| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:52 - May 23 with 3842 views | Paddyhoops |
Pretty much bang on with those the marks.
I have to say I was incredibly frustrated with Colback early doors but I thought he came into his own at the latter part of the season.
He clearly bought into the Marti philosophy which he clearly didn’t under Gareth .
He was immense against Leeds second only to Sam’s performance against West Brom. |  | |  |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:58 - May 23 with 3831 views | Northernr |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:52 - May 23 by Paddyhoops |
Pretty much bang on with those the marks.
I have to say I was incredibly frustrated with Colback early doors but I thought he came into his own at the latter part of the season.
He clearly bought into the Marti philosophy which he clearly didn’t under Gareth .
He was immense against Leeds second only to Sam’s performance against West Brom. |
Yeh, and while some of the bookings are ridiculous, we have said for years we're too nice and lack street smarts. |  | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 14:00 - May 23 with 3814 views | YorkRanger |
Very good write up, particularly on Adomah which fairly balanced practical and sentiment |  | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 15:42 - May 23 with 3607 views | NW11R |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:58 - May 23 by Northernr |
Yeh, and while some of the bookings are ridiculous, we have said for years we're too nice and lack street smarts. |
Absolutely right to mention his street smarts - something we have been hopelessly bereft of for years.
One thing that sticks in my mind about Colback is the amount of times he won smart (cheap) free kicks for us in our own half when we under pressure that allowed us to reset, get up the pitch etc. Definitely made a huge difference and is the kind of nous we have lacked in recent years | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 17:15 - May 23 with 3407 views | simmo |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 14:00 - May 23 by YorkRanger |
Very good write up, particularly on Adomah which fairly balanced practical and sentiment |
Agreed, the Adomah part was exactly the right mix, and the point about managers understanding players and that being appreciated is a really valid one. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 18:38 - May 23 with 3237 views | eastside_r |
I love, love, love all of this because it really is quite lovely.
This dual approach of the podcast to supplement the write-ups really works. I recommend listening first and reading later, which is what I did. (It also means I have a fair idea of the jokes which will go into the forthcoming Forwards review.)
This is what I want from a broadcast, just like a few mates sitting round the table in the pub taking the piss but also being inciteful, informative and entertaining (with added man-love thrown in!)
And as usual I agree with Clive on nearly all of this but an E for Albert perhaps a bit harsh. |  | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 21:08 - May 23 with 2972 views | derbyhoop |
I suspect Clive won't be on Andre Dozzell's Christmas card list. Nor vice versa.
But the summary about ditching players who aren't going to make it at our level is spot on. We might make some errors. But no more than on the recruitment side. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 07:25 - May 24 with 2531 views | thehat |
Love this Clive - Fantastic read and pretty much spot on with my thoughts. A few brilliant "Clive Classics" in there too which brought a nice smile my favorite being:
"Jack Colback gets booked A LOT. There are more cards here than at Lucas Andersen’s gaff on Valentine’s Day."
I think it's fair to say Ipswich Town and Jason Dozzell pulled Les's pants down with Andre Dozzell. A very expensive mistake to add to the others. | | | |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 09:27 - May 24 with 2374 views | Antti_Heinola |
Really enjoyed the pod thanks Clive. Might help to establish exactly what each mark represents. We had a bad first third, an ok second third and a very good third third, but Simmo seemed to give almost everyone a D. Very harsh stuff from him I felt, although agreed with all his analysis! |  |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 09:28 - May 24 with 2372 views | Northernr |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 09:27 - May 24 by Antti_Heinola |
Really enjoyed the pod thanks Clive. Might help to establish exactly what each mark represents. We had a bad first third, an ok second third and a very good third third, but Simmo seemed to give almost everyone a D. Very harsh stuff from him I felt, although agreed with all his analysis! |
You wanna try sitting with him.  | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 10:17 - May 24 with 2249 views | Jeff |
This was the framwork that I (Andy) worked towards:
is it possible to have A's and B's in a team that just managed to steer clear of relegation? IMO, yes, because im ranking them how they performed relative to expectations and the others in the team - not against the division as a whole - Victor Johansson would get an A every year for Rotherham, and he's conceded 90 goals this year
basic gradings:
A - exceptional performance, way above expectation
B - above average performance - one of the best players in the team
C - a 'par' performance - what you'd expect, steady - sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit
D - below average performance. possibly injured for parts, frequently underwhelming when does play
E - Not very good at all. Our expectations for you were low, but holy f*ck.
