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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 09:34 - May 24 by easthertsr
It is an irrefutable fact that there was no Islamic terrorism in Europe before the first gulf war in the nineties. Successive military interventions by the West in the Middle East have fuelled the flames. What to do now is indeed the question, history tells us that a knee jerk reaction that clamps down on whole communities makes things worse. Complex situations require complex solutions, my simple answer is I have no idea what to do about it, I just hope that someone in a position of power can find an answer.
Terrorism has evolved over years in method and where they act. Its oversimplifying the situation massively to pinpoint 1 war as the reason for the attacks we see in Europe today.
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:50 - May 24 with 3067 views
That reminds me...I am always a bit mystified when I hear people say things like 'I don't agree with Iraq but I agree with Afghanistan'. It's imperialism à la carte.
On a related note I am also sceptical when I hear 'anti-imperialist' denunciations of Blair from right wingers who used to get a stiffy whenever they saw Thatcher riding around in a tank. We saw the same isolationist shell game from Trump - until Trump got into office - then it was business as usual.
[Post edited 24 May 2017 14:58]
Air hostess clique
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:59 - May 24 with 3030 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:15 - May 24 by 2Thomas2Bowles
I think if the Eu referendum was held today the leavers would win by a landslide
Leaves don't just want the borders controlled from those in the EU
Most people agreed with Cameron on how many so called refugees we let in.
I've always thought that Merkel opening the floodgates pushed many in to voting leave
[Post edited 24 May 2017 14:19]
Many leave voters were 2nd and 3rd generation British voters whose family were commonwealth immigrants. They did not like Eastern Europeans flooding into the local area, yet did not know the history of racism against commonwealth immigrants who came to the UK between the 1950s and 1980s. The terrorists also seem to be British born whose parents or grandparents were immigrants to the UK.
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:05 - May 24 with 3000 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:44 - May 24 by JamesB1979
Terrorism has evolved over years in method and where they act. Its oversimplifying the situation massively to pinpoint 1 war as the reason for the attacks we see in Europe today.
Spot on Jimmyboy. Attacks on western targets started decades before aforementioned conflict and, if I'm to take many ISIS members at their word, we've had it coming since the Crusades.
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:59 - May 24 by runningman75
Many leave voters were 2nd and 3rd generation British voters whose family were commonwealth immigrants. They did not like Eastern Europeans flooding into the local area, yet did not know the history of racism against commonwealth immigrants who came to the UK between the 1950s and 1980s. The terrorists also seem to be British born whose parents or grandparents were immigrants to the UK.
Oh I don't know, I think many were rather tired of being pawns on the Corporation Chess Board.
Now imagine for one moment the year is 1939, and nazi sympathisers are marching through the streets of London waving nazi flags and demanding death to Jew's and Christians. Would we have allowed it to happen?
Well fast forward almost 70 years, we have people who hate us and want us dead marching through OUR STREETS calling for our destruction, and the left call it diversity
That reminds me...I am always a bit mystified when I hear people say things like 'I don't agree with Iraq but I agree with Afghanistan'. It's imperialism à la carte.
On a related note I am also sceptical when I hear 'anti-imperialist' denunciations of Blair from right wingers who used to get a stiffy whenever they saw Thatcher riding around in a tank. We saw the same isolationist shell game from Trump - until Trump got into office - then it was business as usual.
[Post edited 24 May 2017 14:58]
I honestly don't think Afghanistan was motivated by Imperialism. I know plenty of other people will point to a pipeline that doesn't exist and won't be built in our lifetime, but I believe it was a reaction to an attack on the US, the clear threat of more, and revulsion at the nature of the Taliban regime. As a resource prize, it was worthless. Iraq, that's much more debatable.
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:25 - May 24 with 2943 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:31 - May 24 by MrSheen
Struggling to answer this succinctly. Obviously we made things worse in Iraq. I tend not to see these as wars of imperialism, and others clearly disagree. The decision to intervene or not depends on how the last one worked out, so: Somalia - intervened - disaster Rwanda - didn't intervene - disaster Yugoslavia - didn't intervene - disaster, then intervened - success Kosovo - intervened - success Afghanistan - intervened - initial success, then disaster Iraq - intervened - disaster Syria - didn't intervene - disaster, etc, etc
Plenty of people on here, and beyond, have their view filtered through their loathing of Western politics, and put the blame 100% on them for everything that happened, to the point of ignoring anything that contradicts that narrative. This unanimous condemnation grows with distance, but even the worst actions might be viewed differently on the ground. What do the Kurds think of Iraq2? What would Iraq have looked like if Saddam had died in his bed or been murdered by one of his sons? How would the 20th year of the Taliban government been marked in Afghanistan?
