| Religion and the far right 14:47 - Jul 28 with 11291 views | saint901 |
Our news threads are filled with the usual summer madness in the UK of young, lagered up men being told a lie, choosing to believe it and subsequently throwing insults and eventually bricks and worse at anybody who doesn't look like them.
The far right is becoming more mainstream and we se them weaponising fear and making claims that our country (of 70 million) is being "invaded" by a few thousand people arriving here illegally. (If a poor person arrives this way, he/she is illegal. If a rich person arrives and takes years to "clarify" their status, he/she is an "investor". )
More recently I've seen more posts linking being a "christian" to being a "patriot" and that "christians" have a duty - almost a religious duty - to be passing the bricks to those stupid enough to believe the sort of racist and xenophobic nonsense being spouted.
I am not a religious person. I have no issues with those who chose to believe, but I don't. I do however see this linking of the christian culture with what might loosely be called a doctrine in which Caucasian people are seen as in some manner superior to other races or entitled to something just because of accident of birth, as troubling.
I get that this is straight out of the right wing playbook, i.e. create a sense of jeopardy in certain groups to bring them alongside, but from what I understand of christian philosophy, its about tolerance, love they neighbour, turn the other cheek, be a good Samaritan. It's not about hate other people who have less than we do or choose a different set of rules to live by.
(For what it's worth my understanding of other religions is that they have similar ideas but we know that some will chose to interpret the rules in very different ways). |  | | |  |
| Religion and the far right on 18:32 - Aug 7 with 1445 views | Jellybaby |
| Religion and the far right on 18:45 - Aug 6 by Butty101 |
Yeah that matches my experience in the Southampton General. Nothing wrong with bringing skilled people in who want to be part of the community.
As far for religion, i would question anyone’s mental health that believes in one of The imaginary gods out there. |
But Butty, do you believe in the imaginary big bang theory, that was first mooted less than 100 years ago? If the answer is yes, I won't question your mental health, as that would be, er crazy, but I would suggest you've been sold a pup! | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Religion and the far right on 18:33 - Aug 7 with 1445 views | Jellybaby |
| Religion and the far right on 17:35 - Aug 7 by GasGiant |
I see. So when I checked your data (which you obviously didn't) I see that NHS staff totals rose by 38,000 in the year to March 2025, whereas immigration to the Uk stood at 690,000. So where, pray are the other 652,000 going to work, or are they just there to become the NHS customers that actually require an additional 38,000 staff to service, in some nightmare version of Stalinist job creation? Perhaps we need 652,000 additional Deliveroo drivers, unless you can think of something else for them to do? |
Gas giant, you're on fire big time! | |
| I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it. |
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| Religion and the far right on 15:50 - Aug 8 with 1305 views | kentsouthampton |
| Religion and the far right on 17:35 - Aug 7 by GasGiant |
I see. So when I checked your data (which you obviously didn't) I see that NHS staff totals rose by 38,000 in the year to March 2025, whereas immigration to the Uk stood at 690,000. So where, pray are the other 652,000 going to work, or are they just there to become the NHS customers that actually require an additional 38,000 staff to service, in some nightmare version of Stalinist job creation? Perhaps we need 652,000 additional Deliveroo drivers, unless you can think of something else for them to do? |
Totally missing the point, which is without immigration and migrants the health service would collapse, I made no other point, You've clearly never had the misfortune to spend much time in hospital.
The truth of the matter is we could end immigration tomorrow as long as you and others like you are happy work to longer and to retire later (state pension) and pay more tax and accept poorer public services. because heaven forbid we tax the wealthy any more than we currently do, they might starve. |  | | |
| Religion and the far right on 17:38 - Aug 8 with 1263 views | kingolaf |
| Religion and the far right on 15:50 - Aug 8 by kentsouthampton |
Totally missing the point, which is without immigration and migrants the health service would collapse, I made no other point, You've clearly never had the misfortune to spend much time in hospital.
The truth of the matter is we could end immigration tomorrow as long as you and others like you are happy work to longer and to retire later (state pension) and pay more tax and accept poorer public services. because heaven forbid we tax the wealthy any more than we currently do, they might starve. |
I don’t think anyone is saying no immigrants.
Just not the ones who come here illegally.
We have totally lost control of our borders and are putting our own people at risk.
We need a policy of controlled immigration. We also need to skill up our workforce to plug skill shortages. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 18:56 - Aug 8 with 1246 views | GasGiant |
| Religion and the far right on 15:50 - Aug 8 by kentsouthampton |
Totally missing the point, which is without immigration and migrants the health service would collapse, I made no other point, You've clearly never had the misfortune to spend much time in hospital.
