| Survey results as reported in the Times 13:28 - Aug 6 with 950 views | saint901 |
Apparently some 4% of immigrants are here "illegally" or have arrived by informal means (a boat across the channel).
Apparently some 47% of voters think that illegal immigrants outnumber those encouraged to come here to contribute to our society and coffers.
Apparently this rises to over 70% amongst those voters who would support Reform or have sympathies with organisations designated as being on the far right.
A worrying demonstration of the power of those with a voice to distort and corrupt.
The selective messages being delivered by all politicians in which facts are ignored or abused or quoted out of context is leading to a situation in which it's becoming not a question of what to believe but rather a choice to disbelieve everything we are told.
If we then have a situation in which there are no hard facts to rely upon, the ground is ripe for any old nonsense to be planted and grow into today's chosen conspiracy.
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 14:10 - Aug 6 with 886 views | yateleysaint |
No human is illegal. |  |
| You cannot reason a person out of something they were not reasoned into. |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 14:48 - Aug 6 with 863 views | saintmark1976 |
Thus it ever was.
Oldest phrase in the newspaper industry “ Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 14:56 - Aug 6 with 846 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 14:48 - Aug 6 by saintmark1976 |
Thus it ever was.
Oldest phrase in the newspaper industry “ Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. |
I'm always a bit baffled by how football fans can be taken in by scapegoating of groups or lies to make them out to be worse than they are.
As a football fan you must've grown up with made up stories in the press about football fans, seen how governments turn us into objects of fear and spread lies to encourage draconian laws or target individuals.
You only need to look back and the multiple fake stories, cover ups and outright lies told to know the game.
But then when the same tactics are used against another group it's not even questioned.
It's really bizarre to be honest, we should be the first to point out that it's not likely to be true as we've been on the receiving end |  | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:04 - Aug 6 with 829 views | Bazza |
Surely all coming across by dinghy without papers are initially illegal? | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:13 - Aug 6 with 821 views | saint22 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 14:10 - Aug 6 by yateleysaint |
No human is illegal. |
This
It’s all nationalism masquerading as racism | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:33 - Aug 6 with 794 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:04 - Aug 6 by Bazza |
Surely all coming across by dinghy without papers are initially illegal? |
The opposite actually, no one arriving is illegal until they've had an asylum application turned down. At which point they then become illegal.
The papers and the likes of Farage actually know this but it doesn't help the narrative | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:00 - Aug 6 with 760 views | Bazza |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:33 - Aug 6 by franniesTache |
The opposite actually, no one arriving is illegal until they've had an asylum application turned down. At which point they then become illegal.
The papers and the likes of Farage actually know this but it doesn't help the narrative |
Doesn’t that mean they can wander around or go missing (as many will) until they raise paperwork. How is this sensible? | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:16 - Aug 6 with 739 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:00 - Aug 6 by Bazza |
Doesn’t that mean they can wander around or go missing (as many will) until they raise paperwork. How is this sensible? |
It's just how international law works, you are duty bound to claim asylum when you land, then technically you're neither legal nor illegal until the claim is processed.
It's why - if i remember rightly - the biggest nationality of illegal immigrants in the uk is Australians. Because when they outstay their visa they're technically illegal. | | | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:25 - Aug 6 with 714 views | saintmark1976 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:16 - Aug 6 by franniesTache |
It's just how international law works, you are duty bound to claim asylum when you land, then technically you're neither legal nor illegal until the claim is processed.
It's why - if i remember rightly - the biggest nationality of illegal immigrants in the uk is Australians. Because when they outstay their visa they're technically illegal. |
Spot on franniesTache.
Both facts conveniently forgotten by the red top newspapers to encourage some of their readers to waste their’s and the police’s time stood outside hotels. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:40 - Aug 6 with 680 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:25 - Aug 6 by saintmark1976 |
Spot on franniesTache.
