts in the range will most likely be the heaviest. The disc brakes should be hydraulic at least which call for less pressure than non-hydraulic and it's the sort of thing you'll notice on a long descent. I've ridden both and would recommend disc brakes. But some mates who are far better than me continue to ride and race on calipers and they will even charge down wet alpine descents using caliper brakes on carbon rims.
As for gears. There's nothing wrong with 105 if properly setup. Shimano apply trickle down technology so today's 105 will feature what was once common to top end Dura-Ace designs. But, Ultegra doesn't cost that much more and is probably worth the investment. My son has and races with Ultegra. Whereas my SRAM Red groupset is supposed to be SRAM's equivalent to Shimano Dura Ace and I can tell you that my group set has needed much more fettling than my sons.
It's also worthwhile appreciating that most new bikes come with basic wheels. The manufacturers assume that cyclists will want to upgrade to save weight and go faster. You can spend £2k on a new bike and the wheel value could be as low as £150. But not all manufacturers are equal like this. When I looked to buy for my son I went to Sigma in Kingston and had in mind getting him an intro level Cervelo but, the guys in the shop pointed out that part- for- part the Cannondale SuperSix was a better bike and they were right. It's an amazing bike.
You haven't mentioned bike geometry which you might want to consider. Today, within the 'race bike' definition you can get out-and-out race geometry and endurance geometry. The latter being more relaxed but still quick and ridden in Paris Roubaix and elsewhere. A quick comparison using Cannondale is their SuperSix (which I love) is an out and out race bike. Whereas, their Synapse is their endurance bike. The endurance bikes have slightly shorter top tubes and taller head tubes so the handlebars are nearer and you ride a little more upright. Your age and flexibility and ideas on comfort might inform your choice. All good manufacturers - Canyon, Specialized, Look say will make marques in each area. And then to complicate things more, there are degrees of aggressiveness within both the race and endurance range. In the endurance range, when I last looked, the Synapse was more aggressive than Specialized's equivalent being the Roubaix.
And finally, get someone who knows what they're doing to ensure you get the proper size frame and fit. Good shops should do that for you without having to buy their specialized fitting service.
When it comes to bikes I've done all sorts of devious stuff to stop my wife finding out how much I spent. Getting things delivered to work or friends to order stuff say. But she always finds out. Happy shopping.
thanks HH for the detailed reply - lots to mull over! My long answer just got wiped as my batteries ran out so, suffice it to say, much appreciated...
thanks HH for the detailed reply - lots to mull over! My long answer just got wiped as my batteries ran out so, suffice it to say, much appreciated...
No problem. The short answer is test ride and go with the bike that puts a smile on your face. Ultimately I did just that. The test ride was supposed to be 20 minutes but when they called to check my whereabouts, I was many miles away riding and re-riding a couple of testing hills and laughing my head off how good this bike was! It had £1500 off as was the previous years model. Evans had bought a batch off Cannondale and it was the best bike in the shop by some stretch. I also test rode an embarrassingly expensive bike at Sigma's insistence, that I was never going to buy, but didn't get a feel for it anyway. I'd only advocate spending a lot on a good road bike if you're going to seriously use it.
Also have a 20 year old town hack that's worth pennies and is possibly the ugliest bike on the rack but that does its job perfectly.
No problem. The short answer is test ride and go with the bike that puts a smile on your face. Ultimately I did just that. The test ride was supposed to be 20 minutes but when they called to check my whereabouts, I was many miles away riding and re-riding a couple of testing hills and laughing my head off how good this bike was! It had £1500 off as was the previous years model. Evans had bought a batch off Cannondale and it was the best bike in the shop by some stretch. I also test rode an embarrassingly expensive bike at Sigma's insistence, that I was never going to buy, but didn't get a feel for it anyway. I'd only advocate spending a lot on a good road bike if you're going to seriously use it.
Also have a 20 year old town hack that's worth pennies and is possibly the ugliest bike on the rack but that does its job perfectly.
Will definitely add my vote to the Marathon tyres...they are well worth the money. Before lockdown, i was commuting 50-60 miles a week on my bike and probably got one puncture every 6 months, and i cycle on some really crappy roads past a few rubbish dumps in industrial estates etc. loads of glass. The first puncture i got with one was literally a 2 inch nail that somehow went in from the side.
My gf nicknames them nappies, and they are a bit weird wearing them under shorts or trousers, but they do help. dont think it was that exact brand buy there are loads on Amazon.
I'll report back. In the meantime my current ride is stuck on the wrong side of the closed border...
The published link to that article appears to offer a single size frame. The below link seems to offer the full size range.
The SuperSix was remodelled this year so 2020 models can be pricey. 2019 models are still around but have the traditional rounded tubes. I've read that the Evo models have hi-modulus frames but that's worth checking. Hi-mod usually comes at a price and involves using lighter stiffer carbon in different parts of the frame. It's good stuff. Plus, the Evo spec has carbon wheels using their Hollogram design matched with specific tyres. They reckon they've done wind tunnel testing to prove the wheel and tyre combination. This is an example of a bike where you might decide you are happy with the wheels in the original spec.