The truth of the matter is we could end immigration tomorrow as long as you and others like you are happy work to longer and to retire later (state pension) and pay more tax and accept poorer public services. because heaven forbid we tax the wealthy any more than we currently do, they might starve. |
It can't be that clear if you are that wrong can it. As others have said, I pointed out that a figure of nearly 700, 000 is unsustainable. If we had net immigration of around 100,000 based on a previously offered position whether in education, health, IT or wherever (as Australia does) then we would have a stable and prosperous growing economy, not a huge offshore refugee camp with no jobs, no income, no tax contribution..... . Labour could remediate this by removing the right for dependents to immigrate on the back of a sole job offer, by repatriating failed asylum seekers, by tightening up loopholes such as bogus colleges offering bogus courses, properly scrutinising bogus tourist visas......... THey could improve the fiscal situation if they removed the triple lock on pensions. If they stopped caving in and abandoning policies that work, such as the recent WEfare Bill, now a watered down waste of time. The Winter Fuel Allowance Fiasco....
And your Corbynist notion of "taxing the rich" is puerile rubbish. The top 10% taxpayers pay 60% of the income tax revenue already,not to mention many other taxes, and they are leaving the UK in droves. So who is going to pay that shortfall instead? Yes the not so rich, so great solution - You;ve just plled more tax on the average wage earners by trying to strangle another group who already pay far more than the lower earners anyway. If there's any greed around it comes from those who think they can avoid paying any share of the defecit by just trying to dump the entire liability onto another group. Austerity should not be a dirty word. It's a bloody necessity already. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 23:24 - Aug 8 with 1187 views | kentsouthampton |
| Religion and the far right on 18:56 - Aug 8 by GasGiant |
It can't be that clear if you are that wrong can it. As others have said, I pointed out that a figure of nearly 700, 000 is unsustainable. If we had net immigration of around 100,000 based on a previously offered position whether in education, health, IT or wherever (as Australia does) then we would have a stable and prosperous growing economy, not a huge offshore refugee camp with no jobs, no income, no tax contribution..... . Labour could remediate this by removing the right for dependents to immigrate on the back of a sole job offer, by repatriating failed asylum seekers, by tightening up loopholes such as bogus colleges offering bogus courses, properly scrutinising bogus tourist visas......... THey could improve the fiscal situation if they removed the triple lock on pensions. If they stopped caving in and abandoning policies that work, such as the recent WEfare Bill, now a watered down waste of time. The Winter Fuel Allowance Fiasco....
And your Corbynist notion of "taxing the rich" is puerile rubbish. The top 10% taxpayers pay 60% of the income tax revenue already,not to mention many other taxes, and they are leaving the UK in droves. So who is going to pay that shortfall instead? Yes the not so rich, so great solution - You;ve just plled more tax on the average wage earners by trying to strangle another group who already pay far more than the lower earners anyway. If there's any greed around it comes from those who think they can avoid paying any share of the defecit by just trying to dump the entire liability onto another group. Austerity should not be a dirty word. It's a bloody necessity already. |
Wibble. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 23:43 - Aug 8 with 1179 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Religion and the far right on 15:50 - Aug 8 by kentsouthampton |
Totally missing the point, which is without immigration and migrants the health service would collapse, I made no other point, You've clearly never had the misfortune to spend much time in hospital.
The truth of the matter is we could end immigration tomorrow as long as you and others like you are happy work to longer and to retire later (state pension) and pay more tax and accept poorer public services. because heaven forbid we tax the wealthy any more than we currently do, they might starve. |
How will this “tax the wealthy” work in practice then? |  |
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| Religion and the far right on 23:54 - Aug 8 with 1169 views | 1885_SFC |
| Religion and the far right on 23:43 - Aug 8 by Chesham_Saint |
How will this “tax the wealthy” work in practice then? |
We tax the wealthy... which won't raise enough so then we tax the already struggling ordinary man in the street who's just trying to keep his head above water... and then we give it all to the gimigrants.
Politics according to kentsouthampton. |  |
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| Religion and the far right on 06:11 - Aug 9 with 1126 views | kingolaf |
| Religion and the far right on 23:54 - Aug 8 by 1885_SFC |
We tax the wealthy... which won't raise enough so then we tax the already struggling ordinary man in the street who's just trying to keep his head above water... and then we give it all to the gimigrants.
Politics according to kentsouthampton. |
You don’t grow an economy by increasing the tax burden.
A wealth tax would just destroy wealth in the UK. We all pay enough tax as it is. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 08:06 - Aug 9 with 1093 views | SalisburySaint |
| Religion and the far right on 06:11 - Aug 9 by kingolaf |
You don’t grow an economy by increasing the tax burden.
