| Who would replace our current owners? 10:29 - Feb 5 with 5116 views | vetchonian |
Many shouts of get out of our club yesterday and many comments on here
Dont get me wrong I'm no lover of the current owners but they have put money into the club backed Martin with the purchase of Fisher and Darling....what great signings they turned out to be.
We are in a fairly decent state financially compared with other clubs in this division and when you look at our cousins up the road which would you rather.
When it is suggested our manager is replaced the question is raised so who will come which will replace him
so I ask those who are demanding the removal of Steve,,Jason ,Jake et al who will sweep in and buy us and throw money at us? |  |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 10:43 - Feb 6 with 1212 views | pencoedjack |
Terry Matthews
I can dream. |  | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 10:47 - Feb 6 with 1197 views | Whiterockin |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 10:20 - Feb 6 by Fireboy2 |
We do need a striker after Saturdays debacle, according to a few who went whose judgment I trust, cullen missed three sitters, we go 3 nil up the game is killed off so we do need another striker
Was also told that whittaker played like he didn't give a flying f@#%, he needs to buck his ideas up as the next few games are going to be vital. |
Firstly Whittaker is not a front man he needs to play as a 10 to ask him to play up front by himself was just stupid. Secondly although he was working we were under so much pressure he didn't see the ball and we did not look to play it to him. Cullen played OK and the blame must be purley Martins tactics and decisions, with the defenders and keeper having a long hard look at themselves. |  | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:13 - Feb 6 with 1180 views | KeithHaynes |
Nobody will replace our current owners is the answer.
As we have said, they move discussions, they move the goalposts, they withdraw from agreements and take so long they are pointless.
By the time they get anything sorted eighteen months will have past. |  |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:29 - Feb 6 with 1162 views | Luther27 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:13 - Feb 6 by KeithHaynes |
Nobody will replace our current owners is the answer.
As we have said, they move discussions, they move the goalposts, they withdraw from agreements and take so long they are pointless.
By the time they get anything sorted eighteen months will have past. |
Have to ask the question why are they here? According to them they are keeping the club afloat…£16 million? I always assumed hedge funds were there to make money not lose it. | | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:03 - Feb 6 with 1122 views | Dr_Winston |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:29 - Feb 6 by Luther27 |
Have to ask the question why are they here? According to them they are keeping the club afloat…£16 million? I always assumed hedge funds were there to make money not lose it. |
Are they a hedge fund? |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:04 - Feb 6 with 1121 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:29 - Feb 6 by Luther27 |
Have to ask the question why are they here? According to them they are keeping the club afloat…£16 million? I always assumed hedge funds were there to make money not lose it. |
Their problem is they have already lost a fortune.
They must be about £40,000,000 down by now basing that on the club being worth around £35,000,000, which is basically just the worth of the players and the club's name.
The only way that they can recover that cash is to get us back in to the premiership and then sell at improved value that being in the prem brings.
Bearing that in mind it really makes you wonder just how good their business acumen is.
It probably means that they had no faith in investing more money in a Martin run team to get us back up and are saving the cash until someone better comes along.
Their other problem is that they are very susceptible to a "good salesman" who can sell themselves by saying all the things that they want to hear without having the footballing nous to realise they aren't actually that good.
So can they actually pick someone who can do the job? [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 12:37]
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:17 - Feb 6 with 1104 views | Luther27 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:03 - Feb 6 by Dr_Winston |
Are they a hedge fund? |
Ah…consortium leaders. | | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:18 - Feb 6 with 1099 views | Dr_Winston |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:17 - Feb 6 by Luther27 |
Ah…consortium leaders. |
Closer. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:29 - Feb 6 with 1086 views | jack247 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:04 - Feb 6 by A_Fans_Dad |
Their problem is they have already lost a fortune.
They must be about £40,000,000 down by now basing that on the club being worth around £35,000,000, which is basically just the worth of the players and the club's name.
The only way that they can recover that cash is to get us back in to the premiership and then sell at improved value that being in the prem brings.
Bearing that in mind it really makes you wonder just how good their business acumen is.
It probably means that they had no faith in investing more money in a Martin run team to get us back up and are saving the cash until someone better comes along.
Their other problem is that they are very susceptible to a "good salesman" who can sell themselves by saying all the things that they want to hear without having the footballing nous to realise they aren't actually that good.
So can they actually pick someone who can do the job? [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 12:37]
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Every time we sell our best player(s) and replace cheaply. In theory at least, it gets that bit harder. Whoever follows Martin will have a tougher task.