Both facts conveniently forgotten by the red top newspapers to encourage some of their readers to waste their’s and the police’s time stood outside hotels. |
If i remember rightly (and it's been a while since i've done anything international law related) almost every country on earth is signed up to the UN Charter that sets it out in law with the exception of North Korea, Russia, Afghanistan, Cuba, America and possibly Hungary.
Even Pakistan and Iraq signed up to it fairly recently i believe (though i think Pakistan was civil law as part of an agreement with India) | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:09 - Aug 6 with 640 views | 1885_SFC |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:04 - Aug 6 by Bazza |
Surely all coming across by dinghy without papers are initially illegal? |
They do have papers... but toss them overboard halfway across the English Channel - as you would. |  |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:17 - Aug 6 with 613 views | City_boy |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:25 - Aug 6 by saintmark1976 |
Spot on franniesTache.
Both facts conveniently forgotten by the red top newspapers to encourage some of their readers to waste their’s and the police’s time stood outside hotels. |
Whilst it is wrong that some Ozzies overstay their visa and are here technically illegally, the chances are they haven't been given a property/hotel, benefits and free health care. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:24 - Aug 6 with 581 views | solent_toffee |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:09 - Aug 6 by 1885_SFC |
They do have papers... but toss them overboard halfway across the English Channel - as you would. |
Most of them will hand their papers to the scumbags traffickers who they pay to bring them to the UK. Although trying to get hold of papers in countries such as Syria, Afghanistan and Sudan with no existing or dysfunctional governments is also very difficult. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:29 - Aug 6 with 577 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:17 - Aug 6 by City_boy |
Whilst it is wrong that some Ozzies overstay their visa and are here technically illegally, the chances are they haven't been given a property/hotel, benefits and free health care. |
They absolutely would have access to free health care at the point of use, as would any person in the country as it's the core principle of the NHS (and what makes so it great).
As for the other part it's pretty irrelevant in the eyes of the law, however you've arrived here your status is determined by that law.
There have been some amendments since 1951, most notably 1967 and 1974 (i think) but by and large it's the same everywhere in the world.
So the facts of the law are that a person who arrives on the shore - however they arrive - and stays somewhere - whereever they stay - is not legal or illegal until the claim is processed.
Someone who overstays a visa is immediately illegal.
Which i guess is the murky side of this survey, because people don't always understand the legalities and so in many ways the question is unfair. It's asking an easily misconstrued question "who many illegal immigrants are there in your estimation" which has a factual answer "the amount is down to those who've over stayed visas or remained after their application has been rejected".
Now most people won't think that, when asked they'll think "how many have arrived in the country via non traditional routes" so they've answered it to the best of their ability/knowledge (and with a degree of bias based on the current media framing).
Which makes the question/article pretty clickbait and unhelpful as it frames people as lacking knowledge, rather than framing the question as leading to get a headline | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:41 - Aug 6 with 552 views | solent_toffee |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:17 - Aug 6 by City_boy |
Whilst it is wrong that some Ozzies overstay their visa and are here technically illegally, the chances are they haven't been given a property/hotel, benefits and free health care. |
Asylum seekers get £8 per week for personal subsistence such as travel, personal stuff e.g soap, shampoo etc. They also have no recourse to any ESOL classes until six months after their application is made.
I’ve been working in this sector for the past twenty five years. The amount of nonsense that gets puts out the papers and social media has got significantly worse. I’ve spent nine months in the past year in a hotel in the south east. It was (probably still is) a Holiday Inn. All of the remnants of the hotel that it previously was have been stripped off. No gym, no nice reception. Food is brought in by a private company three times a day and is a free for all. Think of an indoor soup kitchen and you’d be right. There are security firm staff everywhere. I’ve honestly worked in more welcoming and supportive prisons.
The one thing that stuck out for me is the eye watering amounts of money that is given to these companies and the disgusting lack of value for money that it represents.