A wealth tax would just destroy wealth in the UK. We all pay enough tax as it is. |
Most of us do pay enough tax, but not the super rich who through tax loopholes, off shore accounts etc avoid playing their fair share.
If they paid in line with the rest of us, we wouldn’t be in half the trouble we are in.
And the argument that wealth trickles down the rest of us is a fallacy, the majority just hoard it away for themselves. Only the likes of Bill Gates in the US have a social conscience. |  | | |
| Religion and the far right on 09:14 - Aug 9 with 1063 views | kentsouthampton |
| Religion and the far right on 06:11 - Aug 9 by kingolaf |
You don’t grow an economy by increasing the tax burden.
A wealth tax would just destroy wealth in the UK. We all pay enough tax as it is. |
The nation’s getting older meaning more people are expecting a state pension whilst at the same time the birth rate is declining meaning less people to work and pay the taxes for that pension. One of the answers is immigration - getting people in to work and pay those taxes we’re short of for pensions (amongst other things taxes pay for). No immigration probably means retirement age goes up, state pension eligibility age goes up and you have to work for longer before you get your pension. Which I’d imagine would suit the far right parties. Work until you die and get nothing for it | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 09:33 - Aug 9 with 1039 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Religion and the far right on 08:06 - Aug 9 by SalisburySaint |
Most of us do pay enough tax, but not the super rich who through tax loopholes, off shore accounts etc avoid playing their fair share.
If they paid in line with the rest of us, we wouldn’t be in half the trouble we are in.
And the argument that wealth trickles down the rest of us is a fallacy, the majority just hoard it away for themselves. Only the likes of Bill Gates in the US have a social conscience. |
Can you define “super rich” please | |
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| Religion and the far right on 09:37 - Aug 9 with 1031 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Religion and the far right on 09:33 - Aug 9 by Chesham_Saint |
Can you define “super rich” please |
Also the idea that only Bill Gates does anything philanthropic is incorrect in my experience. | |
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| Religion and the far right on 09:57 - Aug 9 with 1014 views | mushinexile |
| Religion and the far right on 09:37 - Aug 9 by Chesham_Saint |
Also the idea that only Bill Gates does anything philanthropic is incorrect in my experience. |
Quite so. Dolly Parton is an example, having bought many books to improve literacy across the board. I forget how many millions but I understand that it is a considerable sum. | |
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| Religion and the far right on 09:26 - Aug 11 with 890 views | saint901 |
Some of the points above regarding tax I can answer as that is where I've worked for the last 40+ years.
If we see tax as part of a societal structure, then it has to have a purpose or rationale beyond simple robbery of citizens by Gov't. For the last 100 years or so, the principle behind taxation of income (personal or corporate) is that it should be progressive. In other words, the more you earn, the more you pay. The "burden" therefore falls more upon the wealthy than the poor.
That supposes of course that you can tell when an individual is "poor2 or "wealthy". There is no brightline threshold for that. The tax system therefore makes arbitrary limits to how income is taxed. So we have an amount taxed at 0% (the personal allowance); a further tranche at 20%, then 40% then 45%. (I'm ignoring NIC for now).
Those limits have been frozen for a few years and will remains frozen for a few more. That has the effect of bringing more people into the 40/45% range.
The effective rate of tax for somebody earning £25k is 9.9% (that is they pay 9.9% of that income to the Gov't). At £35k, it's 12.8%. At £75k it's 23.2%. At £150k it's around 34%.
Tax "loopholes" do not exist and all and any attempts to avoid tax are these days met with fierce opposition. To claim that the "rich" use loopholes to avoid tax is a myth.
The moderately or super wealthy can usually arrange matters such that their UK source income is managed to be whatever value they wish. That is a function of their wealth/value and not the tax system. The only place on the globe which seeks to tax ALL a person's income, regardless of where it comes from, is California. All other countries are limited to taxing income from that country. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 09:50 - Aug 11 with 871 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Religion and the far right on 09:26 - Aug 11 by saint901 |
Some of the points above regarding tax I can answer as that is where I've worked for the last 40+ years.
If we see tax as part of a societal structure, then it has to have a purpose or rationale beyond simple robbery of citizens by Gov't. For the last 100 years or so, the principle behind taxation of income (personal or corporate) is that it should be progressive. In other words, the more you earn, the more you pay. The "burden" therefore falls more upon the wealthy than the poor.