Of course, they could unearth a brilliant unknown manager, but even then, the club won’t have the finance to back him. They didn’t with Potter and they didn’t with Cooper when it looked like he had a decent chance of automatic. I suspect it more that they can’t than they won’t.
The most likely scenario IMO is they won’t recover that cash. When they eventually do sell up, they’ll take a substantial hit. | | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:43 - Feb 6 with 1067 views | KeithHaynes |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:29 - Feb 6 by Luther27 |
Have to ask the question why are they here? According to them they are keeping the club afloat…£16 million? I always assumed hedge funds were there to make money not lose it. |
For me.
They are here because they have the investments of the hedge fund to protect and will lose a lot of face if money is lost. They only bought the club because they felt the trading at the time could deliver a profit. | |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:45 - Feb 6 with 1064 views | whiterock |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:29 - Feb 6 by jack247 |
Every time we sell our best player(s) and replace cheaply. In theory at least, it gets that bit harder. Whoever follows Martin will have a tougher task.
Of course, they could unearth a brilliant unknown manager, but even then, the club won’t have the finance to back him. They didn’t with Potter and they didn’t with Cooper when it looked like he had a decent chance of automatic. I suspect it more that they can’t than they won’t.
The most likely scenario IMO is they won’t recover that cash. When they eventually do sell up, they’ll take a substantial hit. |
Not sure about this, yes selling our better players and replacing with younger, inexperienced players can weaken but not necessarily.
Not for the first time RM has thrown away good positions, not just Saturday, I know all clubs could add up dodgy offsides or dodgy penalties given against them but we don't need the help of dodgy officials.
Lets be kind, 12 points are down to RM and his project. | | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:04 - Feb 6 with 1051 views | Dr_Winston |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:43 - Feb 6 by KeithHaynes |
For me.
They are here because they have the investments of the hedge fund to protect and will lose a lot of face if money is lost. They only bought the club because they felt the trading at the time could deliver a profit. |
It's not a hedge fund, or not one that meets any description of the type that I've ever seen.
Consortium or investment group is a more fitting title for what they are. Kaplan was the biggest player and financial source to begin with, Levien having a large stake and then dozens of small time members. Silverstein joining later.
Kaplan is still the single largest shareholder last time I heard, although he mostly acts as a silent partner these days. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:08 - Feb 6 with 1045 views | KeithHaynes |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:04 - Feb 6 by Dr_Winston |
It's not a hedge fund, or not one that meets any description of the type that I've ever seen.
Consortium or investment group is a more fitting title for what they are. Kaplan was the biggest player and financial source to begin with, Levien having a large stake and then dozens of small time members. Silverstein joining later.
Kaplan is still the single largest shareholder last time I heard, although he mostly acts as a silent partner these days. |
I always thought “ Hedge funds pool money from investors and invest in securities or other types of investments with the goal of getting positive returns“
Either way it’s a collection of people who didn’t put money in for a charitable cause. And put money in they did. | |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:15 - Feb 6 with 1020 views | Dr_Winston |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:08 - Feb 6 by KeithHaynes |
I always thought “ Hedge funds pool money from investors and invest in securities or other types of investments with the goal of getting positive returns“
Either way it’s a collection of people who didn’t put money in for a charitable cause. And put money in they did. |
Hedge funds deal in different things over shorter periods, mostly far more liquid assets than football clubs. Securities being a good example from your description.
With us, no doubt they bought for £100m thinking that after three or four years they might double that.
Plan failed, but as I said elsewhere, they've undoubtedly had a nice write down against tax so I wouldn't have thought any of them except maybe Kaplan is out of pocket by that much. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:28 - Feb 6 with 1010 views | jack247 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 12:45 - Feb 6 by whiterock |
Not sure about this, yes selling our better players and replacing with younger, inexperienced players can weaken but not necessarily.
Not for the first time RM has thrown away good positions, not just Saturday, I know all clubs could add up dodgy offsides or dodgy penalties given against them but we don't need the help of dodgy officials.
Lets be kind, 12 points are down to RM and his project. |
To be clear, that’s not an excuse for some of our performances. I’ve said on a different thread I think both Potter and Cooper would get more from this squad.