As it happens, I'm not in the lock-up-the-mosques camp. We are in a difficult position where we have a significant number of people in the country who identify with the Ummah rather than the country of their birth, and seem inclined to revenge indignities suffered by it at the hands of unbelievers on their fellow citizens, while being curiously indifferent about violence suffered by believers at the hands of other believers. But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties.
I'd like to know who you consider, on here has "their view filtered through their loathing of Western politics, and put the blame 100% on them for everything that happened, to the point of ignoring anything that contradicts that narrative."
The fact that you have to project such an extreme view and set of characteristics on to those who may question whether all our actions are well meant and their contribution to the current ills indicates, to me, your own struggles with anything that contradicts your narrative.
It's a dangerous world in which those who wish to ask questions of the official line are so dismissively categorised with such extremity. It happens in a lot of regimes that none of us would care to live in.
Loathing of Western politics...ignoring anything that contradicts their narrative....these are the sorts of 'qualities' one might accuse the terrorists of having. Do such extreme beliefs help you to validate the negating of views less dogmatically supportive of our more violent foreign policy aspects than yours by aligning them with attributes one might assign to the terrorists? I suppose it must enhance your sense of 'being right' and ignore any validity to what others may have to suggest.
If you want to believe that we invaded Iraq out of a sense of needing to do the right thing or because we didn't in Rwanda etc etc and that the trumped up lies created as 'reasons' to invade were valid, and that the deaths of 100's of 1000's were just the by product of an unfortunate mistake, and that the subsequent creation and rise of ISIS from Iraq (which is what is really at the heart of this discussion) would have happened anyway etc etc etc that is up to you. And good luck to you with that. But please don't accuse those who don't necessarily believe all of that to be 'loathing of western politics' and 'putting the blame 100% on them'.
It's not as if we didn't have a direct example of what can happen when we facilitate and encourage violence as we did with Saddam ever since the CIA sent him over there to murder Qasim back in the 50's and subsequently take over as ruler.
What happened in Manchester is abominable, tragic and very, very sad. Do whatever you want to supporters of such abhorrent violence. But a vital part of the process is a checking and balancing of our own acts in this sadly violent world. Making blanket excuses and justifications is not helping.
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:44 - May 24 by JamesB1979
Terrorism has evolved over years in method and where they act. Its oversimplifying the situation massively to pinpoint 1 war as the reason for the attacks we see in Europe today.
Changing "1 War" to "foreign policy over the last 30 years" imo offers the main reason for the attacks we see in Europe today.
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 09:12 - May 24 by paulparker
And you don't think the majority of the Muslim population between 16-35 are not radicalized or have a deep hatred for the west already, that they don't see us as infidels or white girls as easy meat and btw this bloke wasn't British, the British way of life is not to go and kill and maim little kids at a pop concert , we helped give and his family a better life and he spat in our faces he isn't british no matter what left apologists try and claim
just out of curiosity il ask you the same question I asked baz , what would you do
No, they aren't. I have a personal story here about a Muslim friend who is dealing devastatingly close to the aftermath of this atrocity, but I shouldn't disclose his personal details and it would feel like trite point scoring. However, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that the majority are - would love to see a source from a reputable research agency with a solid sample size please.
What I would do? Well, it depends what your objective is. Truly defeating Islamic extremism is showing the superiority of western democracy and freedom, and that is through a system that has jews, christians, muslims, sikhs and heathens like me getting along. We can bend and flex and adapt and become stronger. Extremism of every tilt is always so rigid it will always break before it bends.
