| Survey results as reported in the Times 13:28 - Aug 6 with 9288 views | saint901 |
Apparently some 4% of immigrants are here "illegally" or have arrived by informal means (a boat across the channel).
Apparently some 47% of voters think that illegal immigrants outnumber those encouraged to come here to contribute to our society and coffers.
Apparently this rises to over 70% amongst those voters who would support Reform or have sympathies with organisations designated as being on the far right.
A worrying demonstration of the power of those with a voice to distort and corrupt.
The selective messages being delivered by all politicians in which facts are ignored or abused or quoted out of context is leading to a situation in which it's becoming not a question of what to believe but rather a choice to disbelieve everything we are told.
If we then have a situation in which there are no hard facts to rely upon, the ground is ripe for any old nonsense to be planted and grow into today's chosen conspiracy.
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 10:29 - Sep 23 with 2809 views | saintmark1976 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 10:15 - Sep 23 by dirk_doone |
Statistics for illegal immigration are inevitably unreliable as one of the things you do when you are entering somewhere illegally is try to avoid detection.
Those in small boats that give themselves up, who are fairly assured of acceptance as asylum seekers, are the ones that get counted. Prior to crossing, however, they are told to leave all forms of ID behind and are given cover stories which will assure them of asylum. For example, 99% of applicants of Sudanese nationality are accepted here, so those from sub-Saharan Africa are instructed to say they are from Sudan. [Post edited 23 Sep 13:15]
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How many more times is it necessary to remind people that in 2024 for every one asylum seeking “boat person” thirteen immigrants entered the UK legally ?
I’m personally agnostic on the whole subject but just can’t understand why people who want to “ go after” boat people, presumably because the think all immigration is wrong, just completely fail to see the bigger picture. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 10:36 - Sep 23 with 2789 views | dirk_doone |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 10:29 - Sep 23 by saintmark1976 |
How many more times is it necessary to remind people that in 2024 for every one asylum seeking “boat person” thirteen immigrants entered the UK legally ?
I’m personally agnostic on the whole subject but just can’t understand why people who want to “ go after” boat people, presumably because the think all immigration is wrong, just completely fail to see the bigger picture. |
You still seem to be missing the point yourself that the majority of illegal immigrants go undetected and are not included in statistics. So, the numbers you quote are inevitably totally wrong.
What concerns me is that because of these false statistics, people are going after legal immigrants, who are beneficial to our country, rather than those who are not. In fact, politicians of all persuasions, from Starmer to Farage, are already talking about doing exactly that. [Post edited 23 Sep 10:43]
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 11:25 - Sep 23 with 2709 views | saintmark1976 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 10:36 - Sep 23 by dirk_doone |
You still seem to be missing the point yourself that the majority of illegal immigrants go undetected and are not included in statistics. So, the numbers you quote are inevitably totally wrong.
What concerns me is that because of these false statistics, people are going after legal immigrants, who are beneficial to our country, rather than those who are not. In fact, politicians of all persuasions, from Starmer to Farage, are already talking about doing exactly that. [Post edited 23 Sep 10:43]
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So, the statistics are wrong, I’m wrong, Starmer is wrong and Farage also.
Interesting theory if nothing else. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:25 - Sep 23 with 2671 views | Southamptonfan |
The system needs sorting. Neither the Tories or Labour have been able to. Whether people coming over on boats is technically legal or not, people should not be risking their lives to come over on a dinghy. We also have to ask, when they are safe in France, they still risk their lives to come over here, when they are safe. It shouldn't be happening. Nobody should be forcing their way intobthe country, when they are safe in France. They should not also be getting a hotel and food, if British homeless adults are starving on our streets. Should the British homeless not also get a hotel? This in itself is causing division.
And we should not be happy with completely unknowns being able to come over and stay, if we don't know who they are. The news story dated today, is one rare example but it's still not acceptable that people we dont know, come over unchecked.
https://news.sky.com/story/epping-hotel-asylum-seeker-jailed-after-sexually-assa
The lack of common sense is unbelievable. Any nurse, doctor, or anyone who has got employment before arriving and has been checked, should be absolutely welcome. In fact we need them. But people arriving, unchecked needs to be sorted. I would say the same thing about any British person travelling to another country to live. We would need to show our passports, get a visa, a background check etc and rightly so. [Post edited 23 Sep 12:30]
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 13:13 - Sep 23 with 2634 views | solent_toffee |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:25 - Sep 23 by Southamptonfan |
The system needs sorting. Neither the Tories or Labour have been able to. Whether people coming over on boats is technically legal or not, people should not be risking their lives to come over on a dinghy. We also have to ask, when they are safe in France, they still risk their lives to come over here, when they are safe. It shouldn't be happening. Nobody should be forcing their way intobthe country, when they are safe in France. They should not also be getting a hotel and food, if British homeless adults are starving on our streets. Should the British homeless not also get a hotel? This in itself is causing division.
And we should not be happy with completely unknowns being able to come over and stay, if we don't know who they are. The news story dated today, is one rare example but it's still not acceptable that people we dont know, come over unchecked.
https://news.sky.com/story/epping-hotel-asylum-seeker-jailed-after-sexually-assa
The lack of common sense is unbelievable. Any nurse, doctor, or anyone who has got employment before arriving and has been checked, should be absolutely welcome. In fact we need them. But people arriving, unchecked needs to be sorted. I would say the same thing about any British person travelling to another country to live. We would need to show our passports, get a visa, a background check etc and rightly so. [Post edited 23 Sep 12:30]
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During Covid a lot of homeless people were quite rightly brought into hotels. This was a once in a generation opportunity to help those in need receive support and be given Information, Advice and Guidance to rebuild their lives. Instead once Covid eased up, they were sent back to the streets and back to square one. Barely nobody bat eyelid. In fact here in Southampton, homeless campaigners have often been attacked online by the general public for being do gooders. I’ve no doubt that if and when the immigration problem is resolved or out of the news, people will soon get back onto slating our very own homeless and show a lack of compassion.
This isn’t a dig as you, just the constant ‘we need to look after our own’ shouts they all over social media from people who couldn’t give two phucks about the homeless or veterans that also pull on the social media conscienceness of the masses who wouldn’t give two hoots to the homeless veterans. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:06 - Sep 23 with 2573 views | Southamptonfan |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 13:13 - Sep 23 by solent_toffee |
During Covid a lot of homeless people were quite rightly brought into hotels. This was a once in a generation opportunity to help those in need receive support and be given Information, Advice and Guidance to rebuild their lives. Instead once Covid eased up, they were sent back to the streets and back to square one. Barely nobody bat eyelid. In fact here in Southampton, homeless campaigners have often been attacked online by the general public for being do gooders. I’ve no doubt that if and when the immigration problem is resolved or out of the news, people will soon get back onto slating our very own homeless and show a lack of compassion.
This isn’t a dig as you, just the constant ‘we need to look after our own’ shouts they all over social media from people who couldn’t give two phucks about the homeless or veterans that also pull on the social media conscienceness of the masses who wouldn’t give two hoots to the homeless veterans. |
It's not just the homeless. There are big problems of our own in this country. Stabbings, knife crime, gun crime, drugs, mental health, cost of living, people visiting food banks and the rest of it. Nothing is being done about it and the government say we don't have the money for it. The government said and will probably say this again in the upcoming budget, that the elderly, the ill and the disabled will lose their benefits. People will get very angry indeed, if the government take from certain vulnerable people, whilst certain people get things for free, who have never paid into the system. If Labour, the Conservatives etc don't want to see Reform come to power, then use some common sense! [Post edited 23 Sep 15:09]
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:22 - Sep 23 with 2539 views | solent_toffee |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:06 - Sep 23 by Southamptonfan |
It's not just the homeless. There are big problems of our own in this country. Stabbings, knife crime, gun crime, drugs, mental health, cost of living, people visiting food banks and the rest of it. Nothing is being done about it and the government say we don't have the money for it. The government said and will probably say this again in the upcoming budget, that the elderly, the ill and the disabled will lose their benefits. People will get very angry indeed, if the government take from certain vulnerable people, whilst certain people get things for free, who have never paid into the system. If Labour, the Conservatives etc don't want to see Reform come to power, then use some common sense! [Post edited 23 Sep 15:09]
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If the government shipped out all asylum seekers on arrival, will the money saved be reallocated to fund other services? I’m not sure, but I doubt it. Will all societies problems be solved? The ‘we want a country back’ seem to think so, but I doubt it.We have millions of people in the UK who don’t work and don’t claim benefits, but do tap into public services, NHS etc and will expect to have some sort of pension when they come to retire. Likewise we have around 1m NEET, and almost 8 million claiming some form of UC, with 1.7 million being unemployed. That’s some shocking stats and it’s hard to see how that can be blamed on asylum seekers, although I do admit that the asylum system is a shambles and has been for years.
I’m not particularly a Labour supporter but what they inherited from the Tories was an absolute mess and they’ve approached it like a rabbit in a headlight in front of a baying crowd.
Some serious cross party grown up conversations need to take place to properly get this country back, back into work, back into industries to create jobs and opportunities.