F - Taylor Richards
i admit i really struggled with the central midfield Trio of Field, Colback and Hayden - couldn't justify giving Hayden a C based on only completing 90 minutes once, but thought he was better than Colback generally, who really annoyed me in the first half of the season with the bookings, so i ended up with Field B/C Hayden C and Colback D which is super harsh in retrospect. |  |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 10:18 - May 24 with 2245 views | Northernr |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 10:17 - May 24 by Jeff |
This was the framwork that I (Andy) worked towards:
is it possible to have A's and B's in a team that just managed to steer clear of relegation? IMO, yes, because im ranking them how they performed relative to expectations and the others in the team - not against the division as a whole - Victor Johansson would get an A every year for Rotherham, and he's conceded 90 goals this year
basic gradings:
A - exceptional performance, way above expectation
B - above average performance - one of the best players in the team
C - a 'par' performance - what you'd expect, steady - sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit
D - below average performance. possibly injured for parts, frequently underwhelming when does play
E - Not very good at all. Our expectations for you were low, but holy f*ck.
F - Taylor Richards
i admit i really struggled with the central midfield Trio of Field, Colback and Hayden - couldn't justify giving Hayden a C based on only completing 90 minutes once, but thought he was better than Colback generally, who really annoyed me in the first half of the season with the bookings, so i ended up with Field B/C Hayden C and Colback D which is super harsh in retrospect. |
The more I wrote about Colback the higher the mark went, primarily because while some of the bookings are stupid a lot of them are exactly the sort of game smart fouls I'd been calling for from us for years when I kept going on about how nice we are. | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 10:36 - May 24 with 2214 views | dm97 |
Agree with most of the ratings, would have Armstrong lower (learning how to trap a ball made me giggle) and Field/Chair higher than most on the pod personally. Think the constant reminder of recency bias (think that was Simmo in first pod) is a good point, and MOTMs under GA should probably be made redundant as you alluded to Clive. [Post edited 24 May 10:36]
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 11:20 - May 24 with 2169 views | londonscottish |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 10:17 - May 24 by Jeff |
This was the framwork that I (Andy) worked towards:
is it possible to have A's and B's in a team that just managed to steer clear of relegation? IMO, yes, because im ranking them how they performed relative to expectations and the others in the team - not against the division as a whole - Victor Johansson would get an A every year for Rotherham, and he's conceded 90 goals this year
basic gradings:
A - exceptional performance, way above expectation
B - above average performance - one of the best players in the team
C - a 'par' performance - what you'd expect, steady - sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit
D - below average performance. possibly injured for parts, frequently underwhelming when does play
E - Not very good at all. Our expectations for you were low, but holy f*ck.
F - Taylor Richards
i admit i really struggled with the central midfield Trio of Field, Colback and Hayden - couldn't justify giving Hayden a C based on only completing 90 minutes once, but thought he was better than Colback generally, who really annoyed me in the first half of the season with the bookings, so i ended up with Field B/C Hayden C and Colback D which is super harsh in retrospect. |
I preferred "F is for FK4K Off" :-) |  |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 11:43 - May 24 with 2132 views | Stainrod |
An interesting theme running through these end of term reports is the question: did Marti make pragmatic decisions because he was desperate or because he is actually pragmatic? On no particular evidence I tilt towards the latter. Finding one winning formula is hard, finding a second on our budgets would be a tall order. Winning managers typically hate changing what has brought them success. One of the main reasons for our improvement, I think, is that we toughened up in midfield, remaining narrow. Another was our greater height and physicality at set plays, so why would you drop Dunne (except perhaps if we are facing a top class winger)?
Contradicting myself massively now, I did find myself nodding to the Dixon-Bonner section. I would also like to see him given more game time. I had not realised he is 24 with just 12 senior games. So the close season is a real fork in the road for him. As with Armstrong, a season of guaranteed starts in League One might be the ideal solution but both are too useful as squad players without quite being in the starting 11. A genuine dilemma for all parties. | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:51 - May 24 with 1936 views | ParkRoyalR |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 11:43 - May 24 by Stainrod |
An interesting theme running through these end of term reports is the question: did Marti make pragmatic decisions because he was desperate or because he is actually pragmatic? On no particular evidence I tilt towards the latter. Finding one winning formula is hard, finding a second on our budgets would be a tall order. Winning managers typically hate changing what has brought them success. One of the main reasons for our improvement, I think, is that we toughened up in midfield, remaining narrow. Another was our greater height and physicality at set plays, so why would you drop Dunne (except perhaps if we are facing a top class winger)?