In the short term
Well, first of all, reverse all the cuts the coalition and Tory governments made to police so that we don't need to use the army to fill gaps if there's an emergency
Continue to empower the security services to do a decent job whilst maintaining civil liberties and maintained our international sharing network through leaving the European Union (and it sounds like sack off the US as our intel won't be safe with them)
In the longer term
After any attack, I always see lots of ordinary muslim groups criticising this, but they seem to never get picked by the wider media. We need to help amplify their voice so that it becomes normal to see ordinary Muslims talking about regular stuff not just stuff about terror. Members of extremist groups make up 0.9% of the global muslim population but receive disproportionate amount of media coverage. We need to break down the us vs them narrative more. EDIT: my main point here is that muslim groups need to get better at comms to get their message across, reread makes it sound more like I'm saying we should just RT them and job done
Crack down on religious only schools (I don't believe them, but I also lived in Stamford Hill for 18 months and they have imo a really negative effect on integration - religion can happen in your spare time, we should have a fully secular education system)
An end to bomb first questions later foreign policy. Our interventions in Iraq and Libya as two examples have both been catastrophic and a gold mine for extremist recruitment. Iraq today shows the template for beating it at its source - popular local forces remove the "crusader" element and make the extremists much easier to defeat and makes a more difficult to radicalise people in the west.
A few other things too.
You'll probably disagree and say that children are dying now, and do take what I say for seemingly like I'm not upset about it. I'm not saying its easy. It's certainly much easier to implement the kind of police state you advocate.
But I was under the impression that in the West we were about liberty and tolerance and freedom. If we lose those things, what moral high ground do we have? What makes us different and better if not for those values? And those are the things that make us stronger and better. Trite perhaps, but I do agree with the paraphrasing of Ben Franklin - those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both
[Post edited 24 May 2017 15:50]
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:07 - May 24 with 2819 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:11 - May 24 by Hayesender
Now imagine for one moment the year is 1939, and nazi sympathisers are marching through the streets of London waving nazi flags and demanding death to Jew's and Christians. Would we have allowed it to happen?
Well fast forward almost 70 years, we have people who hate us and want us dead marching through OUR STREETS calling for our destruction, and the left call it diversity
Almost a Godwin but no prize this time
But yes it's gone too far allowing this. Free speech is one thing but this is hate
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:42 - May 24 by robith
No, they aren't. I have a personal story here about a Muslim friend who is dealing devastatingly close to the aftermath of this atrocity, but I shouldn't disclose his personal details and it would feel like trite point scoring. However, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that the majority are - would love to see a source from a reputable research agency with a solid sample size please.
What I would do? Well, it depends what your objective is. Truly defeating Islamic extremism is showing the superiority of western democracy and freedom, and that is through a system that has jews, christians, muslims, sikhs and heathens like me getting along. We can bend and flex and adapt and become stronger. Extremism of every tilt is always so rigid it will always break before it bends.
In the short term
Well, first of all, reverse all the cuts the coalition and Tory governments made to police so that we don't need to use the army to fill gaps if there's an emergency
Continue to empower the security services to do a decent job whilst maintaining civil liberties and maintained our international sharing network through leaving the European Union (and it sounds like sack off the US as our intel won't be safe with them)
In the longer term
After any attack, I always see lots of ordinary muslim groups criticising this, but they seem to never get picked by the wider media. We need to help amplify their voice so that it becomes normal to see ordinary Muslims talking about regular stuff not just stuff about terror. Members of extremist groups make up 0.9% of the global muslim population but receive disproportionate amount of media coverage. We need to break down the us vs them narrative more. EDIT: my main point here is that muslim groups need to get better at comms to get their message across, reread makes it sound more like I'm saying we should just RT them and job done
Crack down on religious only schools (I don't believe them, but I also lived in Stamford Hill for 18 months and they have imo a really negative effect on integration - religion can happen in your spare time, we should have a fully secular education system)
An end to bomb first questions later foreign policy. Our interventions in Iraq and Libya as two examples have both been catastrophic and a gold mine for extremist recruitment. Iraq today shows the template for beating it at its source - popular local forces remove the "crusader" element and make the extremists much easier to defeat and makes a more difficult to radicalise people in the west.
A few other things too.
You'll probably disagree and say that children are dying now, and do take what I say for seemingly like I'm not upset about it. I'm not saying its easy. It's certainly much easier to implement the kind of police state you advocate.
But I was under the impression that in the West we were about liberty and tolerance and freedom. If we lose those things, what moral high ground do we have? What makes us different and better if not for those values? And those are the things that make us stronger and better. Trite perhaps, but I do agree with the paraphrasing of Ben Franklin - those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both
[Post edited 24 May 2017 15:50]
" those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both "
But is it not also true that those that would trade security for liberty deserve neither and will lose both. Surely we need to find a balance. We have traded many liberties for security, and have traded liberties for the good of the whole. As I said before we get this after every atrocity if nothing extra is done we may as well accept terrorist attacks as a way of life. I personally do not want the liberty of being blown up by some nutter.