I have a hi-mod Synapse with carbon wheels and if my wife wasn't looking would have a hi-mod SuperSix too. The Synapse is impressively quick and post surgery I'm more flexible and have removed half the head tube spacers. I'm on my way to removing yet more spacers to be smaller in the wind. It's comfortable and light and I can ride a long time in the drops. Whereas, you can get a super aggressive frame design (think aero bikes which I suspect you may not want or need) and find it looks the part but needs lots of flexibility and core strength to ride in the most efficient position. You'll spot a lot of roadies almost ride with their nose on the floor to be as aero as possible. A friend rides like that. It isn't comfortable for him but he reckons he can put up with it for the duration of race.
Forgot to say there are typically three choices of gears: traditional, semi-compact and compact. The differences are to do with the numbers of teeth in the chainrings at the front and cassette at the back. You divide the teeth numbers on the chainring by those on the cassette at the back to get individual gear ratios. Traditional has say a 53/39 chainring and any variation of cassette but something like 10 to 28. This is aggressive and will be hard work on alpine tours unless you are exceptionally light and fit. Full compact gearing is 50/34 with cassettes of say 11-28 or 11-32. Semi Compact is between this range and is 52/36 and a cassette of say 11-28. SuperSix's are normally semi compact and you have an option of putting on an 11-32 cassette for climbing tours. Gearing choice is personal but everyone can blow their legs on a hard ride and be grateful for those smaller gears that compact provides. My sons SS has semi-compact and he's raced that up Alpe D'Huez in a triathlon there but he's 2.5 stone lighter than me and has stronger legs. Anyone who can ride traditional gearing through alpine areas deserves a bit of respect in my book.
I moved from traditional to compact gearing. For the most part it's fine but you can't work through the whole cassette when in the big ring because the last cassette cogs have big increases in teeth numbers and cause you to spin out. You need to figure that the next higher gears could be in the small chainring and further up the cassette. But, if you had money for Shimano's electric gears, it figures out what you're trying to do and will jump between chainrings to automatically find you the next higher or lower gear which is very clever.
The published link to that article appears to offer a single size frame. The below link seems to offer the full size range.
The SuperSix was remodelled this year so 2020 models can be pricey. 2019 models are still around but have the traditional rounded tubes. I've read that the Evo models have hi-modulus frames but that's worth checking. Hi-mod usually comes at a price and involves using lighter stiffer carbon in different parts of the frame. It's good stuff. Plus, the Evo spec has carbon wheels using their Hollogram design matched with specific tyres. They reckon they've done wind tunnel testing to prove the wheel and tyre combination. This is an example of a bike where you might decide you are happy with the wheels in the original spec.
I have a hi-mod Synapse with carbon wheels and if my wife wasn't looking would have a hi-mod SuperSix too. The Synapse is impressively quick and post surgery I'm more flexible and have removed half the head tube spacers. I'm on my way to removing yet more spacers to be smaller in the wind. It's comfortable and light and I can ride a long time in the drops. Whereas, you can get a super aggressive frame design (think aero bikes which I suspect you may not want or need) and find it looks the part but needs lots of flexibility and core strength to ride in the most efficient position. You'll spot a lot of roadies almost ride with their nose on the floor to be as aero as possible. A friend rides like that. It isn't comfortable for him but he reckons he can put up with it for the duration of race.
Forgot to say there are typically three choices of gears: traditional, semi-compact and compact. The differences are to do with the numbers of teeth in the chainrings at the front and cassette at the back. You divide the teeth numbers on the chainring by those on the cassette at the back to get individual gear ratios. Traditional has say a 53/39 chainring and any variation of cassette but something like 10 to 28. This is aggressive and will be hard work on alpine tours unless you are exceptionally light and fit. Full compact gearing is 50/34 with cassettes of say 11-28 or 11-32. Semi Compact is between this range and is 52/36 and a cassette of say 11-28. SuperSix's are normally semi compact and you have an option of putting on an 11-32 cassette for climbing tours. Gearing choice is personal but everyone can blow their legs on a hard ride and be grateful for those smaller gears that compact provides. My sons SS has semi-compact and he's raced that up Alpe D'Huez in a triathlon there but he's 2.5 stone lighter than me and has stronger legs. Anyone who can ride traditional gearing through alpine areas deserves a bit of respect in my book.
I moved from traditional to compact gearing. For the most part it's fine but you can't work through the whole cassette when in the big ring because the last cassette cogs have big increases in teeth numbers and cause you to spin out. You need to figure that the next higher gears could be in the small chainring and further up the cassette. But, if you had money for Shimano's electric gears, it figures out what you're trying to do and will jump between chainrings to automatically find you the next higher or lower gear which is very clever.