Contradicting myself massively now, I did find myself nodding to the Dixon-Bonner section. I would also like to see him given more game time. I had not realised he is 24 with just 12 senior games. So the close season is a real fork in the road for him. As with Armstrong, a season of guaranteed starts in League One might be the ideal solution but both are too useful as squad players without quite being in the starting 11. A genuine dilemma for all parties. |
Interesting point you make about Marti being a purist or a pragmatist,
I get its hard to call (and tin-hat on) but did circumstances & more importantly luck also play a part,
Easy to go back to Stoke away as possibly last wrong call & low point, but did injuries to Cannon & Frey force Marti's hand into a settled starting XI and also importantly more consistent use of substitutes, which had previously been questionable,
Lots Marti got right but no doubt transfer window signings helped him massively as did good foresight or good fortune in bringing Dunne back into starting XI and having a settled best XI for run-in. | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:59 - May 24 with 1923 views | daveB |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:51 - May 24 by ParkRoyalR |
Interesting point you make about Marti being a purist or a pragmatist,
I get its hard to call (and tin-hat on) but did circumstances & more importantly luck also play a part,
Easy to go back to Stoke away as possibly last wrong call & low point, but did injuries to Cannon & Frey force Marti's hand into a settled starting XI and also importantly more consistent use of substitutes, which had previously been questionable,
Lots Marti got right but no doubt transfer window signings helped him massively as did good foresight or good fortune in bringing Dunne back into starting XI and having a settled best XI for run-in. |
We only got to the run in with a chance due to the results he got in Jan/Feb around that Stoke game when he was rotating the squad |  | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 14:20 - May 24 with 1885 views | Antti_Heinola |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 13:51 - May 24 by ParkRoyalR |
Interesting point you make about Marti being a purist or a pragmatist,
I get its hard to call (and tin-hat on) but did circumstances & more importantly luck also play a part,
Easy to go back to Stoke away as possibly last wrong call & low point, but did injuries to Cannon & Frey force Marti's hand into a settled starting XI and also importantly more consistent use of substitutes, which had previously been questionable,
Lots Marti got right but no doubt transfer window signings helped him massively as did good foresight or good fortune in bringing Dunne back into starting XI and having a settled best XI for run-in. |
All teams have luck, but f me, if Marti's absolute transformation of that team is down to 'fortune', if I were him I'd be spending a lot more time playing slots in vegas. 'He was a bit fortunate having less players to choose from' is certainly a new one!
Other posts and comments about having big (as in tall) players in and that making a difference are also fine, but it's so reductive to say 'oh in desperation he put Dunne to RB and luckily it worked'. We had lots of big players in under Ainsworth and still conceded from every set piece. It completely ignores the incredibly hard work that went in to that training ground every week so that the players understood their roles: something that was totally lacking under Ainsworth.
The turnaround was far less to do with team selection and far more to do with patterns of play, mentality, and players knowing their jobs. That is coaching. | |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 14:46 - May 24 with 1825 views | simmo |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 09:27 - May 24 by Antti_Heinola |
Really enjoyed the pod thanks Clive. Might help to establish exactly what each mark represents. We had a bad first third, an ok second third and a very good third third, but Simmo seemed to give almost everyone a D. Very harsh stuff from him I felt, although agreed with all his analysis! |
With so much nuance it's hard to settle fairly on a single mark, but I also wanted to avoid fence sitting by giving too many C/D D/E type scores. Most people did get a D or below, but then, it's not been a very good season... The last third we were a solid team making the most of limited opportunities and in the end did enough - but we were in a relegation fight all year, had multiple weekends where results went for us, and the first part of this season was the worst football I've ever seen - to hand out A's and B's in that context felt a little generous...
That said, it's hard to argue that there were pretty good and consistent performers amongst the wreckage. Once you go through with the scores, you also have to start comparing marks and making adjustments accordingly. I thought Paal was decent - slightly more consistent that Dunne, who struggled for a lot of the season, but not quite as good as Field, who was playing to his strengths under Ainsworth and adapted by the end for Marti. So Field B, Paal B/C, Dunne C, etc.
A - Cook
B - JCS, Chair, Field, Andersen
B/C - Colback, Paal
C - Dunne, Hayden, Willock
C/D - Smyth
D - Cannon, Elijah D-B, Dykes, Armstrong, Hodge, Kolli
D/E - Larkeche, Fox
E - Adomah, Kakay, Begovic, Frey
F - Dozzell
U - Richards
We were 2 games from relegation, and I'd be interested to hear if anyone would have pushed back about low scores if that had played out... | |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 15:21 - May 24 with 1747 views | simmo |
I've said this a few times already, but I think as a club and fanbase we have to start raising our standards. I know in the context of the first half of the season that the ending was brilliant, but we've been so mired in this losing/survival/ grateful to be invited mentality that we start to celebrate mediocrity.