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:14 - May 24 with 2789 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:11 - May 24 by Hayesender
Now imagine for one moment the year is 1939, and nazi sympathisers are marching through the streets of London waving nazi flags and demanding death to Jew's and Christians. Would we have allowed it to happen?
Well fast forward almost 70 years, we have people who hate us and want us dead marching through OUR STREETS calling for our destruction, and the left call it diversity
"Would we have allowed it to happen?"
We did. The Blackshirts marched on Cable Street in 1936, and the police arrested the anti-fascist protestors instead.
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:11 - May 24 by QPR_John
" those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both "
But is it not also true that those that would trade security for liberty deserve neither and will lose both. Surely we need to find a balance. We have traded many liberties for security, and have traded liberties for the good of the whole. As I said before we get this after every atrocity if nothing extra is done we may as well accept terrorist attacks as a way of life. I personally do not want the liberty of being blown up by some nutter.
No one does - I wasn't advocating a free for all. But a Judge Dredd approach isn't what we're about, and the evidence from all similar situations shows it's counter intuitive and doesn't work
Edit: also I was paraphrasing Franklin and left out his important qualification of "essential liberty"
[Post edited 24 May 2017 16:16]
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:31 - May 24 with 2736 views
That reminds me...I am always a bit mystified when I hear people say things like 'I don't agree with Iraq but I agree with Afghanistan'. It's imperialism à la carte.
On a related note I am also sceptical when I hear 'anti-imperialist' denunciations of Blair from right wingers who used to get a stiffy whenever they saw Thatcher riding around in a tank. We saw the same isolationist shell game from Trump - until Trump got into office - then it was business as usual.
[Post edited 24 May 2017 14:58]
It would also be fascinating to know how many of the people who now yak on about their opposition to Blair's Iraq War were opposed to it *at the time*
I marched against the war in 2003 (missing us tonking Port Vale in the process). My memory of the mood back then is that a lot of people said me and the other million people out that day were naive, and wanted to wave the white flag, and that if we didn't invade Baghdad and crack heads in Afghanistan, then more and more blood was going to be spilled on Western streets.
Funny how things turn out. Well, not funny - fking tragic, but you get the gist.
The phrase wasn't in use at the time, but I'm pretty certain we'd have been called "snowflakes."
Whereas part of the reason we marched, aside from the illegality of the invasion, was the fact it was always going to end up this way. People said at the time we were going to breed a whole new generation of terrorists from more directions that we could handle. Well, guess what? We did.
Still, it's only history. Why should we take any notice of that?
[Post edited 24 May 2017 16:33]
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:59 - May 24 with 2672 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:16 - May 24 by robith
No one does - I wasn't advocating a free for all. But a Judge Dredd approach isn't what we're about, and the evidence from all similar situations shows it's counter intuitive and doesn't work
Edit: also I was paraphrasing Franklin and left out his important qualification of "essential liberty"
[Post edited 24 May 2017 16:16]
" But a Judge Dredd approach isn't what we're about, and the evidence from all similar situations shows it's counter intuitive and doesn't work"
In other areas in did not work how were they eventually concluded. Peace talks but in this situation who is there to talk to. That is the problem we are up against an enemy that does not want to talk that wants to destroy our way of life. How can you negotiate with people who are happy to commit suicide. So if talking is out what is left. It seems the debate always centres around what we cannot do so lets all wait for the next bomb and once again debate what we cannot do.
[Post edited 24 May 2017 17:05]
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 17:02 - May 24 with 2656 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:31 - May 24 by DannytheR
It would also be fascinating to know how many of the people who now yak on about their opposition to Blair's Iraq War were opposed to it *at the time*
I marched against the war in 2003 (missing us tonking Port Vale in the process). My memory of the mood back then is that a lot of people said me and the other million people out that day were naive, and wanted to wave the white flag, and that if we didn't invade Baghdad and crack heads in Afghanistan, then more and more blood was going to be spilled on Western streets.
Funny how things turn out. Well, not funny - fking tragic, but you get the gist.
The phrase wasn't in use at the time, but I'm pretty certain we'd have been called "snowflakes."
Whereas part of the reason we marched, aside from the illegality of the invasion, was the fact it was always going to end up this way. People said at the time we were going to breed a whole new generation of terrorists from more directions that we could handle. Well, guess what? We did.
