| Growing the Economy 18:22 - Jun 8 with 941 views | johnlangy |
When talking about how the Government go about this people say there are only a few things they can do to achieve it. To make money available to improve the economy they can increase taxes, cut spending or borrow. One group of the usual suspects would argue they can't increase taxes, another group of them would say they can't cut spending and yet another group would say they can't borrow the money.
But part of the answer (quite a large part i'd say) will be the very boring subject of planning reform which they've already set in motion. If they do achieve what they've set out to achieve this could have an enormous effect.
Investment in infrastructure is always described as the best way of boosting an economy. Apparently the return to the economy is 3/4/5 (or more) times the cost of the project. But we all know what happens with infrastructure developments in this country. They take far too long and always go way over budget.
Take the Lower Thames Crossing. This was first proposed in 2009 and is now estimated to be open in 2032. So far £300 million has been spent just getting through the planning stages. And eventually the scheme is due to cost about £10 billion. So the benefit to the economy won't kick in till 23 years after the scheme was first put forward.
Imagine if planning reforms had been in place in 2009. Planning regulations have to be followed but how many times have we read about spurious legal actions holding up these projects. Remember the bat tunnel which held up HS2 and cost £100 million ?
Now imagine that ten years was cut off the planning timescale. That would still have left six years for the planning stage which would appear to be perfectly reasonable. So the tunnel would have been completed in 2022.
Not only would the £10 billion cost be substantially reduced the economy would start benefiting from the uplift ten years early.
The savings and the benefit to the economy would be many, many billions.
I'm sure you're all desperate to discuss such an exciting subject .  |  | | |  |
| Growing the Economy on 18:45 - Jun 8 with 723 views | Whiterockin |
Was the second severn crossing worth the money yes and it has generated more than the cost. Would the brynglas tunnel bypass have been worth the money yes and it would have boosted the economy of South Wales beyond recognition. It all depends where the infrastructure money is spent. |  | | |
| Growing the Economy on 22:57 - Jun 8 with 652 views | Boundy |
| Growing the Economy on 18:45 - Jun 8 by Whiterockin |
Was the second severn crossing worth the money yes and it has generated more than the cost. Would the brynglas tunnel bypass have been worth the money yes and it would have boosted the economy of South Wales beyond recognition. It all depends where the infrastructure money is spent. |
Imo The heads of the Valleys upgrade is too late to benefit the now extinct industrial sector of s Wales ,great for local traffic and for the midlands tourists heading for Tenby but that's it really but with the onset of the tourism tax even that if predictions are correct even that will be down in volume.A modern system serving a mid 20th century economy. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Growing the Economy on 07:32 - Jun 9 with 610 views | Dr_Winston |
You can't grow the economy by raising taxes, the cost of doing business, and the difficulty of doing business in general. The left has never understood this. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Growing the Economy on 09:22 - Jun 9 with 572 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Growing the Economy on 07:32 - Jun 9 by Dr_Winston |
You can't grow the economy by raising taxes, the cost of doing business, and the difficulty of doing business in general. The left has never understood this. |
I wonder what what happen if you had a tax regime that was competitive with other countries and encouraged companies to invest and grow, a legislative and regulation regime that encouraged internal and external investment and long term strategic plans for health, housing, pensions, transport etc. that provided certainty. |  |
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| Growing the Economy on 09:48 - Jun 9 with 560 views | max936 |
| Growing the Economy on 09:22 - Jun 9 by JACKMANANDBOY |
I wonder what what happen if you had a tax regime that was competitive with other countries and encouraged companies to invest and grow, a legislative and regulation regime that encouraged internal and external investment and long term strategic plans for health, housing, pensions, transport etc. that provided certainty. |
You'd need a forward thinking Government with people with the intelligence to work all that out though.
Thatcher started the demise of the manufacturing industry, meaning that we have to pay massively over the odds for substandard products from Asia etc, she was seen at the time as a Woman ahead of her time,  |  |
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| Growing the Economy on 09:57 - Jun 9 with 558 views | johnlangy |
I just did a very quick comparison between the UK and Denmark tax regimes. There has been a huge growth in the level of taxes in the UK with the total of GDP which goes in taxes is now 37%. In Denmark the figure is 46%.
I looked at a site called economicshelp (just because it was the first I picked up). This is what it says.
'Imagine an economy with high wages, low debt, public services which work, a short working week and free university tuition. It’s kind of the opposite to the UK, which has seen wage stagnation, growing debt, unaffordable housing and long waiting lists.