There has to be a review of this as it’s staggering. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:43 - Aug 6 with 538 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 17:41 - Aug 6 by solent_toffee |
Asylum seekers get £8 per week for personal subsistence such as travel, personal stuff e.g soap, shampoo etc. They also have no recourse to any ESOL classes until six months after their application is made.
I’ve been working in this sector for the past twenty five years. The amount of nonsense that gets puts out the papers and social media has got significantly worse. I’ve spent nine months in the past year in a hotel in the south east. It was (probably still is) a Holiday Inn. All of the remnants of the hotel that it previously was have been stripped off. No gym, no nice reception. Food is brought in by a private company three times a day and is a free for all. Think of an indoor soup kitchen and you’d be right. There are security firm staff everywhere. I’ve honestly worked in more welcoming and supportive prisons.
The one thing that stuck out for me is the eye watering amounts of money that is given to these companies and the disgusting lack of value for money that it represents.
There has to be a review of this as it’s staggering. |
I'd put good money on the people getting those contracts being conservative party donors too (well possible labour now given they're in power). | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 18:41 - Aug 6 with 484 views | Butty101 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 16:16 - Aug 6 by franniesTache |
It's just how international law works, you are duty bound to claim asylum when you land, then technically you're neither legal nor illegal until the claim is processed.
It's why - if i remember rightly - the biggest nationality of illegal immigrants in the uk is Australians. Because when they outstay their visa they're technically illegal. |
The fact is these immigrants should be claiming a safe haven well before they see the white cliffs of Dover.
I’m not sure your Aussie stat is correct I would like to see proof before I accept that. What is a fact is that Mohammed is for the 2nd year running the most popular boys baby name and highlights the impact illegal/legal immigration is having on our nation.
I would prefer a little Britain much and don’t want a one Europe . What I love about travelling is each countries heritage and quirkinesses. It’s a bit like the identykit high streets that we are faced with now days |  |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 19:26 - Aug 6 with 443 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 18:41 - Aug 6 by Butty101 |
The fact is these immigrants should be claiming a safe haven well before they see the white cliffs of Dover.
I’m not sure your Aussie stat is correct I would like to see proof before I accept that. What is a fact is that Mohammed is for the 2nd year running the most popular boys baby name and highlights the impact illegal/legal immigration is having on our nation.
I would prefer a little Britain much and don’t want a one Europe . What I love about travelling is each countries heritage and quirkinesses. It’s a bit like the identykit high streets that we are faced with now days |
I think you’re mistaking opinion with facts here. I’m not stating an opinion, in fact I’m intentionally not getting involved in that conversation. I’m just stating the facts as they’re written in the law.
I could also be wrong on the Aussie thing as it came from memory as I’m sure I read it somewhere. I also would be surprised if it was south Asian due to family links and expired visa too | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 08:52 - Aug 7 with 229 views | kingolaf |
Going back to the original post - this is a really good point. Legal migration went through the roof under the Tories. We need skills, but a lot of those coming in were abusing the student visa to get their families in as well.
Illegal migration continues to be a huge problem. For me, anyone who enters the country illegally should not be able to stay. It’s not fair that they jump the queue. Illegal migrants also disproportionately cost the taxpayer an absolute fortune so it is a problem that desperately needs sorting.
Legal migration in its current numbers is not sustainable. We need to skill-up our own workers, and get the lazy workshy back in employment. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 09:52 - Aug 7 with 170 views | mushinexile |
Illegal immigration doesn't cost you half as much as subsidising millionaires through Universal Credit. The poor are not your enemy. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:42 - Aug 7 with 79 views | saint901 |
One of the issues arising here is the cynical manipulation of what should be hard facts by power hungry egoists.
The old saying that if you say something often enough and loud enough it becomes the truth. remains valid but has been taken to a new level.
Now we have people who think it acceptable to lies about everything not because they want you to believe their lies necessarily but because they want you to question what you're being told by everybody. The benefit from chaos. | | | |
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