Still, it's only history. Why should we take any notice of that?
[Post edited 24 May 2017 16:33]
Was there too
I want Blair in prison but if that does not happen, for everyone to see he is in part to blame
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:31 - May 24 by DannytheR
It would also be fascinating to know how many of the people who now yak on about their opposition to Blair's Iraq War were opposed to it *at the time*
I marched against the war in 2003 (missing us tonking Port Vale in the process). My memory of the mood back then is that a lot of people said me and the other million people out that day were naive, and wanted to wave the white flag, and that if we didn't invade Baghdad and crack heads in Afghanistan, then more and more blood was going to be spilled on Western streets.
Funny how things turn out. Well, not funny - fking tragic, but you get the gist.
The phrase wasn't in use at the time, but I'm pretty certain we'd have been called "snowflakes."
Whereas part of the reason we marched, aside from the illegality of the invasion, was the fact it was always going to end up this way. People said at the time we were going to breed a whole new generation of terrorists from more directions that we could handle. Well, guess what? We did.
Still, it's only history. Why should we take any notice of that?
[Post edited 24 May 2017 16:33]
Fair play to you and the million or so others who could see through the Blair and Bush lies back then.
I'll admit I was naive and taken in by their lies at the time and thought you were all just a bunch of surrender monkeys.
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 16:31 - May 24 by DannytheR
It would also be fascinating to know how many of the people who now yak on about their opposition to Blair's Iraq War were opposed to it *at the time*
I marched against the war in 2003 (missing us tonking Port Vale in the process). My memory of the mood back then is that a lot of people said me and the other million people out that day were naive, and wanted to wave the white flag, and that if we didn't invade Baghdad and crack heads in Afghanistan, then more and more blood was going to be spilled on Western streets.
Funny how things turn out. Well, not funny - fking tragic, but you get the gist.
The phrase wasn't in use at the time, but I'm pretty certain we'd have been called "snowflakes."
Whereas part of the reason we marched, aside from the illegality of the invasion, was the fact it was always going to end up this way. People said at the time we were going to breed a whole new generation of terrorists from more directions that we could handle. Well, guess what? We did.
Still, it's only history. Why should we take any notice of that?
[Post edited 24 May 2017 16:33]
What was happening at the time was quite complex. The main thing was that there was a questioning of imperialism amongst a significant section of society (although even this was ambiguous as reflected in 'I don't agree with Iraq but I agree with Afghanistan' sentiments). No doubt there were some conservatives who were sceptical about the war. However this scepticism received no reflection in Parliament where the overwhelming majority of Conservative MPs voted for war (I can't help suspecting that a lot of the anti-Blair stuff is to shift attention away from the record of the Conservative Party).
Ten years later, the growing scepticism was reflected in Cameron's defeat over bombing Syria in 2013 'the first time in at least 100 years the government had been defeated in its attempts to authorise war' (FT, August 30, 2013).
Air hostess clique
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 18:38 - May 24 with 2480 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:11 - May 24 by Hayesender
Now imagine for one moment the year is 1939, and nazi sympathisers are marching through the streets of London waving nazi flags and demanding death to Jew's and Christians. Would we have allowed it to happen?
Well fast forward almost 70 years, we have people who hate us and want us dead marching through OUR STREETS calling for our destruction, and the left call it diversity
Your last sentence - the left allowed it to happen. The left have been in no position to allow or or ban it. The right (that's the tories ) are in power and have been for some time. They could ban it at any time but they (Cameron and May ) have chosen to allow it. How do you explain that ?
Strong and stable my arse.
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 01:02 - May 25 with 2324 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:24 - May 24 by 2Thomas2Bowles
Mother who was a police woman dead, husband critical, and the 2 kids injured
20 are in a critical condition, and some have lost limbs.
12 children aged under 16
[Post edited 24 May 2017 14:28]
is all fked. To be honest despite my liberal stance on most things, I'm starting to really find it hard to keep making excuses for a religion that seems so weirdly hostile. Not just this stuff. I went to my mate's wedding in a mosque in Thornton Heath years ago and the way they treated the bride - who was the real Muslim in that marriage - was so shoddy and inconsiderate, I really find it hard to see the good in it.
Fair enough, our foreign policy is straight shit but blowing up kids like this, it doesn't get much worse.
Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore.
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 10:32 - May 25 with 2189 views
I'm interested in knowing what other peoples emotions are ATM and how that's changing day to day
While none of us are directly involved (I hope) and I can't imagine what it's like for those that are.
While I've had a few tears and still feel shocked my mood has been sombe not got angry yet and not sure where that anger would be directed apart from the scum that did this
Rightly or wrongly I am feeling some of that anger directed to the government past and present, this scum was clearly someone of interest and it looks like he was traveling abroad to a couple of places in the last few weeks, he had been reported to the police and warned that he was dangerous and I'm finding it harder to excuse those that should be protecting the public in what was already a high rest of attack time. not so much the police but the government with their cuts, they can say how sorry they are for the victims all they like but should also take responsibility that they did not do everything to prevent it.
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:42 - May 24 by robith
No, they aren't. I have a personal story here about a Muslim friend who is dealing devastatingly close to the aftermath of this atrocity, but I shouldn't disclose his personal details and it would feel like trite point scoring. However, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that the majority are - would love to see a source from a reputable research agency with a solid sample size please.
What I would do? Well, it depends what your objective is. Truly defeating Islamic extremism is showing the superiority of western democracy and freedom, and that is through a system that has jews, christians, muslims, sikhs and heathens like me getting along. We can bend and flex and adapt and become stronger. Extremism of every tilt is always so rigid it will always break before it bends.
In the short term
Well, first of all, reverse all the cuts the coalition and Tory governments made to police so that we don't need to use the army to fill gaps if there's an emergency
Continue to empower the security services to do a decent job whilst maintaining civil liberties and maintained our international sharing network through leaving the European Union (and it sounds like sack off the US as our intel won't be safe with them)
In the longer term
After any attack, I always see lots of ordinary muslim groups criticising this, but they seem to never get picked by the wider media. We need to help amplify their voice so that it becomes normal to see ordinary Muslims talking about regular stuff not just stuff about terror. Members of extremist groups make up 0.9% of the global muslim population but receive disproportionate amount of media coverage. We need to break down the us vs them narrative more. EDIT: my main point here is that muslim groups need to get better at comms to get their message across, reread makes it sound more like I'm saying we should just RT them and job done
Crack down on religious only schools (I don't believe them, but I also lived in Stamford Hill for 18 months and they have imo a really negative effect on integration - religion can happen in your spare time, we should have a fully secular education system)
An end to bomb first questions later foreign policy. Our interventions in Iraq and Libya as two examples have both been catastrophic and a gold mine for extremist recruitment. Iraq today shows the template for beating it at its source - popular local forces remove the "crusader" element and make the extremists much easier to defeat and makes a more difficult to radicalise people in the west.
A few other things too.
You'll probably disagree and say that children are dying now, and do take what I say for seemingly like I'm not upset about it. I'm not saying its easy. It's certainly much easier to implement the kind of police state you advocate.
But I was under the impression that in the West we were about liberty and tolerance and freedom. If we lose those things, what moral high ground do we have? What makes us different and better if not for those values? And those are the things that make us stronger and better. Trite perhaps, but I do agree with the paraphrasing of Ben Franklin - those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both
[Post edited 24 May 2017 15:50]
Sorry for the late reply
"Well, first of all, reverse all the cuts the coalition and Tory governments made to police so that we don't need to use the army to fill gaps if there's an emergency "
couldn't agree with you more on that one , there needs to be more police on the ground and more invested in our security services , no one wants troops on the ground but if they are the public needs to support them in the work they are doing
as for Muslims speaking out , yes they should but they need to be doing a lot more , maybe some do and we don't get to hear it , but a case in point is some of the Rotherham grooming gang are now free and are back in the same community as they once were, now im not an expert on islam but I thought this religion is about honour and not bringing shame onto it , why arent they shunned by their community how can they walk the same streets , why are those who appose the west allowed to do so, why are they allowed to keep preaching hate , that's where the muslim community need to be strong and they need to start naming and shaming those "rotten apples" most of this lads family by all reports are all anti west, how is that so, why are they allowed to be here , why arnt they on tag, why are they allowed to pop to Libya when they like , I thought this family originally freed Libya to come here as it wasn't safe as a liberal person surely this makes you angry that people are allowed to settle here but then want to kill innocents, it doesn't help with the likes of andy burnham comparing this to Jo cox, or saying business as usual , the more the public here that the more angry they become, everybody needs to get together and work out how we are going to solve this , if it means sitting down with muslim imams then so be it , tell them what we have to do its then down to them how they portray the message to their community