I'm not saying we shouldn't actively support the team if they're underperforming, but I think it's right to expect better and hold players to account. There's a lot to be optimistic about now but in the grand scheme of things this season was a failure - snatching survival shouldn't excuse that. | |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 16:07 - May 24 with 1670 views | Antti_Heinola |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 15:21 - May 24 by simmo |
I've said this a few times already, but I think as a club and fanbase we have to start raising our standards. I know in the context of the first half of the season that the ending was brilliant, but we've been so mired in this losing/survival/ grateful to be invited mentality that we start to celebrate mediocrity.
I'm not saying we shouldn't actively support the team if they're underperforming, but I think it's right to expect better and hold players to account. There's a lot to be optimistic about now but in the grand scheme of things this season was a failure - snatching survival shouldn't excuse that. |
Agree, but disagree.
As a fanbase, I think we're individually allowed to set our standards wherever we like. Some have ridiculous expectations, others er, under... expect.
I honestly don't blame the players for the beginning of the season, nor do i think there was any lack of effort. Others will disagree, but to me it was obvious they had no direction, there was no real plan. I find it hard to blame (most of) them for that.
But to pull themselves out of that hole was remarkable. We looked dead in October. October. *October*. From that point to essentially be a mid-table team, curving towards a team trending towards top 6, is remarkable. It's a bit unfair to dismiss that as a 'failure' and also unfair to say 'had we gone down...' well, we didn't, and neither did we deserve to. Weekends where results went our way means very little. Many weekends no results went our way. It took us months to get out of the bottom three partly for that reason. But once we were out, we never went back.
Having said all that, I agree with pretty much all your ratings there. Is that Clive's from the report, or yours? I felt like you gave almost everyone a D or an E ;) | |
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| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 16:28 - May 24 with 1608 views | Northernr |
I've got all the guys ratings so once I've finished and posted part four I'll put a full list of whatever everybody said initially (there were a few mind changes during the recording as you heard) so we can be clear.
Jack's of course came on a massive Excel document with all their facts and figures alongside, which is why I'm in love with him. | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 17:19 - May 24 with 1513 views | terryb |
Possibly I should wait until the report on the forwards is issued, but as they were included in the Podcast I would like to ask a question about Sinclair Armstrong.
I know that I probably have the lowest opinion of his abilities on this message board, but why is he given so much space due to his age?
Not that I should really be comparing him to the players I'm about to mention, but how many goals had the following scored by the time they reached 20? Roger Morgan, Paul Goddard, Clive Allen, Bradley Allen, Kevin Gallen, Danny Dichio for us & many, many others for different clubs.
If you can't score goals by that age, what is the likelihood that you will ever become more than a five goal a season person? Geoff Hurst is the only player I can recall that went from zero to hero after that age. | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 17:31 - May 24 with 1494 views | Northernr |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 17:19 - May 24 by terryb |
Possibly I should wait until the report on the forwards is issued, but as they were included in the Podcast I would like to ask a question about Sinclair Armstrong.
I know that I probably have the lowest opinion of his abilities on this message board, but why is he given so much space due to his age?
Not that I should really be comparing him to the players I'm about to mention, but how many goals had the following scored by the time they reached 20? Roger Morgan, Paul Goddard, Clive Allen, Bradley Allen, Kevin Gallen, Danny Dichio for us & many, many others for different clubs.
If you can't score goals by that age, what is the likelihood that you will ever become more than a five goal a season person? Geoff Hurst is the only player I can recall that went from zero to hero after that age. |
I think it's a bit harsh to be bringing up names like that to compare him to, but to play the same game myself Ian Wright was playing for Greenwich Borough until he was 22. | | | |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 17:49 - May 24 with 1460 views | terryb |
| End of Term Report 23/24 – Midfield (plus part two of the Patreon pod) on 17:31 - May 24 by Northernr |
I think it's a bit harsh to be bringing up names like that to compare him to, but to play the same game myself Ian Wright was playing for Greenwich Borough until he was 22. |
Is it harsh Clive? I'm not comparing him ability wise with those players, just his age & whether he will ever be able to score goals. IMO he will never be more than five goals a season & unlikely to reach the scoring heights of Andy McCulloch or Stewart Wardley!
Ian Wright was also scoring lots of goals while playing for Greenwich Borough, as was Les Ferdinand at Southall. Sinclair wasn't too productive while on loan at Torquay, although his record was better than I had realised & he was playing at a higher level!
Recently, I've heard you mention the possibility of Armstrong playing the "Traore" role of playing wide & going past defenders with pace. This is something I've mentioned to others during the season & I would like to see if he could adapt to that role. [Post edited 25 May 9:28]
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