That supposes of course that you can tell when an individual is "poor2 or "wealthy". There is no brightline threshold for that. The tax system therefore makes arbitrary limits to how income is taxed. So we have an amount taxed at 0% (the personal allowance); a further tranche at 20%, then 40% then 45%. (I'm ignoring NIC for now).
Those limits have been frozen for a few years and will remains frozen for a few more. That has the effect of bringing more people into the 40/45% range.
The effective rate of tax for somebody earning £25k is 9.9% (that is they pay 9.9% of that income to the Gov't). At £35k, it's 12.8%. At £75k it's 23.2%. At £150k it's around 34%.
Tax "loopholes" do not exist and all and any attempts to avoid tax are these days met with fierce opposition. To claim that the "rich" use loopholes to avoid tax is a myth.
The moderately or super wealthy can usually arrange matters such that their UK source income is managed to be whatever value they wish. That is a function of their wealth/value and not the tax system. The only place on the globe which seeks to tax ALL a person's income, regardless of where it comes from, is California. All other countries are limited to taxing income from that country. |
Thanks 901, an interesting read. I'd still like someone to define "rich" though... | |
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| Religion and the far right on 10:22 - Aug 11 with 853 views | saint901 |
| Religion and the far right on 09:50 - Aug 11 by Chesham_Saint |
Thanks 901, an interesting read. I'd still like someone to define "rich" though... |
Good luck with that definition!
It's been observed that if your income exceeds your outgoings by a ha'penny, then you are rich.
I've also had clients who had more than a million pounds in available cash and substantial assets, complain that they are struggling.
I think experience has shown me that "rich" means something more than money and assets. It's more of a personal attitude. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 11:25 - Aug 11 with 833 views | franniesTache |
| Religion and the far right on 17:29 - Aug 7 by GasGiant |
Using your model means immigration has to continue (albeit at its ludicrously inefficient rate of less than 10% of the numbers actually filling the posts you claim to be necessary) indefimitely, since - according to your model - every year the population will be even higher , requiring even more nursing staff Ad Nauseam. So I'll ask you again, when, and how do you propose to break out of this ridiculous unsustainable model, or will it continue until the entire country is as teeming as downtown Hong Kong, and even then still needs immigration to feed itself? Any date plus or minus ten years along with a method will do. |
I'm not sure where you've got your numbers from? But the current population increase in the UK stands at 7.3% and we're due to reach the projected peak of population growth in the UK in 2032.
If you look at the ONS stats and projections it looks like - due to the lower fertility rate of 1.41 and the fact the death rate will outstrip the birth rate by 2029 - that we start to enter a population decline irregardless of immigration being at the current level or not.
This isn't just us by the way, the entire EU is predicted to decline in population by around 1.2m people in that time frame.
Also the ONS projections look like somewhere in the region of 5-9.9m people will emigrate in the same period. |  | | |
| Religion and the far right on 13:57 - Aug 11 with 812 views | saint901 |
Part of the issue here is that people are lazy and if they are told often enough and loudly enough that something is a "fact", then they believe it.
FACT. Less than 1% of net immigration (and less than half that of immigrants coming to the UK) arrive here by illegal means. Some politicians would have you believe that we're about to be "overrun" by such people.
FACT: Over 90% of sexual offences in the UK are committed by family members on other family members. Some politicians would have you believe that EVERY immigrant arriving here informally (they're not illegal until their application to stay has been turned down) is just itching to get onto our streets and commit offences.
There is one interesting set of numbers coming out of the USA. It was predicted that the crackdown on "illegal" immigrants who predominantly work low paid agricultural jobs, would lead to a shortage of produce and other problems. In fact it seems that many "legal" US citizens have picked up those jobs. Good news. Bad news - they need to be paid more and prices are still rising. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 15:17 - Aug 11 with 782 views | kentsouthampton |
Just read an amazing account of a medieval battle where the locals rose up against the Duke that ruled over them, they killed his son by knocking him off the battlements with a trebuchet. Due to a lack of rocks they had to use the head of one of their fallen. It was the first ever serf face to heir missile. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 15:48 - Aug 11 with 744 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Religion and the far right on 15:17 - Aug 11 by kentsouthampton |
Just read an amazing account of a medieval battle where the locals rose up against the Duke that ruled over them, they killed his son by knocking him off the battlements with a trebuchet. Due to a lack of rocks they had to use the head of one of their fallen. It was the first ever serf face to heir missile. |
I'm afraid (given your apparent leanings ) that was a little bit LABOURed,,,  | |
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| Religion and the far right on 16:10 - Aug 11 with 732 views | saint901 |
Bit of a throwaway line there? | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 01:07 - Aug 12 with 594 views | 1885_SFC |
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