This model economy does actually exist – It’s Denmark, which can claim to be the 2nd happiest country in the world, one of the highest levels of trust and the lowest levels of corruption in the world. However, there is a catch to this model economy. It also happens to have the highest tax rates in the world. In Denmark, nearly 46% of GDP is collected in tax. In 1993, the UK tax share was just 29%, but recently has increased to over 37%. But, even this increase in the tax rate has not been enough to meet the growing demand for public services. Should the UK try and follow the Scandanavian model of higher taxes, or would it simply not work in the UK?
Since 2008, the whole of Western Europe has struggled. GDP per capita growth has been the worst in the post-war period. But one of the better performers has been Denmark, beaten only by Ireland which is distorted by the impact of tax avoiding inward investment. That’s another story. But, the important thing is Denmark shows that high tax is not a barrier to economic growth, investment and innovation. Whilst taxes are high, it is not a socialist economy, the private sector is not managed by the government, but firms are given considerable freedom to invest. Private firms also benefit from a relatively strong public sector. Infrastructure which works, investment in education, good health system all complement private business, reducing business costs and encouraging investment.' | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 10:05 - Jun 9 with 550 views | onehunglow |
| Growing the Economy on 09:57 - Jun 9 by johnlangy |
I just did a very quick comparison between the UK and Denmark tax regimes. There has been a huge growth in the level of taxes in the UK with the total of GDP which goes in taxes is now 37%. In Denmark the figure is 46%.
I looked at a site called economicshelp (just because it was the first I picked up). This is what it says.
'Imagine an economy with high wages, low debt, public services which work, a short working week and free university tuition. It’s kind of the opposite to the UK, which has seen wage stagnation, growing debt, unaffordable housing and long waiting lists.
This model economy does actually exist – It’s Denmark, which can claim to be the 2nd happiest country in the world, one of the highest levels of trust and the lowest levels of corruption in the world. However, there is a catch to this model economy. It also happens to have the highest tax rates in the world. In Denmark, nearly 46% of GDP is collected in tax. In 1993, the UK tax share was just 29%, but recently has increased to over 37%. But, even this increase in the tax rate has not been enough to meet the growing demand for public services. Should the UK try and follow the Scandanavian model of higher taxes, or would it simply not work in the UK?
Since 2008, the whole of Western Europe has struggled. GDP per capita growth has been the worst in the post-war period. But one of the better performers has been Denmark, beaten only by Ireland which is distorted by the impact of tax avoiding inward investment. That’s another story. But, the important thing is Denmark shows that high tax is not a barrier to economic growth, investment and innovation. Whilst taxes are high, it is not a socialist economy, the private sector is not managed by the government, but firms are given considerable freedom to invest. Private firms also benefit from a relatively strong public sector. Infrastructure which works, investment in education, good health system all complement private business, reducing business costs and encouraging investment.' |
Imagine selling the idea of 46 % tax to UK voters
Almost one for you , one for me
They have a different mindset entirely | |
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| Growing the Economy on 10:13 - Jun 9 with 548 views | Whiterockin |
| Growing the Economy on 10:05 - Jun 9 by onehunglow |
Imagine selling the idea of 46 % tax to UK voters
Almost one for you , one for me
They have a different mindset entirely |
The 46% tax would be easier to hit if you reform social benefit and cut immigration to Denmark's level. More people working in proper jobs with proper wages and less claiming benefit who could be working, putting all the money being spent on immigration back into the economy. Would people really complain if tax was higher if their standard of living was higher and they had a health and social system that actually worked. | | | |
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| Growing the Economy on 10:50 - Jun 9 with 530 views | controversial_jack |
| Growing the Economy on 07:32 - Jun 9 by Dr_Winston |
You can't grow the economy by raising taxes, the cost of doing business, and the difficulty of doing business in general. The left has never understood this. |
Growth isn't everything . I would prefer better public services.Even if the economic grows, it doesn't mean we will get better services. Economic growth is just a figure that means little in practical terms to most people.
The link between tax and economic growth is not always clear cut. This study for ta
x rates in the EU, found that countries with higher tax burdens, like Scandinavian countries had slightly higher growth rates than lower tax countries, like Italy and Greece. But, if you take Greece and Italy, is the low growth due to tax rates or other problems like ageing population, cronyism, lack of investment and political instability?
In the post-war period, the US had much higher rates of personal income tax on the rich and higher corporation tax. In recent decades, corporation tax and higher income tax has been reduced, however, growth rates have fallen.
So, the left do understand | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 12:20 - Jun 9 with 517 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Growing the Economy on 10:50 - Jun 9 by controversial_jack |
Growth isn't everything . I would prefer better public services.Even if the economic grows, it doesn't mean we will get better services. Economic growth is just a figure that means little in practical terms to most people.
The link between tax and economic growth is not always clear cut. This study for ta
x rates in the EU, found that countries with higher tax burdens, like Scandinavian countries had slightly higher growth rates than lower tax countries, like Italy and Greece. But, if you take Greece and Italy, is the low growth due to tax rates or other problems like ageing population, cronyism, lack of investment and political instability?
In the post-war period, the US had much higher rates of personal income tax on the rich and higher corporation tax. In recent decades, corporation tax and higher income tax has been reduced, however, growth rates have fallen.
So, the left do understand |
You still don't get it. It is private business and industries that drive growth and increase tax revenues that can be spent on services.
Unfortunately heavily taxing business, reduces investments, increases unemployed leading to higher welfare bills, less income tax, less NI, less VAT, less corporation and ends up with everyone being less well off. | |
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| Growing the Economy on 12:36 - Jun 9 with 495 views | controversial_jack |
| Growing the Economy on 12:20 - Jun 9 by felixstowe_jack |
You still don't get it. It is private business and industries that drive growth and increase tax revenues that can be spent on services.
Unfortunately heavily taxing business, reduces investments, increases unemployed leading to higher welfare bills, less income tax, less NI, less VAT, less corporation and ends up with everyone being less well off. |
No, it doesn't. We have often done well under higher tax systems. It makes me wonder how these Scandinavian countries with higher tax systems are doing so much better than we are
You are still thinking the the discredited neo liberal mindset. Taxes can be invested into the infrastructure. The countries that have better infrastructures do better.
Better transport, better health care , education are so much more important than many believe | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 12:39 - Jun 9 with 498 views | Martyn |
| Growing the Economy on 12:20 - Jun 9 by felixstowe_jack |
You still don't get it. It is private business and industries that drive growth and increase tax revenues that can be spent on services.
Unfortunately heavily taxing business, reduces investments, increases unemployed leading to higher welfare bills, less income tax, less NI, less VAT, less corporation and ends up with everyone being less well off. |
100% correct. | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 16:07 - Jun 9 with 447 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Growing the Economy on 09:57 - Jun 9 by johnlangy |
I just did a very quick comparison between the UK and Denmark tax regimes. There has been a huge growth in the level of taxes in the UK with the total of GDP which goes in taxes is now 37%. In Denmark the figure is 46%.
I looked at a site called economicshelp (just because it was the first I picked up). This is what it says.
'Imagine an economy with high wages, low debt, public services which work, a short working week and free university tuition. It’s kind of the opposite to the UK, which has seen wage stagnation, growing debt, unaffordable housing and long waiting lists.
This model economy does actually exist – It’s Denmark, which can claim to be the 2nd happiest country in the world, one of the highest levels of trust and the lowest levels of corruption in the world. However, there is a catch to this model economy. It also happens to have the highest tax rates in the world. In Denmark, nearly 46% of GDP is collected in tax. In 1993, the UK tax share was just 29%, but recently has increased to over 37%. But, even this increase in the tax rate has not been enough to meet the growing demand for public services. Should the UK try and follow the Scandanavian model of higher taxes, or would it simply not work in the UK?
Since 2008, the whole of Western Europe has struggled. GDP per capita growth has been the worst in the post-war period. But one of the better performers has been Denmark, beaten only by Ireland which is distorted by the impact of tax avoiding inward investment. That’s another story. But, the important thing is Denmark shows that high tax is not a barrier to economic growth, investment and innovation. Whilst taxes are high, it is not a socialist economy, the private sector is not managed by the government, but firms are given considerable freedom to invest. Private firms also benefit from a relatively strong public sector. Infrastructure which works, investment in education, good health system all complement private business, reducing business costs and encouraging investment.' |
Denmark's individual tax policy
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/denmark/individual/taxes-on-personal-income
And the tax take as a percentage of GDP by country.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/tax-to-gdp-ratio-by-country [Post edited 9 Jun 16:12]
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| Growing the Economy on 18:21 - Jun 9 with 368 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Growing the Economy on 10:13 - Jun 9 by Whiterockin |
The 46% tax would be easier to hit if you reform social benefit and cut immigration to Denmark's level. More people working in proper jobs with proper wages and less claiming benefit who could be working, putting all the money being spent on immigration back into the economy. Would people really complain if tax was higher if their standard of living was higher and they had a health and social system that actually worked. |
nailhit squarely on the head there. If we had all those things and we had better roads, proces were lower and the economy was performing as well as Denmarks?
