| Judges and European Democracy 08:36 - Sep 3 with 1174 views | AnotherJohn |
Here is an interesting statement from a German judge who believes that expanding interpretations of law by European judges are leading to a kind of political paralysis that stops politicians dealing with problems, like mass immigration, with the result that people are losing faith in democracy.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/europe-s-democracy-at-risk-without-asylum-r
A few of us have discussed this in the past, including how supra-national law created by conventions and treaties hems in what national governments can do, and means that national electorates come to realise that voting for something doesn't mean a current policy will be changed. One of my main objections to the idea of rejoining the EU is that the framework of union law (the acquis communautaire), which is separate from the ECHR, waters down democracy in the member states via devices such as qualified majority voting. One ends up with a kind of stasis where 27 member states (or the required majority) take so long to agree anything, or to overcome legal challenges, that the population loses faith in the ability of governments to deal with existential problems. |  | | |  |
| Judges and European Democracy on 11:25 - Sep 3 with 1106 views | union_jack |
Surely this is why Reform advocate the scrapping of ECHR in the UK and replacing it with a tailor made set of statues enabling to carry out the wishes of the electorate which in a democracy is a must. |  |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 12:18 - Sep 3 with 1084 views | Gwyn737 |
| Judges and European Democracy on 11:25 - Sep 3 by union_jack |
Surely this is why Reform advocate the scrapping of ECHR in the UK and replacing it with a tailor made set of statues enabling to carry out the wishes of the electorate which in a democracy is a must. |
How's that working out in Belarus and Russia?
I can't comment on Reform's policy as it dont kno what would be in their Bill of Rights. | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 13:47 - Sep 3 with 1044 views | union_jack |
| Judges and European Democracy on 12:18 - Sep 3 by Gwyn737 |
How's that working out in Belarus and Russia?
I can't comment on Reform's policy as it dont kno what would be in their Bill of Rights. |
I’m not sure if the relevance of those two states to my point Gwyn?
We as a country need to be able to control our borders quickly and efficiently which going by AJ’s post seems difficult due to being hamstrung by legal instruments. | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 13:50 - Sep 3 with 1031 views | controversial_jack |
| Judges and European Democracy on 13:47 - Sep 3 by union_jack |
I’m not sure if the relevance of those two states to my point Gwyn?
We as a country need to be able to control our borders quickly and efficiently which going by AJ’s post seems difficult due to being hamstrung by legal instruments. |
There's nothing in this act to prevent it | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 14:15 - Sep 3 with 1013 views | union_jack |
| Judges and European Democracy on 13:50 - Sep 3 by controversial_jack |
There's nothing in this act to prevent it |
The article above suggests otherwise does it not? | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 14:28 - Sep 3 with 995 views | Gwyn737 |
| Judges and European Democracy on 13:47 - Sep 3 by union_jack |
I’m not sure if the relevance of those two states to my point Gwyn?
We as a country need to be able to control our borders quickly and efficiently which going by AJ’s post seems difficult due to being hamstrung by legal instruments. |
In that if we leave the EHCR we need to know what the alternative is so we're suitably informed.
Thinking that we just must leave doesn'y always redsult in more freedom hence my examples of Russia and Belarus.
As with their other policies I can't judge Reform as I don't know what they're intending to do. | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 14:39 - Sep 3 with 974 views | union_jack |
| Judges and European Democracy on 14:28 - Sep 3 by Gwyn737 |
In that if we leave the EHCR we need to know what the alternative is so we're suitably informed.
Thinking that we just must leave doesn'y always redsult in more freedom hence my examples of Russia and Belarus.
As with their other policies I can't judge Reform as I don't know what they're intending to do. |
Fair enough on the first point but to think that we’d go from the type of country we are to one like Belarus or Russia just because we scrap our attachment to the ECHR is a bit of a stretch I’d say. | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 15:01 - Sep 3 with 955 views | Gwyn737 |
| Judges and European Democracy on 14:39 - Sep 3 by union_jack |
Fair enough on the first point but to think that we’d go from the type of country we are to one like Belarus or Russia just because we scrap our attachment to the ECHR is a bit of a stretch I’d say. |
That's a fair comment.
But if we knew what would be there in it's place I wouldn't have been so flippant. | | | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 15:07 - Sep 3 with 943 views | union_jack |
| Judges and European Democracy on 15:01 - Sep 3 by Gwyn737 |
That's a fair comment.