But I doubt it will happen. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:33 - Sep 23 with 2518 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:06 - Sep 23 by Southamptonfan |
It's not just the homeless. There are big problems of our own in this country. Stabbings, knife crime, gun crime, drugs, mental health, cost of living, people visiting food banks and the rest of it. Nothing is being done about it and the government say we don't have the money for it. The government said and will probably say this again in the upcoming budget, that the elderly, the ill and the disabled will lose their benefits. People will get very angry indeed, if the government take from certain vulnerable people, whilst certain people get things for free, who have never paid into the system. If Labour, the Conservatives etc don't want to see Reform come to power, then use some common sense! [Post edited 23 Sep 15:09]
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Funnily enough knife crime is falling (from a peak in 2018/19), violent crime in general is falling year on year, burglary is falling year on year and rape is falling year on year.
These things aren't really being reported weirdly, likewise the increase in fraud (white collar fraud) and computer misuse isn't really being talked about much too, despite it being the biggest growth area for criminal activity |  | | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 18:03 - Sep 23 with 2461 views | saintmark1976 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:33 - Sep 23 by franniesTache |
Funnily enough knife crime is falling (from a peak in 2018/19), violent crime in general is falling year on year, burglary is falling year on year and rape is falling year on year.
These things aren't really being reported weirdly, likewise the increase in fraud (white collar fraud) and computer misuse isn't really being talked about much too, despite it being the biggest growth area for criminal activity |
Thus it ever was frannie.
As they say in the newspaper trade. “ Never let the facts get in the way of a good story”. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 22:23 - Sep 24 with 2138 views | 1885_SFC |
Of course it's for real - and he isn't the first to do so.
Why are you surprised? |  |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 22:34 - Sep 24 with 2130 views | Southamptonfan |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 22:23 - Sep 24 by 1885_SFC |
Of course it's for real - and he isn't the first to do so.
Why are you surprised? |
I'm not particularly surprised, but why is the government allowing it? We take him in because he at risk, then nobody says a word when he jets off back to his dangerous country. They obviously don't even bother putting their names on the system and stopping them at the airport. Pathetic isn't it.
If only to avoid the surge of reform, you would think the government wouldnt just allow it. [Post edited 24 Sep 22:36]
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 22:58 - Sep 24 with 2110 views | 1885_SFC |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 22:34 - Sep 24 by Southamptonfan |
I'm not particularly surprised, but why is the government allowing it? We take him in because he at risk, then nobody says a word when he jets off back to his dangerous country. They obviously don't even bother putting their names on the system and stopping them at the airport. Pathetic isn't it.
If only to avoid the surge of reform, you would think the government wouldnt just allow it. [Post edited 24 Sep 22:36]
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He probably spun the authorities a yarn by saying he was going to Dubai for a jolly - which he did. From there, he's probably made the short journey across the narrow Gulf of Oman (I know it well) and slipped into Pakistan & then on into Afghanistan to catch up with the family with a pot of tea & mutton or goat curry for supper. It's not as if 'border' personnel are hard to bribe anywhere in that part of the world if need be. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 23:35 - Sep 24 with 2087 views | Southamptonfan |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 22:58 - Sep 24 by 1885_SFC |
He probably spun the authorities a yarn by saying he was going to Dubai for a jolly - which he did. From there, he's probably made the short journey across the narrow Gulf of Oman (I know it well) and slipped into Pakistan & then on into Afghanistan to catch up with the family with a pot of tea & mutton or goat curry for supper. It's not as if 'border' personnel are hard to bribe anywhere in that part of the world if need be. |
Interestingly, a colleague (who has British citizenship) went to Afganistan to visit family and they went to Dubai airport then Afghanistan. I thought he was crazy going there, especially taking his whole family, with the reports of what the taliban are like. They came back saying how wonderful it was there, and the Taliban were visible but were helpful, polite and courteous. We kind of know the family and the kids were full of the joys if spring saying it was wonderful there, the afghan curry was amazing and grandma was great. I find that interesting, considering the government advice is not to travel there as it's highly dangerous, with no direct flights and their people are supposed to be starving. [Post edited 24 Sep 23:38]
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 00:14 - Sep 25 with 2062 views | 1885_SFC |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 23:35 - Sep 24 by Southamptonfan |
Interestingly, a colleague (who has British citizenship) went to Afganistan to visit family and they went to Dubai airport then Afghanistan. I thought he was crazy going there, especially taking his whole family, with the reports of what the taliban are like. They came back saying how wonderful it was there, and the Taliban were visible but were helpful, polite and courteous. We kind of know the family and the kids were full of the joys if spring saying it was wonderful there, the afghan curry was amazing and grandma was great. I find that interesting, considering the government advice is not to travel there as it's highly dangerous, with no direct flights and their people are supposed to be starving. [Post edited 24 Sep 23:38]
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The likes of you & me wouldn't be able to go to Afghanistan of course. The government advise against it for obvious reasons & it would take many months or even years until you were free to return - if ever!
