Forum | Would you support a wealth tax? by saint901

Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread

Would you support a wealth tax? 12:07 - Jul 14 with 2172 views

The right wing press is working itself up into a lather about the prospect of a wealth tax being introduced.

For example, one suggestion is an annual 2% tax on all "wealth" over £10m.

I suspect that number is chosen because anybody with a decent house in London may be well on the way to that figure and as such it gets the readers excited and engaged - clickbait.

There are then various estimates of how much a wealth tax would raise with anything from £2bn a year to more than £20bn. The numbers are all over the place and tainted with political bias to make any objective sense.

Most European countries have tried a wealth tax in the past and so far as I can see all but two of them have retreated from such a charge. The exceptions are Switzerland and Norway, with the latter coming under pressure to remove the charge on the grounds of cost vs income.

Switzerland makes it work but also has a range of incentives such as being able to pay a flat rate if you are in certain bands of wealth. It also allows some wealth to be excluded, such as private houses used as homes. Switzerland tax reporting is also done quarterly if your income/wealth is over certain limits, via the internet, processed quickly and appeals are only allowed in limited situations and are expensive.

France, Germany and Italy have all had wealth taxes in the past, now dropped as it "encouraged avoidance" and also led to an exodus of wealth from the country.

Good ides - bad politics or good politics - bad idea?

Would you support a wealth tax on 07:30 - Jul 15 with 668 views

mushinexile

Would you support a wealth tax on 23:43 - Jul 14 by saint22
fair enough up to a point and I agree wealthy exploit every loophole they can but there are also plenty who take advantage of the benefit system those who pay whopping taxes fund thats where the system is broken

There's a lot more money siphoned off by the tax loopholes exploited by the rich than the benefit claimants will ever be able to get their hands on, honestly or otherwise.
The tax you pay to provide necessary universal credit to working people, for example, is a direct subsidy to those too greedy to pay them a living wage.

Poll:

Should the BBC show Glastonbury or Wimbledon?

Would you support a wealth tax on 08:20 - Jul 15 with 620 views

saintmark1976

Would you support a wealth tax on 19:15 - Jul 14 by mushinexile
The country 's wealth but not that of its people because most houses belong to the financial institution that owns the mortgage

Fair point but even so 35% of houses are still owned mortgage free.

An up to date assessment of house values ( the last one being in 1991 ) wether mortgage free or not would surely be a starting point to raise revenue for councils to provide services would it not ?

Poll:

Where will we finish in the upcoming season?

Would you support a wealth tax on 08:32 - Jul 15 with 606 views

saintmark1976

Would you support a wealth tax on 23:03 - Jul 14 by Bazza
Can’t say that’s the only problem; the continually growing massive investment in the civil service and nhs without corresponding productivity improvements plus the record numbers of people able but not working just taking benefits. I’m reluctantly paying more tax towards funding poorly organised unproductive public sector and the feckless.

Last available figures for the “ feckless “ ( whatever that may mean ) taking benefits actually show that £23 billion annually remained unclaimed Bazza.

Poll:

Where will we finish in the upcoming season?

Would you support a wealth tax on 09:45 - Jul 15 with 539 views

franniesTache

Would you support a wealth tax on 08:32 - Jul 15 by saintmark1976
Last available figures for the “ feckless “ ( whatever that may mean ) taking benefits actually show that £23 billion annually remained unclaimed Bazza.

Also the amount of money lost to fraud and errors for benefits in the uk is estimated at £8.6bn (annoyingly the ONS doesn't separate the two so you can't see which is which), but the amount lost to tax avoidance is £36bn, and the amount lost to non doms £10bn and the amount lost to tax avoidance by big business is £30bn.

So even using the largest figure of fraud at the bottom of £8.6bn it's a drop in the ocean compared to the ~£76bn that the richest in society don't pay due to various forms of tax avoidance.

Would you support a wealth tax on 19:42 - Jul 15 with 444 views

SalisburySaint

Would you support a wealth tax on 23:03 - Jul 14 by Bazza
Can’t say that’s the only problem; the continually growing massive investment in the civil service and nhs without corresponding productivity improvements plus the record numbers of people able but not working just taking benefits. I’m reluctantly paying more tax towards funding poorly organised unproductive public sector and the feckless.