"Crack down on religious only schools (I don't believe them, but I also lived in Stamford Hill for 18 months and they have imo a really negative effect on integration - religion can happen in your spare time, we should have a fully secular education system) "
again I agree I thought the whole point of multiculturalism was to integrate with others if I settled in another country I would expect my kids to learn about the beliefs , history, and culture of that country , not to go a head and cut yourself off , but this is a two way street all kids going to school should be taught about every other culture in the world not what that particular teachers beliefs are either
"An end to bomb first questions later foreign policy. Our interventions in Iraq and Libya as two examples have both been catastrophic and a gold mine for extremist recruitment. Iraq today shows the template for beating it at its source - popular local forces remove the "crusader" element and make the extremists much easier to defeat and makes a more difficult to radicalise people in the west. "
again I have to agree, we as a country were sold a pup by Blair, Brown , Cameron and may who is not that much better either , if you asked 99.9% of people none of them wanted to get involved in these wars or bombing crusade , it wasn't our problem in the first place, saying that I don't think it would have mattered anyway to those who want to destroy us they still would have done so
as for liberty and freedom , yes that's what we are about and that's what makes us stand out from the rest , but its got to the point to when you say where do you draw the line , we cant keep lighting tea lights and hash tagging and hoping it goes away because its not, what next a nursery ? the horrible thing is we may have to give up some of our liberty to beat this, Muslim people may have to be stopped and searched , mosques may need raiding or bugging we can quote this person and next but something needs to be done now , it doesn't matter if your left, right, liberal, green or whatever everyone needs to be singing from the same hymn sheet
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:19 - May 25 with 2096 views
Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:42 - May 24 by robith
No, they aren't. I have a personal story here about a Muslim friend who is dealing devastatingly close to the aftermath of this atrocity, but I shouldn't disclose his personal details and it would feel like trite point scoring. However, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that the majority are - would love to see a source from a reputable research agency with a solid sample size please.
What I would do? Well, it depends what your objective is. Truly defeating Islamic extremism is showing the superiority of western democracy and freedom, and that is through a system that has jews, christians, muslims, sikhs and heathens like me getting along. We can bend and flex and adapt and become stronger. Extremism of every tilt is always so rigid it will always break before it bends.
In the short term
Well, first of all, reverse all the cuts the coalition and Tory governments made to police so that we don't need to use the army to fill gaps if there's an emergency
Continue to empower the security services to do a decent job whilst maintaining civil liberties and maintained our international sharing network through leaving the European Union (and it sounds like sack off the US as our intel won't be safe with them)
In the longer term
After any attack, I always see lots of ordinary muslim groups criticising this, but they seem to never get picked by the wider media. We need to help amplify their voice so that it becomes normal to see ordinary Muslims talking about regular stuff not just stuff about terror. Members of extremist groups make up 0.9% of the global muslim population but receive disproportionate amount of media coverage. We need to break down the us vs them narrative more. EDIT: my main point here is that muslim groups need to get better at comms to get their message across, reread makes it sound more like I'm saying we should just RT them and job done
Crack down on religious only schools (I don't believe them, but I also lived in Stamford Hill for 18 months and they have imo a really negative effect on integration - religion can happen in your spare time, we should have a fully secular education system)
An end to bomb first questions later foreign policy. Our interventions in Iraq and Libya as two examples have both been catastrophic and a gold mine for extremist recruitment. Iraq today shows the template for beating it at its source - popular local forces remove the "crusader" element and make the extremists much easier to defeat and makes a more difficult to radicalise people in the west.
A few other things too.
You'll probably disagree and say that children are dying now, and do take what I say for seemingly like I'm not upset about it. I'm not saying its easy. It's certainly much easier to implement the kind of police state you advocate.
But I was under the impression that in the West we were about liberty and tolerance and freedom. If we lose those things, what moral high ground do we have? What makes us different and better if not for those values? And those are the things that make us stronger and better. Trite perhaps, but I do agree with the paraphrasing of Ben Franklin - those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both
[Post edited 24 May 2017 15:50]
Such a shame the late Christopher Hitchens is not on this earth. Always enjoyed he views on such topics. He always made total sense.
Bond: "Not until I see Kananga!"
Kananga: "Rightttt... (Starts pulling face off)"
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Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:44 - May 25 with 2056 views
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