| FFP Headroom / P&S BS 14:20 - Aug 21 with 19401 views | Lblock |
Can someone break it down for an idiot like me to understand?
I seem to have it wrong but my understanding is:-
You “allowed” (some would say encouraged) to lose £13Mill a season or £39Mill over 3 years.
Every 3 years the reset button is pressed.
Youth, training, infrastructure and our FFP fine are allowable costs and do not contribute to this amount.
So we are losing a Mill a month x 12 x 3 = £36mill
On top of that add transfers
SJ £625k
Field £250k
Dozzell £1.25Mill
Dykes £1.25Mill
Bonne £1.25Mill
Jordi £400k
Willock £450k
Dickie £1.5Mill
Dunne £450k
Loan fees say £250k
Say about £8.5mill with agent fees thrown in.
So that’s £44.5Mill
Deduct transfers
Eze £18Mill
Jordi £450k (inc a loan fee at first)
Others ….. buttons and fluff.
Balance = £26.05Mill or £8.68Mill a year
Now I’ve NEVER been a fan of us throwing money around and told the Bungle Brothers that their faces. However I just don’t see how we are so perilously close to the FFP limit wire if the above is anywhere near right???
More than happy to be shown I’m way off but I’ve based the above on the factual grounds that are the internet, this website and noises from the club CEO and DoF.
Losing the amount of money we do is a disgrace but I can’t see how this rhetoric that the owners would spend a bit more but their hands are tied actually adds up.
Relaxes back into armchair…….
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| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 14:27 - Aug 21 with 8153 views | stevec |
Think we might be losing £1.5m a month, so £18m on top of the £26 mill you mention and we are over budget.
I think they’re looking to up the loss amount from £13 mill so that should mean we are around about okay, plus the Prem is going to hand over a bit more sometime in the future to EFL clubs, no doubt with caveats, so not a lot of room for manoeuvre. |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 14:33 - Aug 21 with 8137 views | 89_50 |
I may be wrong (likely), but I understand it to be a rolling three-year window rather than a reset every three years.
I think £1m a month we're losing are operating costs to keep the lights on, pay for matchday staff, maintain the premises, etc.
Add onto that the cost of wages for players, staff, etc. and the figure increases further.
Money received for players can be marked as one-off lump sums for the books, to show total incomings, while the cost of acquiring players is spread out over the course of their contracts for accounting reasons.
As we went so big on getting in Charlie, Stef, Gray, etc. last season, what room for manoeuvre we had has been spunked. Which is why we need to sell a player before we can bring in anyone else.
Hopefully someone can correct me, if I've misinterpreted. Thanks. |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 14:45 - Aug 21 with 8070 views | CamberleyR |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 14:33 - Aug 21 by 89_50 |
I may be wrong (likely), but I understand it to be a rolling three-year window rather than a reset every three years.
I think £1m a month we're losing are operating costs to keep the lights on, pay for matchday staff, maintain the premises, etc.
Add onto that the cost of wages for players, staff, etc. and the figure increases further.
Money received for players can be marked as one-off lump sums for the books, to show total incomings, while the cost of acquiring players is spread out over the course of their contracts for accounting reasons.
As we went so big on getting in Charlie, Stef, Gray, etc. last season, what room for manoeuvre we had has been spunked. Which is why we need to sell a player before we can bring in anyone else.
Hopefully someone can correct me, if I've misinterpreted. Thanks. |
That's correct, it's three years rolling so we'll have last year's spending taken into account for the next two seasons following this one before it disappears from the accounts. [Post edited 21 Aug 2022 14:48]
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| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:09 - Aug 21 with 7984 views | daveB |
wages are part of the problem, I don't think we are going to breach the rules but we are close so need to tighten things this season. If we sell someone in this window or in January we'll probably be in a position to spend again
One thing that might change is the Premier League are currently trying to get the EFL to accept that you can lose 105million over 3 years same as the prem which would take away the need for massive parachute payments when you go down |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:14 - Aug 21 with 7970 views | DannytheR |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 14:45 - Aug 21 by CamberleyR |
That's correct, it's three years rolling so we'll have last year's spending taken into account for the next two seasons following this one before it disappears from the accounts. [Post edited 21 Aug 2022 14:48]
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Exactly. Which also means that if, for example, you give Stefan Johansen a three year contract in the summer of 2021, the outlay will still be registering for FFP in 2027... |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:35 - Aug 21 with 7885 views | vanrrrr |
Probably no way out of it unless we sell Chrissy, be gutted but would not be totally surprised if he goes in this window. |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:40 - Aug 21 with 7873 views | Match82 |
In fairness, even if we are not close to the technical FFP limit I doubt the owners WANT to be putting a million of their own money in every month. |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:40 - Aug 21 with 7862 views | kensalriser |
Willock's not going in this window. Providing he stays fit, his value is only going to increase. |  |
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| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:43 - Aug 21 with 7851 views | vanrrrr |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:40 - Aug 21 by kensalriser |
Willock's not going in this window. Providing he stays fit, his value is only going to increase. |
Not unless he signs a new contract it isn’t … he’ll have a year left come this time next season I think. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 16:19 - Aug 21 with 7763 views | derbyhoop |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 15:40 - Aug 21 by Match82 |
In fairness, even if we are not close to the technical FFP limit I doubt the owners WANT to be putting a million of their own money in every month. |
Would that it were so little.  |  |
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| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:04 - Aug 21 with 7566 views | Northernr |
We lose £1.8m a month, as par the last accounts.
That is already right on the line, only under the line because of the disallowable costs you mention.
The biggest reason for that is the wage bill, which we had battled hard to get down under £20m a year, but had crept up above that again in the last accounts, and will definitely have gone up again last season with the business we did and the players we signed and carried. |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:52 - Aug 21 with 7453 views | StreathamRanger |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:04 - Aug 21 by Northernr |
We lose £1.8m a month, as par the last accounts.
That is already right on the line, only under the line because of the disallowable costs you mention.
The biggest reason for that is the wage bill, which we had battled hard to get down under £20m a year, but had crept up above that again in the last accounts, and will definitely have gone up again last season with the business we did and the players we signed and carried. |
Is that wage bill just for the players? £20 million gives you a squad of 25 on £800k per year. That's 13k a week on average per player. Surely we're not doing that even if we did push the boat out on Austin and Johansen. Who else is in the big money? | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:54 - Aug 21 with 7448 views | Northernr |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:52 - Aug 21 by StreathamRanger |
Is that wage bill just for the players? £20 million gives you a squad of 25 on £800k per year. That's 13k a week on average per player. Surely we're not doing that even if we did push the boat out on Austin and Johansen. Who else is in the big money? |
Almost certain it's wage bill for the whole club, but will check that next time I'm talking to somebody who would know.
Without checking I think wage bill had got up towards £24m for the last set of accounts (2020/21) and if you think who we added to that last summer without a sale I'd be astonished if it's not higher than that in the next set (2021/22) which is our big problem and why there's zero money to spend now. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:57 - Aug 21 with 7440 views | StreathamRanger |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:54 - Aug 21 by Northernr |
Almost certain it's wage bill for the whole club, but will check that next time I'm talking to somebody who would know.
Without checking I think wage bill had got up towards £24m for the last set of accounts (2020/21) and if you think who we added to that last summer without a sale I'd be astonished if it's not higher than that in the next set (2021/22) which is our big problem and why there's zero money to spend now. |
Whole club makes a bit more sense. My maths was wrong and it's actually closer to £16k per week if it was just players which would be madness given some of the players in our squad. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:59 - Aug 21 with 7435 views | Northernr |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:57 - Aug 21 by StreathamRanger |
Whole club makes a bit more sense. My maths was wrong and it's actually closer to £16k per week if it was just players which would be madness given some of the players in our squad. |
The really disappointing thing is a couple of years back we'd got the wage bill under £20m, and the top earner was on £10k - and quite a chunk of that was bonuses. It's why Manning and BOS wouldn't resign, because we wouldn't break that structure for them. Now we've broken the structure, gone for it, missed out, and we're in the bin again. That loss of discipline at that point is a shame.
Caveated by, hands up, we were all loving it at the time, saying Johansen was a must and so on. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:59 - Aug 21 with 7433 views | Lblock |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:04 - Aug 21 by Northernr |
We lose £1.8m a month, as par the last accounts.
That is already right on the line, only under the line because of the disallowable costs you mention.
The biggest reason for that is the wage bill, which we had battled hard to get down under £20m a year, but had crept up above that again in the last accounts, and will definitely have gone up again last season with the business we did and the players we signed and carried. |
£1.8mill?! Jesus!
That explains a lot then
Makes me question where the wage drain is as clearly other clubs like Blackpool, Lootown etc have more bang for their buck.
What a mess……. | |
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| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:01 - Aug 21 with 7428 views | Northernr |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:59 - Aug 21 by Lblock |
£1.8mill?! Jesus!
That explains a lot then
Makes me question where the wage drain is as clearly other clubs like Blackpool, Lootown etc have more bang for their buck.
What a mess……. |
Luton is a very fair example. You can't throw your hands up and say 'well Loftus Road hamstrings us' etc when there's a team playing in Kenilworth Road recruiting better, smarter, for less.
I think a more legitimate question than why haven't we got more money to spend, why can't we make more signings, etc is why aren't we doing more and getting more from the money we're already spending. The signings that come through Andy Belk and the analytics team are, by and large, very good, but a lot of the other stuff we do and money we spend isn't. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:06 - Aug 21 with 7416 views | StreathamRanger |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 19:59 - Aug 21 by Northernr |
The really disappointing thing is a couple of years back we'd got the wage bill under £20m, and the top earner was on £10k - and quite a chunk of that was bonuses. It's why Manning and BOS wouldn't resign, because we wouldn't break that structure for them. Now we've broken the structure, gone for it, missed out, and we're in the bin again. That loss of discipline at that point is a shame.
Caveated by, hands up, we were all loving it at the time, saying Johansen was a must and so on. |
There must be a fair few on more than 10k per week. I wonder if they've been a bit tighter on the wages for JCS and Paal. Bonne was brought in for a fair bit so he's probably on a few quid which makes him harder to shift. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:08 - Aug 21 with 7407 views | Northernr |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:06 - Aug 21 by StreathamRanger |
There must be a fair few on more than 10k per week. I wonder if they've been a bit tighter on the wages for JCS and Paal. Bonne was brought in for a fair bit so he's probably on a few quid which makes him harder to shift. |
Oh yeh, there's a lot now. Austin, Johansen, people like that, don't get out of bed for £10k a week. And that's why we're tight to the line again. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:11 - Aug 21 with 7398 views | StreathamRanger |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:08 - Aug 21 by Northernr |
Oh yeh, there's a lot now. Austin, Johansen, people like that, don't get out of bed for £10k a week. And that's why we're tight to the line again. |
That's a shame to hear as I was definitely under the impression we'd got our house in order. Like you say, we've got to look to get more from what we're spending in the way other clubs seem to be able to. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:16 - Aug 21 with 7382 views | Northernr |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:11 - Aug 21 by StreathamRanger |
That's a shame to hear as I was definitely under the impression we'd got our house in order. Like you say, we've got to look to get more from what we're spending in the way other clubs seem to be able to. |
Still done some very smart stuff as well tbf - willock, amos, dickie, chair, dieng, field, dunne is all great recruitment on a small budget. | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:20 - Aug 21 with 7366 views | StreathamRanger |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 20:16 - Aug 21 by Northernr |
Still done some very smart stuff as well tbf - willock, amos, dickie, chair, dieng, field, dunne is all great recruitment on a small budget. |
That's true. Need at least one big sale from that lot this year. Most likely Willock, maybe Dickie or Dieng. The rest are good championship standard but not much money changing hands for that kind of player at the moment. There was a tweet from someone about how few clubs in the Championship have spent any money on transfers this summer. Seems everyone is broke. Meanwhile forest spend £35 million on Gibbs White. Crazy! | | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 21:40 - Aug 21 with 7224 views | Nushnool |
On the wages point, and what can be told by the annual accounts:
Staff costs in the 2020/21 season were £24.1m. That includes employer contributions on national insurance and pensions, so the gross wages figure is £21.2m.
That amount is for all employees of the club (171 people in total, 113 of which are "players, managers and coaches"). So average wage is £2.4k a week, but that includes everyone from Charlie Austin to Connor in the box office.
£1.4m of the staff costs was for "key management"....LH, LF, anyone else? |  | | |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 22:18 - Aug 21 with 7150 views | PunteR |
| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 21:40 - Aug 21 by Nushnool |
On the wages point, and what can be told by the annual accounts:
Staff costs in the 2020/21 season were £24.1m. That includes employer contributions on national insurance and pensions, so the gross wages figure is £21.2m.
That amount is for all employees of the club (171 people in total, 113 of which are "players, managers and coaches"). So average wage is £2.4k a week, but that includes everyone from Charlie Austin to Connor in the box office.
£1.4m of the staff costs was for "key management"....LH, LF, anyone else? |
Yeh i was going to ask this question. How much of wage budget goes to manager and coaching staff and dare i say it ..DoF.? |  |
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| FFP Headroom / P&S BS on 22:40 - Aug 21 with 7097 views | Rangersw12 |
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