Paying useless CEO’s ridiculous salaries and bonuses is also part of the problem, such as the one for Thames Water, who got a bonus despite them making massive losses

Chris Weston (CEO of Thames Water) has a total pay package that includes:
1. Base salary: £850,000 per year
2. Pension: £102,000 per year
3. Car allowance: £15,000 per year
4. Bonus: Up to 156% of his salary, which could be worth over £1.3 million

Would you support a wealth tax on 20:38 - Jul 15 with 423 views

Bazza

Would you support a wealth tax on 07:10 - Jul 15 by Heisenberg

How do you get productivity improvements in the NHS ? It cares for sick people. The UK has an aging population and there have been massive advances in medicine and treatment options available. Its future looks increasingly challenging as people live longer . You are just spouting nonsense management talk. Sick people are not products. The basic premise is if you want free healthcare then the Govt will have to fund it through tax increases. Unless you support Farage who has made it quite clear what he thinks of the NHS.

Thanks for your critique but the nhs is not perfect so it can be improved. Too many overpaid managers. Expensive equipment not being used effectively. Losing young doctors overseas after expensive training, ineffective IT implementation. The nhs is also consistently using private services so gradually becoming private despite huge funding increases every year.

Would you support a wealth tax? on 00:14 - Jul 16 with 367 views

Chesham_Saint

The answer to the original question is: No, I would not.

Poll:

Which manager would you prefer Saints to have?

Would you support a wealth tax on 00:19 - Jul 16 with 362 views

saint22

Would you support a wealth tax on 19:42 - Jul 15 by SalisburySaint

yeah and I would like to know where all that water goes from the incessant rain and floods from October to May then then means we have hosepipe bans after 3 weeks of sun

Would you support a wealth tax on 10:09 - Jul 16 with 271 views

saintmark1976

Would you support a wealth tax on 00:19 - Jul 16 by saint22
yeah and I would like to know where all that water goes from the incessant rain and floods from October to May then then means we have hosepipe bans after 3 weeks of sun

Easy answer to your question saint22.

Not into new reservoirs because there hasn’t been one built in this country since 1992.

Why? Because water companies massive profits have been given to their management and share holders and not reinvested.

Now we have domestic hose pipe usage banned in large parts of the country. A purely token gesture given that the vast majority of our water is used by commercial industry.

Welcome to 21st century UK, where an industries’s raw material simply drops out of the sky but they are still allowed to cock it up for their users whilst massively increasing their prices.

An utterly pathetic situation allowed to happen by successive equally pathetic governments.

Poll:

Where will we finish in the upcoming season?

Would you support a wealth tax on 10:43 - Jul 16 with 256 views

1885_SFC

Would you support a wealth tax on 10:09 - Jul 16 by saintmark1976

The only new fresh water reservoir currently being constructed in the whole of England is just down the road from me in Havant. It's due to be completed in 2029 - but as with all-things Portsmouth Water related, don't hold your breath.

Ironically, Southern Water have just this morning issued a hosepipe ban for the whole of Hampshire & the IoW starting Monday. You couldn't make it up.

The rest is as you say - decades of underfunding, profits creamed off, dreadful mismanagement, etc.

I drive twice-a-week to Arundel in West Sussex on business. Hand on heart, I cannot believe the amount of new houses that have been built along the 30-mile journey from home. There are literally thousands of new homes in Chichester, Fontwell, Barnham, Yapton and thousands more being built right now next to Ford Airfield/Prison. No new reservoirs of course with which to supply all these new homes - let alone sewerage plants to handle all the waste water. And we all know where raw sewerage is ending up nowadays!

Like just about everything else in the UK these days, it's all about profits for the shareholders and fcuk the actual infrastructure that's badly needed.

Old Skool is Cool

Would you support a wealth tax? on 09:18 - Jul 17 with 144 views

saint901

Some interesting responses here.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/684c5622bd35d2f88bcba359/fig_1_2.

The chart here is measures the "tax gap". The tax gap is the difference between what theoretical maximum HMRC thinks is due and what they actually collect. A word of caution - HMRC actually know very little about tax but aggressively chase those who know less often with tragic consequences.

So this value of tax "lost" is largely seen as meaningless by those of us who work in tax but is converted into a weapon by political parties of all shades when they need one. They can shape that weapon as they please because the number has very little integrity.

What is worth noting however is that in HMRC's eyes, the largest component of the tax gap is lost corporation tax.

