| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night 10:08 - Feb 6 with 6595 views | ShotKneesHoop |
Missed two blatant penalties and then allowed the Sheffield United goal to stand after a blatant offside. Booked Lee Bowyer for complaining as a result.
Minimal effect on Bournemouth! [Post edited 6 Feb 2022 10:12]
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| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:04 - Feb 8 with 1386 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 10:26 - Feb 8 by francisbowles |
Who assesses the assessor?
Why aren't the assessments made public? Anonymity could be protected if it's a data protection issue.
Seems to be a lack of transparency. |
Good point. I think publishing every report might be counter productive and mostly the response would be "The assessor said the referee got it wrong, whoopee, doesn't help us now does it?"
I have seen a report (or extract from one) when an EFL referee gave a zoom presentation for the RA. |  | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:06 - Feb 8 with 1368 views | Northernr |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:04 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
Good point. I think publishing every report might be counter productive and mostly the response would be "The assessor said the referee got it wrong, whoopee, doesn't help us now does it?"
I have seen a report (or extract from one) when an EFL referee gave a zoom presentation for the RA. |
I actually found Mark Halsey on Nedum Onuoha's podcast profoundly depressing when he outlined what he was told by assessors and what assessors look for vs what players, fans, managers and a lot of referees would say is good refereeing. |  | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:10 - Feb 8 with 1344 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 10:59 - Feb 8 by Northernr |
Well I agree that offsides are the linesman's fault. So we can certainly get that out of the way.
The one small caveat is that two of the ones we've had badly wrong in out games this season, the Sunderland one against us and the Blackpool one in our favour, involved the linesman initially keeping the flag down, but standing his ground, and then only raising it after a conversation with the referee. About what we cannot know, but the referee had an input of some sort into both those decisions.
Not the case in the Birmingham game though, where I disagree with your point two. Has he challenged an opponent for the ball - for me, yes. The goalkeeper is forced to come out of his area and deal with a ball in that way because Sharp has run through on him and is competing for it. If Sharp wasn't there, offside, the keeper would be able to let the ball run into the box and pick it up. That's offside. It just is. They're tying themselves in all kinds of silly knots pretending it's not. |
1) Thanks
2) The Sunderland one is still a mystery to me. KS DID signal for the goal, but as you say maybe the AR did then ask him something before putting his flag up - either way that's still down to the AR - dreadful decision
3) Offside - Yes very well put. 'Football' wants that to be offside, but as per LOTG and as Terry says it isn't. Its similar to when an offside attacker is standing behind a defender - defender heads it and we carry on. Even the professional players appeal for offside from the not unreasonable position of "What am I supposed to do - leave it?" | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:13 - Feb 8 with 1328 views | francisbowles |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:04 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
Good point. I think publishing every report might be counter productive and mostly the response would be "The assessor said the referee got it wrong, whoopee, doesn't help us now does it?"
I have seen a report (or extract from one) when an EFL referee gave a zoom presentation for the RA. |
Yes I get that but I was thinking it might be from a constructive feedback pov. That is, this is how you can improve your performance with better positioning, better communication, better signalling, better use of advantage, slower with whistle, better time management etc. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:17 - Feb 8 with 1312 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:01 - Feb 8 by Northernr |
Totally agree with this. It['s not exactly an attractive job with a whole loud of budding young stars coming through the ranks is it? Needs better management, better pay, and better conditions, to be a more attractive career option, which will then lift standards. |
I would put better management at the the top of the list.
Level 4s - They do Semi professional games & are treated by the FA like FT employees, when they have FT jobs elsewhere!
I know some excellent level 5s who just can't progress because of the risk to their careers as policemen, in the forces, emergency services or whatever.
Level 4s get not much more money than me for a lot more travel, time spent training (fitness test every year - level 4 and above) and of course more difficult games - albeit at a much higher level.
Another (big) debate to be had is the level of referees the FA have decided they want on women's games as well. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:19 - Feb 8 with 1306 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:06 - Feb 8 by Northernr |
I actually found Mark Halsey on Nedum Onuoha's podcast profoundly depressing when he outlined what he was told by assessors and what assessors look for vs what players, fans, managers and a lot of referees would say is good refereeing. |
Good debate this!