It won’t always do, you’re right, but as a general rule of thumb it will. Selling your best players and bringing in much cheaper replacements, over a period of time, is inevitably going to weaken the side. | | | |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:30 - Feb 6 with 1008 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 11:29 - Feb 6 by Luther27 |
Have to ask the question why are they here? According to them they are keeping the club afloat…£16 million? I always assumed hedge funds were there to make money not lose it. |
People need to understand how hedge funds work before talking about them. I think I know the basics but by no means an expert. I will share my modest wisdom. Please correct me if not 100% correct. i looked it up a few year back for my own interest.
Lets assume Kaplan and Levien head a 'Hedge fund' for arguments sake. They then are the 'Principals' .
If you invest with Legal and General in an investment they will offer an open ended investment OEIC type investment. You pay Legal and general a fee to manage the fund and pick shares bonds etc for you if it is a managed fund . It is cheaper if you buy a tracker fund as it works automatically. You are protected by HM Government from both fraud and negligence by the FCA . Financial Conduct Authority. For example if L&G put a lump sum in Swansea city they would be called negligent as it is way too high risk. They would be asked to pay a fine and compensate investors. You accept a risk profile when you sign up. Swansea is off the risk scale. Win big (Jenkins and Morgan) lose big (US guys) up to now.
How is a hedge fund different?.
Firstly the owners of the hedge fund have to be invested as well. This means the people investing in the hedge fund know the people they are paying are invested as well. Legal and General do not have their own money in the funds they sell. Levien uses that unpleasant phrase of "having skin in the game". This is what he means.
The Principals as i understand it can still make money from Swansea city holding despite paying no dividends. They get a return not off the club or from Wales but from the 28 investors in the fund. The dentists and film stars such as the lovely Mindi. The fees may be 2-3% at a total guess. £67m x 0.02 = £1.34m for the principles. After relegation this drops to £440k pa these days.
This money notionally would go to you know who (the Principals). For this reason perhaps the dapper Jason looked cheerful and upbeat but Jake looked angry and depressed?
As I understand it I cannot join a Hegde fund. You have to demonstrate you are very well healed with big assets and able to lose all of you money. If that happens you have no where to go. It is assumed you know what you were doing and did research.
I assume the investors are happy because although Swansea's asset value is a 30% of what it was, DC united's asset value has probably rocketed. It takes £300m to buy out their Franchise. DC have a ready made spanking news stadium and fans base. If They sold DC united they might sell Swansea at the same time to offset tax on profits. Overall if the investors are in DC and Swansea they will accept the rough with the smooth.
DC and Swansea may be pooled together as two separate companies in the same fund but with no links between them.
I would love to see synergies with DC and Swansea players interchanging. Brandon Cooper and Congreve , Abdullai playing this summer for DC. Sadly Swansea fans reacted badly to 50 capped Arriola with 7 international goals coming to Swansea. I do not believe for one minute he was less of a player than Barry Mckay .
The £16m (now perhaps £11m) is gaining 5% interest (paid in s new shares?) and the share being bought are cheap. The Trust by not investing are being diluted. The "yanks" must look at the Trust and wonder "what do we have by here?". The answer is a form of British "women's institute" type organisation that only want guaranteed existence and a place in the VIP seats on match day. It is a political construct not a business construct. They could cut membership to £1 pa. It does not matter a jot. They do not know what to do with their money. It is "unAmerican". "A quaint Limey committee who can get feisty and cause trouble. Handle with care". (Notional quotes).
If Swansea get promoted under Levien the Fund skyrockets to 400%. the £16m becomes £50-60m. The Principals fees goes up and fund members can cash in if a buyer can be found for their holding. They do not need to wait for the club to be sold. Silverstein is buying cheap shares and Levien talks about growth potential. They are effectively buying the Trust's percentage holding in the club. Why the Trust is not in the CLN is beyond my comprehension.
It looks as if the US guys have lost faith in Russ and told him to wise up and show some mettle for the rest of the season a having taken a few hits to the ego. I cannot for the life of me understand what is going on with Patterson. Martins job is to get the workers working.
Fans love religious symbolism. I hope Martin has 'seen Jesus on the long walk to Damascus' and comes out fighting with renewed vigour. The Championship is a hard school to learn the ropes. Personally I believe the failure to get a big shot experience assistant in at the start of the season was a mistake. Colin Calderwood was mentioned. Martin does not need yes men that could not even point out the subs situation on Saturday to him KoL and 'Gilly'.
Hope that help s kindly etc Show the love and it is only a opinion. Hegde funds are high risk specialist investment. Win big lose big. This is why Welsh conservatives feel uneasy about the practice. [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 16:33]
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 14:57 - Feb 6 with 967 views | KeithHaynes |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:15 - Feb 6 by Dr_Winston |
Hedge funds deal in different things over shorter periods, mostly far more liquid assets than football clubs. Securities being a good example from your description.