If you're from there however, there are daily flights from Dubai to both Afghanistan & neighbouring Pakistan. | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:12 - Sep 25 with 1840 views | saint901 |
We must surely be coming to a point where some of the issues rehearsed above are just too important or have too many potentially dangerous consequences, to be placed into the hands of politicians. Most politicians cannot look beyond the next election and here we have a number of problems that have been around for decades.
I'm not a supporter of Gov't funded "independent" bodies who are charged with looking at a problem and making recommendations. That seems to me to be an excuse to be paid a decent fee for spouting BS, knowing that you will not be accountable or responsible. (I speak from experience having done that once - seeing most of the work of that body rejected and the rest being subject to "consideration". I have declined subsequent invitations).
So a full time, paid body charged with determining the UK's policy on say, immigration. Or tax. Or benefits.
Take the matter out of the hands of people who think in 4/5 year cycles and instead come up with a 10/20 year plan. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:59 - Sep 25 with 1794 views | Ron11 |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:33 - Aug 6 by franniesTache |
The opposite actually, no one arriving is illegal until they've had an asylum application turned down. At which point they then become illegal.
The papers and the likes of Farage actually know this but it doesn't help the narrative |
Try arriving at the border of any country without a passport or visa and see if they regard you as legally in their country. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 15:58 - Sep 25 with 1699 views | saint901 |
If you're at the border seeking entry with no papers, and are denied entry, then you're not illegally "in the country"? | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:16 - Oct 7 with 371 views | solent_toffee |
I’ve worked at some of his hotels as part of a Home Office contract, offering support to residents when they have received a positive decision.
They are awful, depressing places. Tons of security guards everywhere you look, but barely interested in engaging with the residents. Food is served in an empty former dining room three times a day, if you snooze you lose as it’s first come first served. There are no cooking facilities on site so food is brought in through an outside company and served up soup kitchen style. There are zero leisure facilities despite people claiming they are 4/5 star hotels. Families often share the same room (and don’t complain as they are happy to be there and safe).
I’ve worked in many prisons that have better conditions.
Clearsprings also sub out their contracts to other providers, solely to work in this sector and to cash in on this opportunity. Their profits are also scandalous and an outrageous waste of public money. | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:18 - Oct 7 with 368 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 14:10 - Aug 6 by yateleysaint |
No human is illegal. |
Agreed, but their actions certainly can be.,, |  |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:20 - Oct 7 with 364 views | 1885_SFC |
Yes, signed-off by the last government - but he's getting even richer under this current one!
"Smash the gangs" 
"One in - one out" | |
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:39 - Oct 7 with 332 views | franniesTache |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:59 - Sep 25 by Ron11 |
Try arriving at the border of any country without a passport or visa and see if they regard you as legally in their country. |
The minute you arrive and claim asylum you're put in for processing, at that point you are not illegal, you can only become "illegal" at the point that you either over stay a visa or aren't granted one and abscond.
That is the law in the majority of countries in the world, with the exception of a handful of countries of haven't signed up to the UN Convention on the rights of refugees, which includes amongst them the illustrious nations of Russia, North Korea, Nigeria and The United States.
All major politicians know this to be true but use emotive language like illegals instead because it's more beneficial to them.
Whether you (or I) agree with this definition or not is irrelevant in the eyes of the law | | | |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:39 - Oct 7 with 332 views | dirk_doone |
Did anybody else watch the film Io Capitano on Film 4 last night? It's the best film I've seen this year and it certainly gives you a different perspective on illegal immigration. It's still available to watch:
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/io-capitano
[Post edited 7 Oct 13:03]
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| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:48 - Oct 7 with 320 views | solent_toffee |
| Survey results as reported in the Times on 12:20 - Oct 7 by 1885_SFC |
Yes, signed-off by the last government - but he's getting even richer under this current one!
"Smash the gangs"
"One in - one out" |
The One in, One out is utter nonsense and is up there with the Rwanda for a massive waste of time and money.
I don’t understand how the Smash the Gangs is proving to be so difficult apart from the clear lack of communication and coordination across Europe with other countries.
I have a colleague and a friend who came through the boat route, there were no direct flights from his part of Afghanistan. Members of his family had already been killed and his dad (who has since died) paid smugglers to get him out safely. He was 18 and had no idea where he was going. It took four months to get here and he was passed from smuggler to smuggler en route across several countries staying in some of them for weeks on end. He had no idea that he would end up in the UK and several people that he travelled with were left in Bosnia, Greece, Germany and France. I don’t know how it works, but that’s what the gangs did.
People like him should be spoken to by the authorities to hear about his experience, get intel on what is happening but he has never been approached. They should be throwing the kitchen sink at stopping the gangs, never mind stopping the boats. | | | |
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