Thank you again HH. Choices choices... well at the moment I have a 25-year-old Specialized Epic - their first generation carbon frame - with Campagnolo Record of that era throughout, and traditional gearing. It still rides beautifully on flattish terrain through it always had a bit of a shudder at a bit above 40mph, which was scary the first time but is rarely relevant these days.
After about ten years off, I find myself a middle aged lazy bästard with two of the three roads out of the house being the Cols des Aravis and Saisies. So I definitely need compact gearing. As i'm neither in a hurry nor so slim any more, paying over the odds for marginal weight gain is not a priority, but I do want a nice eager response on the climbs and good handling going down. I might see what I can do with the Epic re fitting a new groupset, wheels and cabling but that might be good money after bad, and it's a pleasing period piece as it is that I can use on an indoor trainer.
Two things are certain: that the mountains are wasted on the locals; and that Brian has just fallen into a bottomless wormhole of consumer monkey heaven.
Thank you again HH. Choices choices... well at the moment I have a 25-year-old Specialized Epic - their first generation carbon frame - with Campagnolo Record of that era throughout, and traditional gearing. It still rides beautifully on flattish terrain through it always had a bit of a shudder at a bit above 40mph, which was scary the first time but is rarely relevant these days.
After about ten years off, I find myself a middle aged lazy bästard with two of the three roads out of the house being the Cols des Aravis and Saisies. So I definitely need compact gearing. As i'm neither in a hurry nor so slim any more, paying over the odds for marginal weight gain is not a priority, but I do want a nice eager response on the climbs and good handling going down. I might see what I can do with the Epic re fitting a new groupset, wheels and cabling but that might be good money after bad, and it's a pleasing period piece as it is that I can use on an indoor trainer.
Two things are certain: that the mountains are wasted on the locals; and that Brian has just fallen into a bottomless wormhole of consumer monkey heaven.
"...and that Brian has just fallen into a bottomless wormhole of consumer monkey heaven."
Yep, slightly scared!
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Thank you again HH. Choices choices... well at the moment I have a 25-year-old Specialized Epic - their first generation carbon frame - with Campagnolo Record of that era throughout, and traditional gearing. It still rides beautifully on flattish terrain through it always had a bit of a shudder at a bit above 40mph, which was scary the first time but is rarely relevant these days.
After about ten years off, I find myself a middle aged lazy bästard with two of the three roads out of the house being the Cols des Aravis and Saisies. So I definitely need compact gearing. As i'm neither in a hurry nor so slim any more, paying over the odds for marginal weight gain is not a priority, but I do want a nice eager response on the climbs and good handling going down. I might see what I can do with the Epic re fitting a new groupset, wheels and cabling but that might be good money after bad, and it's a pleasing period piece as it is that I can use on an indoor trainer.
Two things are certain: that the mountains are wasted on the locals; and that Brian has just fallen into a bottomless wormhole of consumer monkey heaven.
'I might see what I can do with the Epic re fitting a new groupset, wheels and cabling but that might be good money after bad, and it's a pleasing period piece as it is that I can use on an indoor trainer.'
I did that exercise for the Principia. My options were limited by the space between the rear dropouts. My lowest gear was 39/23 and I could have fitted a new cassette including a 25 tooth cog for 1 extra gear only. But, if you consider even semi-compact gearing with a 36 tooth inner chainring and a standard 11-28 cassette, that has 6 lower gears than my old Principia. I suspect your scenario is similar. Full compact will give you yet more choices. Plus, if you have those low gears you don't have to use them. I sometimes avoid the lowest gears riding at home but if I'm feeling whacked and want to spin up the last of the steep hills then I will. I also found that specifying a complete new groupset for an old bike is expensive because we don't get the bulk buying discounts of large manufacturer's. Might be worthwhile chatting to a bike mechanic to see if they have some workaround.
It's your call but new gearing, slightly wider tyres and a geometry of your choice will help you enjoy those lovely surrounds.
On a slightly different note, a friend, for reasons known only to him decided he would buy and restore an old Raleigh Arena because he always wanted one as a child. He's done the restoration and rides it but as far as I can see whenever he approaches anything resembling a hill he turns around and goes the other way!
Will definitely add my vote to the Marathon tyres...they are well worth the money. Before lockdown, i was commuting 50-60 miles a week on my bike and probably got one puncture every 6 months, and i cycle on some really crappy roads past a few rubbish dumps in industrial estates etc. loads of glass. The first puncture i got with one was literally a 2 inch nail that somehow went in from the side.
My gf nicknames them nappies, and they are a bit weird wearing them under shorts or trousers, but they do help. dont think it was that exact brand buy there are loads on Amazon.
All of the nerdy stuff is optional really. I can see the benefit of specialist clothing and optimising your running gear if you're doing 50 miles a day, otherwise just wear whatever's comfortable and try to keep up with maintenance and you're good. As simple or as complicated as you want it to be.
Haven't posted in a looooong time so hello everyone. I've seen that Cycle Surgery are closing for good and there are some (not many) offers on their website.
Planet X is a good port of call for cheap commuting gear, their baselayers, helmets, lights etc have served me well over the years.
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