Yes I'm not surprised and that of course applies all the way down to referees looking for promotion at all levels. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:20 - Feb 8 with 1303 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:13 - Feb 8 by francisbowles |
Yes I get that but I was thinking it might be from a constructive feedback pov. That is, this is how you can improve your performance with better positioning, better communication, better signalling, better use of advantage, slower with whistle, better time management etc. |
They do get all that advice, obviously - and of course that starts as soon as you start on the promotion ladder. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:26 - Feb 8 with 1287 views | ted_hendrix |
Well we're living in the 21st Century with incredible technology and yet It seems to me that we still cant get vital and costly decisions right.
Honestly not knocking the officials because I havent got a solution myself, but every weekend It's the same old discussion about wrong or incorrect decisions that might/could cost a club a fortune.
That's It, all I've got. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:36 - Feb 8 with 1268 views | stowmarketrange |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 10:58 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
The other problem I've touched on and we've discussed over on RefChat is the 'issue' of employment law.
Two issues
1) As we know a mandatory retirement age does not exist, so you can't just say to Mike Dean, "Mate, you're too old - off you go"
2) As we all know from our own workplaces, if someone is not quite up to it, or making mistakes, you can't just sack them.
The top level referees are full time employees with the same rights that brings to everyone else.
As Clive and me have touched on - yes you could demote referees for poor marks, but with VAR in place, you do that too much and your're going to run out of referees at the top and it just then filters down. Not enough referees full stop and tbh, when you see some (not all, or even most) but some comments on here and out on the fop you can see why. |
I have given up being a linesman for my daughter’s adult games,and I’m glad I did because sometimes the abuse is appalling.On sunday our linesman was abused because he gave a goal kick instead of a corner in the last minute and the abusers were losing 3-1.He was told “I’ll come over there and punch your f@cking lights out you four eyed c@nt.”
He wasn’t sure who said it so he couldn’t really complain to the ref about it.Their Lino was one of their subs who just virtually stood in one place and guessed most of the decisions.
Even my granddaughter’s U15 games are getting more aggressive,especially with the managers and coaches,but it’s still just about enjoyable.I does annoy me though when the managers get in my way as I’m trying to run up and down the line.How close do they have to be to their players? [Post edited 8 Feb 2022 11:38]
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| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:56 - Feb 8 with 1240 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:17 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
I would put better management at the the top of the list.
Level 4s - They do Semi professional games & are treated by the FA like FT employees, when they have FT jobs elsewhere!
I know some excellent level 5s who just can't progress because of the risk to their careers as policemen, in the forces, emergency services or whatever.
Level 4s get not much more money than me for a lot more travel, time spent training (fitness test every year - level 4 and above) and of course more difficult games - albeit at a much higher level.
Another (big) debate to be had is the level of referees the FA have decided they want on women's games as well. |
I am a level two ECB cricket umpire, umpiring premier league club games in one county, and if you think football is complicated, try cricket!
There are 42 main laws that we have to apply to 100 over matches. Within each law there are dozens and dozens of sub sections of laws that we have to know and apply instantly.
The most important law is the unwritten Law 43 “common sense”, which we are encouraged to use; is the same encouragement given by the FA to referees in their training? If so, it seems Stroud wasn’t listening! | |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 12:22 - Feb 8 with 1191 views | Northernr |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:36 - Feb 8 by stowmarketrange |
I have given up being a linesman for my daughter’s adult games,and I’m glad I did because sometimes the abuse is appalling.On sunday our linesman was abused because he gave a goal kick instead of a corner in the last minute and the abusers were losing 3-1.He was told “I’ll come over there and punch your f@cking lights out you four eyed c@nt.”
He wasn’t sure who said it so he couldn’t really complain to the ref about it.Their Lino was one of their subs who just virtually stood in one place and guessed most of the decisions.
Even my granddaughter’s U15 games are getting more aggressive,especially with the managers and coaches,but it’s still just about enjoyable.I does annoy me though when the managers get in my way as I’m trying to run up and down the line.How close do they have to be to their players? [Post edited 8 Feb 2022 11:38]
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I played 5s last night with my old uni mates (37 and above) and the team we played were all teenagers. Nasty, horrible farce. 2 or 3 fights, one of ours told he was getting “cut” in the car park afterwards, a fcking 13 year old said he “knew ppl that would kill us”. Monday night 5 a side. I despair. Made a point of going over to thank the ref for his time at the end because it must have been a miserable 40 mins for him. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 12:23 - Feb 8 with 1191 views | enfieldargh |
things that irritate me about football/referees.
Refs not cracking down on time wasting. Its almost an impossible job refs have if a players goes down holding his head(in AFC's case 3 players) to slow down the game. More so though sodding about taking goalkicks, throw ins. Its amazing how goalies & footballers suddenly start doing Long John Silver impressions when getting/receiving a ball to take said deadball kick/throw. Players being injured and going down in what looks like agony then getting up as if nothing has happened. Please stricter dishing out of yellow cards is the only way to curb this. Wasting time in the 15th minute is not different to doing it in the 85th minute
As long as players managers continue to flaunt the integrity of the game then we are stuck with this.
Player feels a slight nudge, goes down free kick every time. Same thing in the penalty box no foul given. Attackers diving in the oppo pen box has been around for ages but some refs seem to go out of their way not to give a pen when theyve been awarding free kicks for any contact elsewhere on the field. Does my head in.
Sometimes these things go for us other times against.
Just want consistency from the Refs who I will say have split seconds to make a decision, 22 players and coaching staff trying to gain an advantage and thousands of spectators baying for their blood.
We need refs and hauling Refs like Stroud over the coals may make refs question whether they want to do the job in the first place. |  |
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| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 12:53 - Feb 8 with 1158 views | stowmarketrange |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 12:22 - Feb 8 by Northernr |
I played 5s last night with my old uni mates (37 and above) and the team we played were all teenagers. Nasty, horrible farce. 2 or 3 fights, one of ours told he was getting “cut” in the car park afterwards, a fcking 13 year old said he “knew ppl that would kill us”. Monday night 5 a side. I despair. Made a point of going over to thank the ref for his time at the end because it must have been a miserable 40 mins for him. |
That really is terrible.I suppose when one youngster wants to stab another one because he looked at him the wrong way,I can imagine what they’d do over something important like 5a side football.
Absolute madness and I’m glad I’m nearer the coffin lid rather than the delivery room.
There are still lots of good people about but they seem to be in a ever decreasing minority,and the world is definitely getting angrier. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 14:22 - Feb 8 with 1112 views | terryb |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:01 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
Thanks Terry, pretty much as I saw it.
I am not alone - phew!  |
Well, not quite Paul! I said that I didn't think many AR's would have flagged , but as Sharpe made a movement towards the ball & goalkeeper I would have given offside.
I certainly think there is a difference in interpretation between match officials & players on this type of situation & I've not a clue as to what the lawmakers intended. Probably different to either view!
Although I twice passed the referees exam, I still view everything from the playing point of view & I'm often exasperated by the application of the letter of the law rather than the spirit.
This was always increased at referee association meetings by the comments of very serious officials, especially those that had acted at FL Division One games (pre Premier) & the Premier League! | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 15:28 - Feb 8 with 1064 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:33 - Feb 8 by ShotKneesHoop |
Pinner Paul,
Can we agree on a score draw with this?
I will withdraw my complaint on the penalty shout, based on your “meaningful” contact explanation.
You have also moved on the handball, as the defenders hand was above his head, and he made contact with the ball, so it seems you agree it was a penalty.
Thats one all!
There is a difference of opinion on whether Billy Sharpe was affecting play. What would have been the decision if the goalkeeper had stopped his involvement and let Sharpe kick into an unprotected goal? Do you really think the Lino would have signalled offside after that? Do you really think Stroud is smart enough or unbiased enough to have blown up.