Lost income tax is a relatively low percentage and drilling into that shows that the majority is from the "black economy" which is basically people working cash in hand and not declaring income. (That said in some industries this sort of payment is an organised and large scale activity, e.g. construction, rag trade.)

Lost VAT is a major issue and is accelerating and mainly is around smuggling tobacco and alcohol as well as high value hi tech items.

The idea that a wealthy person has a menu of ways in which they can avoid income tax is simply false. HMRC has fought a decades long battle on income tax avoidance and largely won it. Almost every income tax saving device is challenged, even when it complies with the law, and HMRC has several different units who focus on the high net worth community.

It is also a fallacy that a highly paid lawyer can find ways to save you tax. Tax cases in the courts are littered with the wreckage of the careers of "highly paid" lawyers.

NO - I'm afraid that the apparent correlation between "wealthy people" and "tax avoidance" is one that owes more to personal/political persuasion, than fact.

The tax gap has been stable for a while. Despite every new administration claiming to raise funds by "cracking down" on tax avoidance and evasion, it does not move much. (I should say that I think the number is actually a political tool rather than any useful metric).

This is one reason why - if the UK wants to increase its spending, we need to raise more tax and a wealth tax is one way to do that.

There is a lot of nonsense in the press about how many millionaires are leaving. There is less mention that in the past ten years the UK has created something like 20 times the number of millionaires now allegedly leaving. However those advising this group love to create jeopardy and play on the "how much money is enough money" focus that some of these people have.

Politically, imposing a tax on say 0.25% of the population and raising enough (eventually) to buy one new tank or one new helicopter is better than raising 1p on the basic rate from 20+ million. And that is why we may see it.

I've not addressed some of the questions here about the spending side of the equation. I will say (as a long ago ex civil servant) that the numbers in the service today are about the same as they were in 2000. There are about 475k full time equivalents now. In 2015 the number was about 50,000 less. When Labour was elected, about 10,000 fewer than now.

Whilst I think the civil service is inefficient, (esp HMRC who are a disaster), they are doing more with only slightly more people.

Would you support a wealth tax? on 10:20 - Jul 17 with 116 views

Heisenberg

Stop spending vasts amounts of money on armed forces. We are no longer a super power with an ability to police or fund wars around the world. We need to get the UK working again and invest here to provide proper jobs and get the welfare bill down.

It’s not hugely costly but reduce the number of MPs get rid of the Lords and cut the civil list right down. And tax absent landlords. And anyone doing business here needs to pay tax.

	â€œLife has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously'
Poll:	Who should get a statue outside the old girl ?

Would you support a wealth tax? on 11:58 - Jul 17 with 78 views

saint901

Would you support a wealth tax? on 10:20 - Jul 17 by Heisenberg

If we are to provide a deterrent to Russia and their imperial ambitions, spending around twice what we do now in order to hold our corner (and influence) in NATO is crucial. The Ukraine situation shows that no single nation can hold out forever against a powerhouse of lunatics in Russia.

"Proper jobs"? The curb on immigration will lead to shortages in the supermarkets for veg/fruit etc because picking was largely done by migrants - short or long stay - legal or illegal - and the local Brits prefer to stay on benefits rather than get up at dawn and work. What is a "proper job"?

Welfare cuts will always produce instances at the cliff edge which are difficult and possibly tragic. Yes, I agree that anybody able to work but who chooses not to, should have their benefits cut to the barest minimum. Equally anybody who cannot work because of disability or vulnerability, should be protected and given enough for their needs.

Agreed on MPs. Finding out how much it costs to have so many MP and Lords is actually difficult.

Absent landlords are taxed in the UK. If they engage an agent then the agent is obliged to deduct 30% from every rent and pay it to HMRC. The landlord can than make an application to reclaim that tax if eligible. If there is no agent and rents are being paid directly, then if HMRC find out they will seize the property and sell it to pay the tax.

There is a difference between doing business "in" the UK and "with" the UK. Those trading "in" the UK have a UK source of income and are taxed. Those trading "with" the UK are not in business here and cannot be taxed. This latter group probably includes Amazon (although they have an agreement to pay tax here and last year paid £932m.

One of the problems with this issue is that all of us - tax professionals or otherwise - allow objectivity to be subsumed by emotion and in particular the "feeling" that other people have better or more favourable treatment. In my experience in this space, that is rarely true.

Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread