Forum | Measles and vaccination by saint901

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Measles and vaccination 09:24 - Jul 21 with 1529 views

Last year Canada suffered a measles outbreak sufficient to place it into the top ten countries for such outbreaks.

The source of the outbreak was traced to a single individual who attended a Mennonite event. The Mennonite community is one which embraces a philosophy in which some aspects of modern life and science are given up in favour of a more simple regimen.

If we accept that members of such a community are intelligent and aware that a reduced use of vaccines exposes them and their children to otherwise preventable diseases (some of which are very dangerous), then are members of the wider community equally able to refuse to be in shared spaces with the unvaccinated ?

The measles vaccines have been around since the early 1960's. Before the vaccine became a mass exercise, it's estimated that some 2 million people - mainly children - dies each year from measles. There ahs been a slight uptick in recorded cases in recent year as vaccine hesitancy spreads.

Herd immunity from measles requires a vaccine take up of around 95% of the population. Canada and the UK (and the US) fall short of that.

Given the proven safety record of measles (I'm not saying that in some very rare cases the vaccine has not had side effects and I'm not getting into the nonsense around the MMR version) is there a case for legislating here to ensure the majority of the population is protected?

Measles and vaccination on 12:10 - Jul 21 with 1288 views

arfurdent

or should we let Darwin do his thing and weed out those with genetic weaknesses

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

Measles and vaccination on 13:28 - Jul 21 with 1250 views

Stevebish

I have people around me who are medical professionals and find the whole idea of not having vaccinations crazy, the whole MMR debacle is a prime example the Dr who published the findings has since been completely debunked and had his licence to practice removed but people still believe his article. Even is it was correct there was a 1 in 14million chance of getting Autism according to him but a much bigger chance of your child dyeing if you didn't have it, vaccines are there to protect us but you cannot in a free society legislate against stupidity

Measles and vaccination on 14:23 - Jul 21 with 1195 views

saint901

There are those who think variously that:

-the medical professionals have been seduced by false data from pharma outfits
- that some have a vested interest in said pharma outfits and that this is why they are prepared to believe a lie
- that the pharma outfits have a huge financial incentive to lie
- that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

It is a fact that vaccines can be toxic to humans but then so can many foods or chemicals in the air/soil/water. Most toxic of all of course is other humans.

The point here is that if we accept as a general concept that a vaccine over 60 years in the field with no significant side effects outside of very rare instances, is a "good thing" and protects everybody - vaccinated or not - against (in this case) measles is 95% of the population take it, should individuals either be forced to take it or be excluded from some events or activity in society, if they choose not to be dictated to?

Humans acting in a society generally make progress and achieve more than humans choosing or being forced to be on their own. Humans are social animals and being in groups is "natural" for us. But if somebody chooses to break the rules of the group, what sanction is suitable?

Measles and vaccination on 15:43 - Jul 21 with 1165 views

mushinexile

Measles and vaccination on 14:23 - Jul 21 by saint901

Listening to jellybaby's conspiracy theories?

Poll:

Should the BBC show Glastonbury or Wimbledon?

Measles and vaccination on 16:08 - Jul 21 with 1144 views

SouthSeaSaint

I am sad to say I know someone who is a card carrying conspiracy theorist (no not Jellybaby) but is extremely well covered in tattoos and by his own admission spends quite a bit of his cash on class A drugs.
In addition girlfriend seems to have a very close relationship with botox.
Both of them reckon qualified medical practitioners are out to get them.
However this is not a modern trait and has been this way for hundreds of years despite the massive steps in medical science.

Measles and vaccination on 16:36 - Jul 21 with 1123 views

arfurdent

Measles and vaccination on 16:08 - Jul 21 by SouthSeaSaint

being paranoid does not mean you are not screwed

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

Measles and vaccination on 17:39 - Jul 21 with 1086 views

saint901

Measles and vaccination on 15:43 - Jul 21 by mushinexile
Listening to jellybaby's conspiracy theories?

No, Mr Jelly and I have very different views.

It is however the case that either a very active and vocal minority have concerns over the integrity of the medical profession and especially its connections with pharma or the silent majority has been hoodwinked.

I'm not saying which of those positions is more likely or reasonable, just that they exist.

Measles and vaccination on 18:08 - Jul 21 with 1070 views

mushinexile

I am a member of the vocal majority that believes vaccines save many lives. I was amongst the first to be jabbed for Covid and took every booster as early as I could. I didn't get the disease, didn't go blind and suffered no ill effects. Nor was I harmed by diphtheria or polio vaccination in my youth. I was, however harmed like many others by measles which caused me myopia and astigmatism, which doesn't happen often to today's children who benefit from a vaccine

Poll:

Should the BBC show Glastonbury or Wimbledon?

Measles and vaccination on 19:28 - Jul 21 with 1035 views

Jellybaby

Measles and vaccination on 15:43 - Jul 21 by mushinexile
Listening to jellybaby's conspiracy theories?

Stunning first paragraph from 901!

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

Measles and vaccination on 19:43 - Jul 21 with 1021 views

Jellybaby

Measles and vaccination on 16:08 - Jul 21 by SouthSeaSaint

I'm not covered in tattoos, dont do drugs, have a wife with no botox and II don't think medical professionals are out to get us, I think they mostly act in good faith but follow instructions and protocols set up to kill us and keep us sick.

Sorry Southsea, I know I don't fit the caricature you would like, but I see no other alternative than we are run by depopulating eugenicists that hate us and want us dead.

Vaccines are like some sort of sorcery, do doctors cover this subject in their training beyond a cursory glance? Do they cover nutrition? Are they drug pushers for big pharma? Why is cancer and heart disease off the scale? Why do our kids have so much autism and adhd etc. Why have our sportsmen started collapsing and having heart issues since the jab roll out?

Give me some good answers and I will happily rejoin the brainwashed herd. Waiting in anticipation.

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

Measles and vaccination on 19:58 - Jul 21 with 995 views

franniesTache

Measles and vaccination on 19:43 - Jul 21 by Jellybaby

Just to tackle a few points from that.

I used to go out with someone at medical school, and yes vaccines are covered in depth. To be a dr you need to do chemistry and with chemistry they also cover the chemical compounds of the drugs they prescribe. They have to do this so they don’t kill patients and have to continue studying through their entire career.

Yes they study nutrition because it’s a very important part of medicine, though some specialise in it even further.

We are seeing a rise in cancer because we’re discovering it earlier and better, and both cancer and heart disease is growing as causes of death because people are living longer so those that would’ve died of other things in the past now live long enough to develop these conditions (often ones were genetically predisposed too, for example with cancer the BRCA gene).

Your understanding of eugenics also seems to be a bit off, historically eugenics was used to kill people with disabilities and gay people, what drs are doing is keeping people alive longer (see the stats on aging populations for proof)

As for vaccines I think it’s amazing that we’re in a period of such incredible scientific discovery that we’re finding cures and vaccine for things we thought in the past would be incurable

Measles and vaccination on 22:10 - Jul 21 with 939 views

arfurdent

Measles and vaccination on 19:58 - Jul 21 by franniesTache

agree with most of that

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

Measles and vaccination on 22:20 - Jul 21 with 939 views

mushinexile

I thought a suitable sanction would be listening to jelly baby's conspiracy theories. I have been vaccinated with my consent so I shouldn't have to. Please make it stop. Humanity deserves better

Poll:

Should the BBC show Glastonbury or Wimbledon?

Measles and vaccination on 00:17 - Jul 22 with 898 views

Jellybaby

Measles and vaccination on 19:58 - Jul 21 by franniesTache

Thanks for your reply Frannie, but you need to study up a bit on eugenics. See this surprisingly good article from The Guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2019/may/01/eugenics-

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

Measles and vaccination on 10:15 - Jul 22 with 754 views

saint901

Good morning Mr Jelly.

You have managed to again divert the course of the thread but you have intrigued me.

Who are the

"depopulating eugenicists that hate us and want us dead."

How have they been identified?
How have their motives been determined?
Why do they want us dead?

Thank you in anticipation

Measles and vaccination on 14:49 - Jul 22 with 699 views

SouthSeaSaint

Measles and vaccination on 19:43 - Jul 21 by Jellybaby

Jelly,
Saint 901 has asked you a question about your statement on eugenics.
I am fortunate to have quite a few medical practitioners within my family group who have wide ranging experience in providing medical care and have had to undergo a considerable amount of training in general and later more specific parts of the profession.
I am sure they would agree that no one can be absolutely certain that drugs, procedures, vaccines or advice are suitable for everyone. After all we are complicated entities.
With regard to autism and adhd there are a variety of views on this. One of these relates to more focus being placed on diagnosis.
Same with anxiety. Up until fairly recently anyone who went to see a Doctor with anxiety or depression were told to 'pull yourself together'.
Fortunately the medical profession now has much more understanding of the symptoms of the condition and appropriate assistance that can be provided.
More cancer diagnoses is surely due primarily to the vast improvement in medical techniques.
Not so long ago, I had a relative who had a stomach ache and the only real way to establish what was wrong was to have an 'exploratory' operation'. Nowadays MRI scans, more precise blood tests etc etc would have been the order of the day and her condition may have been treatable.
Re Heart Disease. When the NHS was set up in 1948, the common consent was that the population was in general good health as they had to put up with a restricted diet during the war years and the consumption of alcohol and cigarettes was also restricted.
When the world economy picked up and our diets moved onto to a high fat/sugar basis culminating in the vast number of overweight people, it is no wonder heart attacks are more prevalent. The only good thing here is that many people can survive the first or even a second heart attack with modern treatment which then makes them prone to death from a further attack.
There is some suggestion that Sportsmen (in particular) are experiencing heart related conditions due to the intensity of their training regimes which are infinitely more intense than the days when footballers were generally less fit.
And, of course, how many health related conditions are linked to the increasing consumption of soft and hard drugs?
Many conspiracy theorists point the finger at Big Pharma but seem to overlook the thousands of people who produce, transfer and sell such products of uncertain quality to an increasingly expanding market.

Measles and vaccination on 19:51 - Jul 22 with 636 views

Jellybaby

Measles and vaccination on 14:49 - Jul 22 by SouthSeaSaint

I enjoyed reading your considered reply Southsea.

Saint 901 is on a loop, he asks the same questions, I give the same answers. Eugenics amongst the Elites is and has always been a thing. Denying it does not make it go away.

I too have close friends and family in this profession, they are all good people doing their best, during covid they all had different views from as sceptical as me, to as compliant as the next person. I don't doubt the integrity of any of them. But to go against the grain often leads to doctors being de-bunked and de-registered as with Andrew Wakefield way back.

I see allopathic medicine with it's cut, burn and poison mentality as insane, I see the NHS being used to hand out experimental vaccines, undertake gender reassignment on teenagers, possibly soon to carry out abortions on full term pregnancies and administer euthanasia to the old, weak, imperfect or depressed. They are not the originators of these things, but they become complicit.

It is hard to argue that the MRNA vaccine has not adversely affected young sportsmen, but that is your choice.

The alternative market to big pharma may be awash with dubious stuff for sure, but often it traces back to the same people cornering all the market. Ultimately we have to make our best choices and do our own due diligence.

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

Measles and vaccination on 21:21 - Jul 22 with 615 views

franniesTache

Measles and vaccination on 00:17 - Jul 22 by Jellybaby
Thanks for your reply Frannie, but you need to study up a bit on eugenics. See this surprisingly good article from The Guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2019/may/01/eugenics-

I’m not entirely sure what your point is here as the article you shared seems to be agreeing with what I said eugenics was, albeit just one targeting disabled people so a subset of the wider thing

Measles and vaccination on 23:16 - Jul 22 with 584 views

Jellybaby

Measles and vaccination on 21:21 - Jul 22 by franniesTache
I’m not entirely sure what your point is here as the article you shared seems to be agreeing with what I said eugenics was, albeit just one targeting disabled people so a subset of the wider thing

You said eugenics was the killing of disabled and gay people??

The article shows that it is something way beyond that:;

Thus George Bernard Shaw could write: “The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man”

Bertrand Russell, dreamed up a wheeze that would have made even Nazi Germany’s eugenicists blush. He suggested the state issue colour-coded “procreation tickets”. Those who dared breed with holders of a different-coloured ticket would face a heavy fine. That way the high-calibre gene pool of the elite would not be muddied by any proletarian or worse, foreign, muck.

The trouble began with Charles Darwin. His breakthrough work, The Origin of Species, did not restrict its impact to the academy and laboratories. Instead it transformed the very way mankind understood itself in the 19th century, its message fast spilling over into the realm of political ideas. Suddenly the religious notion that all life was equally sacred was under attack. Human beings were like any other species – some were more evolved than others. The human race could be divided into different categories and classes. When Karl Marx took on the task of charting human development and defining the class structure, he acknowledged his debt – dedicating an early edition of Das Kapital to none other than Charles Darwin.

Many progressives were drawn to the hope that science could build up the strong parts of the nation, and slowly eliminate the weak. Dozens of them signed up for the Eugenics Society, which in the 1930s rivalled the Fabians as the fashionable salon of London socialism. Labour MP Ellen Wilkinson even wanted the society to form its own committee of Labour sympathisers. HG Wells could not contain his enthusiasm, hailing eugenics as the first step toward the removal “of detrimental types and characteristics” and the “fostering of desirable types” in their place.

One other doctrine was crucial – profound elitism. It strikes the 1990s ear oddly, but these leading lights of British socialism had no patience for equality. The communist and one-time editor of the Daily Worker, JBS Haldane, considered equality a “curious dogma … we are not born equal, far from it”. Many on the left were members of the upper middle-class or lower aristocracy, convinced their higher intellectual capacities had to be preserved from proletarian infection.

In this context, there was only contempt for ordinary people, who were regarded as “sub-men” to be tended and looked after – via the welfare state – like a bovine herd. The Labour cabinet minister Douglas Jay felt no embarrassment in putting the attitude on record in his pamphlet, The Socialist Cause. Famously and loftily he declared, “In the case of nutrition and health, just as in the case of education, the gentleman in Whitehall really does know better what is good for people than the people know themselves”. Non-Britons came even lower on the Darwinian pecking order.

The target is anyone who is not part of the aristocracy.

[Post edited 23 Jul 6:33]

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

Measles and vaccination on 09:51 - Jul 23 with 478 views

franniesTache

Measles and vaccination on 23:16 - Jul 22 by Jellybaby

[Post edited 23 Jul 6:33]

You seem to be mistaking your views on the politics of a thing with the definition of the thing there mush, and applying your own natural bias to it whilst doing it

Measles and vaccination on 11:51 - Jul 23 with 440 views

arfurdent

surely it is quite simple:

- if you go out in a rainstorm without an umbrella / coat you will get damp

- if you do not want to be vaccinated then do not complain if you catch the disease

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

Measles and vaccination on 13:39 - Jul 23 with 390 views

mushinexile

Not quite Arfur.
If you go out in the rain without an umbrella, I don't get wet.
If you don't get vaccinated, I might get the disease.

Poll:

Should the BBC show Glastonbury or Wimbledon?

Measles and vaccination on 19:38 - Jul 23 with 332 views

Jellybaby

Measles and vaccination on 11:51 - Jul 23 by arfurdent
surely it is quite simple: - if you go out in a rainstorm without an umbrella / coat you will get damp - if you do not want to be vaccinated then do not complain if you catch the disease

What about those times, when you take your rain coat and umbrella because you think it's going to rain and it doesn't and you spend the rest of the day regretting your choice.......

I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.

Measles and vaccination on 21:33 - Jul 23 with 287 views

Buggalugs

Measles and vaccination on 19:38 - Jul 23 by Jellybaby
What about those times, when you take your rain coat and umbrella because you think it's going to rain and it doesn't and you spend the rest of the day regretting your choice.......

…or, what about when you hear the forecast on the BBC before you go out and it says a torrential downpour is imminent. Being so well informed, you put your raincoat on and umbrella up when you leave the house and sure enough, it starts to piss it down as soon as you step outside. Instead of being grateful you’re keeping dry, you prefer to smugly sneer at the few thickos who didn’t heed the warning and are getting wet, only to then get struck by lightning and die…

Poll:

How do YOU define a racist?

Measles and vaccination on 22:31 - Jul 23 with 273 views

arfurdent

Measles and vaccination on 21:33 - Jul 23 by Buggalugs

well if you will listen to the BBC

So the question is raised about whether:

- not being vaccinated is made socially unacceptable like wearing seatbelts

- it becomes a legal requirement to protect the state by having all all approved vaccinations, although one wonders how far that approach will be taken by the state

Personally I have all the jabs GP Surgery recommends

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

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