So, I suppose it’s still one all - unless you now agree with my logic ! [Post edited 8 Feb 2022 16:21]
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Thanks for the discussion - I'll take the point!
Firstly and this IS important, AR puts his flag up, Keith Stroud stops play, AR does nothing, so does the ref - doesn't matter who he is.
As I said above what you say IS correct, GK does nothing, or in reality, stays in his PA, as soon as Sharpe touches the ball, up goes the flag.
I agree that WOULD look ridiculous, which is why I agreed with Clive's thoughts on it AND TerryB's!
1-1 - handshakes all round, off we go!  | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 15:31 - Feb 8 with 1049 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 14:22 - Feb 8 by terryb |
Well, not quite Paul! I said that I didn't think many AR's would have flagged , but as Sharpe made a movement towards the ball & goalkeeper I would have given offside.
I certainly think there is a difference in interpretation between match officials & players on this type of situation & I've not a clue as to what the lawmakers intended. Probably different to either view!
Although I twice passed the referees exam, I still view everything from the playing point of view & I'm often exasperated by the application of the letter of the law rather than the spirit.
This was always increased at referee association meetings by the comments of very serious officials, especially those that had acted at FL Division One games (pre Premier) & the Premier League! |
When you say 'not many ARs would have flagged' - I'm, rightly or wrongly, taking that as NO Ars at this level will flag, because, as you say, they have no choice but to apply the law.
I agree about the top level referees to a certain extent - but the meetings I have been to the irritation from grassroots referees has come about because of them ignoring certain things - dissent, 6 seconds, timewasting etc. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 15:33 - Feb 8 with 1044 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 11:06 - Feb 8 by Northernr |
I actually found Mark Halsey on Nedum Onuoha's podcast profoundly depressing when he outlined what he was told by assessors and what assessors look for vs what players, fans, managers and a lot of referees would say is good refereeing. |
Spot on and this quote from RefChat on club marks v observer marks sums it up nicely I think
"I think it's typically results vs method.
The club care about if you got an small set of individual decisions right (albiet with a healthy does of tinted glasses on what actually constitutes "right"). A good observer will basically ignore the direct question of right/wrong on decisions and instead try to see if you have the ability to consistently put yourself in the right position and apply a good understanding of law in the moment. On the assumption that doing those things well is more reproducible and will result in good decisions on a macro level regardless of each micro-decision is correct.
Obviously judging the effectiveness of these two types of feedback is harder to follow given a) biased managers/players and b) bad observers throwing off the data. But in theory, someone getting good club marks and bad observer marks might just be getting lucky or guessing well in a small sample set, which isn't a sustainable approach long-term." | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:12 - Feb 8 with 1006 views | nix |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 15:33 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
Spot on and this quote from RefChat on club marks v observer marks sums it up nicely I think
"I think it's typically results vs method.
The club care about if you got an small set of individual decisions right (albiet with a healthy does of tinted glasses on what actually constitutes "right"). A good observer will basically ignore the direct question of right/wrong on decisions and instead try to see if you have the ability to consistently put yourself in the right position and apply a good understanding of law in the moment. On the assumption that doing those things well is more reproducible and will result in good decisions on a macro level regardless of each micro-decision is correct.
Obviously judging the effectiveness of these two types of feedback is harder to follow given a) biased managers/players and b) bad observers throwing off the data. But in theory, someone getting good club marks and bad observer marks might just be getting lucky or guessing well in a small sample set, which isn't a sustainable approach long-term." |
Can you give an example of where the 'right' decision would result from a wrong application of the LOTG and a 'wrong' decision could nevertheless apply a good understanding of the laws of the game as I don't really understand how that works? |  | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:24 - Feb 8 with 994 views | terryb |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 15:31 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
When you say 'not many ARs would have flagged' - I'm, rightly or wrongly, taking that as NO Ars at this level will flag, because, as you say, they have no choice but to apply the law.
I agree about the top level referees to a certain extent - but the meetings I have been to the irritation from grassroots referees has come about because of them ignoring certain things - dissent, 6 seconds, timewasting etc. |
I'm not saying that they shouldn't flag as that is the law. By moving towards the ball they are interfeering & so IMO they are offside.