With us, no doubt they bought for £100m thinking that after three or four years they might double that.
Plan failed, but as I said elsewhere, they've undoubtedly had a nice write down against tax so I wouldn't have thought any of them except maybe Kaplan is out of pocket by that much. |
Surely Swansea City were a liquid asset back then, still are today though but worth far less.
We can disagree on the choice of wording but Americans have been doing this for years.
Chelsea are being referred to as a consortium and hedge fund. Americans again. | |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 15:09 - Feb 6 with 961 views | Dr_Winston |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 14:57 - Feb 6 by KeithHaynes |
Surely Swansea City were a liquid asset back then, still are today though but worth far less.
We can disagree on the choice of wording but Americans have been doing this for years.
Chelsea are being referred to as a consortium and hedge fund. Americans again. |
A football club is not a liquid asset. Far from it.
The current ownership model far more matches that of FSG. One major shareholder and many smaller ones. They don't get described as a hedge fund because they aren't one. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 15:13 - Feb 6 with 955 views | NotLoyal |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 15:09 - Feb 6 by Dr_Winston |
A football club is not a liquid asset. Far from it.
The current ownership model far more matches that of FSG. One major shareholder and many smaller ones. They don't get described as a hedge fund because they aren't one. |
Chelsea have been. |  |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 15:17 - Feb 6 with 942 views | KeithHaynes |
We will have to disagree doc as my understanding is that a liquid asset is an inventory in the holding of the investment that can be turned into cash. The inventory at Swansea is the players and associated shackles. However quickly they can be sold.
Liquid assets are also shares, of which the club is entirely made up of. | |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 16:23 - Feb 6 with 912 views | Dr_Winston |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 15:17 - Feb 6 by KeithHaynes |
We will have to disagree doc as my understanding is that a liquid asset is an inventory in the holding of the investment that can be turned into cash. The inventory at Swansea is the players and associated shackles. However quickly they can be sold.
Liquid assets are also shares, of which the club is entirely made up of. |
No problem. Happy to ATD. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 16:56 - Feb 6 with 885 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 13:30 - Feb 6 by ReslovenSwan1 |
People need to understand how hedge funds work before talking about them. I think I know the basics but by no means an expert. I will share my modest wisdom. Please correct me if not 100% correct. i looked it up a few year back for my own interest.
Lets assume Kaplan and Levien head a 'Hedge fund' for arguments sake. They then are the 'Principals' .
If you invest with Legal and General in an investment they will offer an open ended investment OEIC type investment. You pay Legal and general a fee to manage the fund and pick shares bonds etc for you if it is a managed fund . It is cheaper if you buy a tracker fund as it works automatically. You are protected by HM Government from both fraud and negligence by the FCA . Financial Conduct Authority. For example if L&G put a lump sum in Swansea city they would be called negligent as it is way too high risk. They would be asked to pay a fine and compensate investors. You accept a risk profile when you sign up. Swansea is off the risk scale. Win big (Jenkins and Morgan) lose big (US guys) up to now.
How is a hedge fund different?.
Firstly the owners of the hedge fund have to be invested as well. This means the people investing in the hedge fund know the people they are paying are invested as well. Legal and General do not have their own money in the funds they sell. Levien uses that unpleasant phrase of "having skin in the game". This is what he means.
The Principals as i understand it can still make money from Swansea city holding despite paying no dividends. They get a return not off the club or from Wales but from the 28 investors in the fund. The dentists and film stars such as the lovely Mindi. The fees may be 2-3% at a total guess. £67m x 0.02 = £1.34m for the principles. After relegation this drops to £440k pa these days.
This money notionally would go to you know who (the Principals). For this reason perhaps the dapper Jason looked cheerful and upbeat but Jake looked angry and depressed?
As I understand it I cannot join a Hegde fund. You have to demonstrate you are very well healed with big assets and able to lose all of you money. If that happens you have no where to go. It is assumed you know what you were doing and did research.
I assume the investors are happy because although Swansea's asset value is a 30% of what it was, DC united's asset value has probably rocketed. It takes £300m to buy out their Franchise. DC have a ready made spanking news stadium and fans base. If They sold DC united they might sell Swansea at the same time to offset tax on profits. Overall if the investors are in DC and Swansea they will accept the rough with the smooth.
DC and Swansea may be pooled together as two separate companies in the same fund but with no links between them.