What we have though is high (ish) taxes but with a badly failing public sector and no politician clever enough (or who has the the will) to change that. | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 19:00 - Jun 9 with 338 views | johnlangy |
| Growing the Economy on 10:13 - Jun 9 by Whiterockin |
The 46% tax would be easier to hit if you reform social benefit and cut immigration to Denmark's level. More people working in proper jobs with proper wages and less claiming benefit who could be working, putting all the money being spent on immigration back into the economy. Would people really complain if tax was higher if their standard of living was higher and they had a health and social system that actually worked. |
It would be brilliant if the benefits bill could be radically reduced. AFAIK the largest single group of people on benefits are working people. If that group were paid a proper living wage (even high wage as reported in this article applies in Denmark) it would be very interesting to see how much that would reduce the benefits bill. £30/40/50 billion ?
Imagine that, businesses having to pay their workers a good enough wage that they could manage to live without having to be subsidised by the tax payer. Whatever will people think of next. | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 19:02 - Jun 9 with 337 views | johnlangy |
By the way WR, the sarcasm at the end wasn't directed at you. The thought is something i've been bumping my gums about for a long time. | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 19:28 - Jun 9 with 321 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Growing the Economy on 19:00 - Jun 9 by johnlangy |
It would be brilliant if the benefits bill could be radically reduced. AFAIK the largest single group of people on benefits are working people. If that group were paid a proper living wage (even high wage as reported in this article applies in Denmark) it would be very interesting to see how much that would reduce the benefits bill. £30/40/50 billion ?
Imagine that, businesses having to pay their workers a good enough wage that they could manage to live without having to be subsidised by the tax payer. Whatever will people think of next. |
Gordon Brown introduced in work benefits, the dull idiot could not forsee that businesses would hold down wages and let the Government take up the he slack or that people would work the system so they worked less but had their income made up. | |
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| Growing the Economy on 08:15 - Jun 10 with 193 views | Dr_Winston |
Who could possibly have seen this coming?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp92edelzero | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Growing the Economy on 08:36 - Jun 10 with 181 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
I guess it's the same people who thought that the last budget would drive up borrowing costs. | |
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| Growing the Economy on 08:37 - Jun 10 with 180 views | Kilkennyjack |
John - maybe we could join a huge pan European market to boost our economy, look after working people with more jobs, and protect our natural environment.
Some sort of economic union…?
In fairness good old Boris Johnson suggested the very same thing to Ukraine.
Closer economic integration might help keep the peace in Europe as well.
Just a thought …. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Growing the Economy on 08:41 - Jun 10 with 179 views | felixstowe_jack |
Unemployment increased again this month. What a surprise the huge April job tax on businesses has resulted in 50,000 more people joining the unemployment list.
The only area were jobs are increasing are in the public sector especially central government. Despite this Public sector output is 5% lower than before Covid. | |
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| Growing the Economy on 09:10 - Jun 10 with 142 views | Whiterockin |
| Growing the Economy on 08:41 - Jun 10 by felixstowe_jack |
Unemployment increased again this month. What a surprise the huge April job tax on businesses has resulted in 50,000 more people joining the unemployment list.
The only area were jobs are increasing are in the public sector especially central government. Despite this Public sector output is 5% lower than before Covid. |
The cost of employing now even on the minimum wage is really high and employers are thinking about if they can manage with less staff. The minimum wage of £12.21 for over 21s is not the true cost. Employers NI contribution is now 15% after the first £5,000 pa it was £9,800 and you have to factor in another 10% to cover holiday pay. So the true cost of employing someone on the minimum wage is not £12.21 but actually £15.26 obviously this increases up through the pay grades. Of course people should be able to earn more, but to try and tax employers so much when things are tight is just insanity and it has obviously backfired on the government. | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 10:32 - Jun 10 with 93 views | controversial_jack |
| Growing the Economy on 09:10 - Jun 10 by Whiterockin |
The cost of employing now even on the minimum wage is really high and employers are thinking about if they can manage with less staff. The minimum wage of £12.21 for over 21s is not the true cost. Employers NI contribution is now 15% after the first £5,000 pa it was £9,800 and you have to factor in another 10% to cover holiday pay. So the true cost of employing someone on the minimum wage is not £12.21 but actually £15.26 obviously this increases up through the pay grades. Of course people should be able to earn more, but to try and tax employers so much when things are tight is just insanity and it has obviously backfired on the government. |
Tight for employers? Big companies and corps are making record profits.
Should i as a worker pay more NI or my employer? A no brainer really | | | |
| Growing the Economy on 11:01 - Jun 10 with 86 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Growing the Economy on 10:32 - Jun 10 by controversial_jack |
Tight for employers? Big companies and corps are making record profits.
Should i as a worker pay more NI or my employer? A no brainer really |
Most people work in SMEs who are getting hit hard by increased tax, business rates, minimum wage increases and tightening of employment law all at the same time. Unemployment is up and vacancies down again this month, the government have set parameters around how much you pay people and how many you employ before you pay more NI. Companies will contract to fit the parameters. | |
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