The not many AR's would have flagged , is due to the interpretation of the law by their boss - Riley. He is the man who sets the tone for how our senior match officials act. And probably for what the accessors are looking for.
I do admit to having a bee in my bonnet about him! A useless referee & an even worse administrator. But still, he has been forced to come into line with the rest of the world about when to raise the flag for offside. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:31 - Feb 8 with 974 views | nix |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:24 - Feb 8 by terryb |
I'm not saying that they shouldn't flag as that is the law. By moving towards the ball they are interfeering & so IMO they are offside.
The not many AR's would have flagged , is due to the interpretation of the law by their boss - Riley. He is the man who sets the tone for how our senior match officials act. And probably for what the accessors are looking for.
I do admit to having a bee in my bonnet about him! A useless referee & an even worse administrator. But still, he has been forced to come into line with the rest of the world about when to raise the flag for offside. |
That's how I see it too. By causing a player, whether it's the goalkeeper or a defender, to change their position or the action they would take, surely they're interfering with play? | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:40 - Feb 8 with 954 views | stowmarketrange |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:31 - Feb 8 by nix |
That's how I see it too. By causing a player, whether it's the goalkeeper or a defender, to change their position or the action they would take, surely they're interfering with play? |
You’re right mate.How can you teach players to not do anything to defend their goal in the hope that a lineman’s flag will save them by possibly flagging for a player who isn’t active in the 1st phase but is distracting one of your team by pretending to make a move towards the ball,but then goes on to score? | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 18:24 - Feb 8 with 872 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:12 - Feb 8 by nix |
Can you give an example of where the 'right' decision would result from a wrong application of the LOTG and a 'wrong' decision could nevertheless apply a good understanding of the laws of the game as I don't really understand how that works? |
Well this 'offside' is a classic example of where the observer will say, as per LOTG, AR got it right and Birmingham will mark down the referee and say he got it wrong.
Generally if referee says he didn't give a pen because he genuinely thought it wasn't, observer OK with that, if he says he didn't see it, observer would want to know why and criticise his positioning.
That is what the RefChat post alludes to.
Penalties are often subjective decisions - clubs who have those go 'against' them will always mark down the referee, observers will want to know why referee didn't give a pen.
The handball pen here (I thought it was btw) - observer will want to know did KS think it accidental, if so did he consider arm in natural position or was he unsighted, if so why?
As I said above, on balance I think that one will be marked down as a wrong KMI (key match incident) | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 18:28 - Feb 8 with 862 views | PinnerPaul |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 16:24 - Feb 8 by terryb |
I'm not saying that they shouldn't flag as that is the law. By moving towards the ball they are interfeering & so IMO they are offside.
The not many AR's would have flagged , is due to the interpretation of the law by their boss - Riley. He is the man who sets the tone for how our senior match officials act. And probably for what the accessors are looking for.
I do admit to having a bee in my bonnet about him! A useless referee & an even worse administrator. But still, he has been forced to come into line with the rest of the world about when to raise the flag for offside. |
Moving towards the ball isn't a criteria for offside, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Here is a common problem - people know the word 'interfering' is in the LOTG and so use it as per common day language - perfectly understandable - but 'interfering' is clearly defined and merely moving towards the ball isn't in there. | | | |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 18:36 - Feb 8 with 837 views | terryb |
| Keith Stroud cocking it up again at the Brum vs Blades game on Friday night on 18:28 - Feb 8 by PinnerPaul |
Moving towards the ball isn't a criteria for offside, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Here is a common problem - people know the word 'interfering' is in the LOTG and so use it as per common day language - perfectly understandable - but 'interfering' is clearly defined and merely moving towards the ball isn't in there. |
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
challenging an opponent for the ball
We will certainly have to agree to disagree Paul.
The above is copied from the laws of the game. IMO Sharp running towards the goalkeeper is challenging an opponent for the ball.
I accept that you don't think so, but it is as valid an interpretation as that he wasn't challenging. | | | |
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