I would love to see synergies with DC and Swansea players interchanging. Brandon Cooper and Congreve , Abdullai playing this summer for DC. Sadly Swansea fans reacted badly to 50 capped Arriola with 7 international goals coming to Swansea. I do not believe for one minute he was less of a player than Barry Mckay .
The £16m (now perhaps £11m) is gaining 5% interest (paid in s new shares?) and the share being bought are cheap. The Trust by not investing are being diluted. The "yanks" must look at the Trust and wonder "what do we have by here?". The answer is a form of British "women's institute" type organisation that only want guaranteed existence and a place in the VIP seats on match day. It is a political construct not a business construct. They could cut membership to £1 pa. It does not matter a jot. They do not know what to do with their money. It is "unAmerican". "A quaint Limey committee who can get feisty and cause trouble. Handle with care". (Notional quotes).
If Swansea get promoted under Levien the Fund skyrockets to 400%. the £16m becomes £50-60m. The Principals fees goes up and fund members can cash in if a buyer can be found for their holding. They do not need to wait for the club to be sold. Silverstein is buying cheap shares and Levien talks about growth potential. They are effectively buying the Trust's percentage holding in the club. Why the Trust is not in the CLN is beyond my comprehension.
It looks as if the US guys have lost faith in Russ and told him to wise up and show some mettle for the rest of the season a having taken a few hits to the ego. I cannot for the life of me understand what is going on with Patterson. Martins job is to get the workers working.
Fans love religious symbolism. I hope Martin has 'seen Jesus on the long walk to Damascus' and comes out fighting with renewed vigour. The Championship is a hard school to learn the ropes. Personally I believe the failure to get a big shot experience assistant in at the start of the season was a mistake. Colin Calderwood was mentioned. Martin does not need yes men that could not even point out the subs situation on Saturday to him KoL and 'Gilly'.
Hope that help s kindly etc Show the love and it is only a opinion. Hegde funds are high risk specialist investment. Win big lose big. This is why Welsh conservatives feel uneasy about the practice. [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 16:33]
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This was from Sportico .
{D.C. United is controlled by Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, who were previously investors in the Memphis Grizzlies before they bought U.K. soccer club Swansea City. D.C. was valued at roughly $60 million, a then-MLS record, when Levien invested back in 2012. Sportico valued the team at $630 million 14 months ago.}
That is a $570m mark up for Levien / Kaplan and their fellow investors. Early bird catches the worm. No wonder the lovely Mindi is not too worried about The Swans. They play some lovely soccer.
A notional investor in the Levien / Kaplan fund.
For investors with them for 12 years
DC United 2010 Invested $ 1m now worth $10.50m Profit $9.5m on sale
Swansea City 2016 Invested $1m now worth £330k Loss $660m.
Net gain $8.84m for $2m invested in 2010. I could live with that.
I know zilch about Australian basket ball. The quote Errol Brown RIP "everyone is a winner". I thought Jason looked very chipper in the zoom making little jokes. No wonder.
https://www.sportico.com/leagues/soccer/2022/dc-united-valued-800-million-minori [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 22:13]
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| Who would replace our current owners? on 20:58 - Feb 6 with 816 views | Luther27 |
| Who would replace our current owners? on 16:56 - Feb 6 by ReslovenSwan1 |
This was from Sportico .
{D.C. United is controlled by Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, who were previously investors in the Memphis Grizzlies before they bought U.K. soccer club Swansea City. D.C. was valued at roughly $60 million, a then-MLS record, when Levien invested back in 2012. Sportico valued the team at $630 million 14 months ago.}
That is a $570m mark up for Levien / Kaplan and their fellow investors. Early bird catches the worm. No wonder the lovely Mindi is not too worried about The Swans. They play some lovely soccer.
A notional investor in the Levien / Kaplan fund.
For investors with them for 12 years
DC United 2010 Invested $ 1m now worth $10.50m Profit $9.5m on sale
Swansea City 2016 Invested $1m now worth £330k Loss $660m.
Net gain $8.84m for $2m invested in 2010. I could live with that.
I know zilch about Australian basket ball. The quote Errol Brown RIP "everyone is a winner". I thought Jason looked very chipper in the zoom making little jokes. No wonder.
https://www.sportico.com/leagues/soccer/2022/dc-united-valued-800-million-minori [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 22:13]
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My heads mince! The murky world of finance and tax always drove me to the medicine cabinet.
But thank you for trying to explain to a numpty like me! | | | |
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