But if we knew what would be there in it's place I wouldn't have been so flippant. |
Yes, we are all waiting for more details. For me, the intention to leave the Convention is a first positive step but by itself is clearly not enough. | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 17:19 - Sep 3 with 896 views | AnotherJohn |
Who knows how policy on the ECHR will develop in the UK. The really controversial parts are Articles 8 and 3. Even there it is not so much what the original 1951 version of the instrument says, but how the Strasbourg judges have developed the meaning of the rules. A8 about the right to a private and family life has been used in quite bizarre ways to avoid return of persons who claim they will lose a right within the meaning of this article if they are forced to leave the UK. A3 is about avoidance of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and has been used to block returns to certain countries, where for example, a person who says they are a Christian convert or gay or needing specialist medical treatment argues that they would be harmed if they returned to their native country. Even Labour politicians like Jack Straw and David Blunkett are saying that these articles should be temporarily suspended or disapplied. Straw who helped draft the Human Rights Act that brought the ECHR into domestic law claims that the intention was only that UK courts should take account of ECoHR judgements rather than follow them, and says that British judges have erred in interpreting the Act to mean that Strasbourg judgements have binding force. So there appear to be a range of options from temporary suspension of certain provisions to complete withdrawal and creation of an alternative British charter of rights. Labour are at the minimal change end of the spectrum with their proposals to offer guidance to judges to interpret the rules in a way closer to their original meaning and reduce the number of exceptional dispositions they grant. | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 18:54 - Sep 3 with 857 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Judges and European Democracy on 12:18 - Sep 3 by Gwyn737 |
How's that working out in Belarus and Russia?
I can't comment on Reform's policy as it dont kno what would be in their Bill of Rights. |
Russia basically ignore international treaties when it suits them. They’re a signatory to the Geneva convention but break that several times every day. |  |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 19:09 - Sep 3 with 846 views | Dr_Winston |
It's very much a feature rather than a flaw.
There has been a marked shift in recent decades towards Governance by politically appointed (and not elected) technocrats and Supranational Organisations such as the EU. It's been decided that people simply can't be trusted with Democracy. They can't be trusted to believe the right things, vote the right way and accept the right truths so politicians bind us into stuff like the ECHR and pretend that it's for our own good.
The UK has never gained anything from membership of it as it provided rights that we already possessed, but you can see by the sheer volume of idiots proclaiming that leaving the ECHR would mean the end of Human Rights in the UK that a lot of the programming has worked. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 20:32 - Sep 3 with 801 views | SullutaCreturned |
Pretty much my main reason for voting leave was what I saw as the diminsihing of democracy vis a vi the reduction of power of a sovereign government in their own country because of Eu law and the treaty that that gave EU law primacy over any member states judiciary.
We have sen this challenged several times in recent years to the point that some country's now openly flaunt EU law. In fact 10 member states have now got internal borde checks which isgoing against the idea of freedom of movement.
These expanding interpretations are causing problems and something needs to be done. | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 21:25 - Sep 3 with 763 views | Gwyn737 |
| Judges and European Democracy on 19:09 - Sep 3 by Dr_Winston |
It's very much a feature rather than a flaw.
There has been a marked shift in recent decades towards Governance by politically appointed (and not elected) technocrats and Supranational Organisations such as the EU. It's been decided that people simply can't be trusted with Democracy. They can't be trusted to believe the right things, vote the right way and accept the right truths so politicians bind us into stuff like the ECHR and pretend that it's for our own good.
The UK has never gained anything from membership of it as it provided rights that we already possessed, but you can see by the sheer volume of idiots proclaiming that leaving the ECHR would mean the end of Human Rights in the UK that a lot of the programming has worked. |
We never gained anything from being part of the EU?
I would never call anyone with a different opinion to me an idiot but that seems like very ideological point of view. | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 21:38 - Sep 3 with 743 views | Dr_Winston |
| Judges and European Democracy on 21:25 - Sep 3 by Gwyn737 |
We never gained anything from being part of the EU?
I would never call anyone with a different opinion to me an idiot but that seems like very ideological point of view. |
The discussion is about the ECHR?
We gained from being part of the EEC. Had things remained at that then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Joining the EU was a massive mistake that we've not even come close to putting right. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 00:54 - Sep 4 with 676 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Judges and European Democracy on 21:38 - Sep 3 by Dr_Winston |
The discussion is about the ECHR?
We gained from being part of the EEC. Had things remained at that then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Joining the EU was a massive mistake that we've not even come close to putting right. |
The treaties that led to ever closer union between the early 90’s and 2009 should have gone to referendum. If they had and were ratified brexit would never have happened. It all went downhill with Maastricht. Add to that the fact Blair whilst campaigning for electoral votes pledged on several occasions an in/out referendum. As did Clegg and the libs in 2010. They then got into government with coalition and promptly reversed. | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 07:28 - Sep 4 with 632 views | Dr_Winston |
| Judges and European Democracy on 00:54 - Sep 4 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The treaties that led to ever closer union between the early 90’s and 2009 should have gone to referendum. If they had and were ratified brexit would never have happened. It all went downhill with Maastricht. Add to that the fact Blair whilst campaigning for electoral votes pledged on several occasions an in/out referendum. As did Clegg and the libs in 2010. They then got into government with coalition and promptly reversed. |
Yep. The signing of the Maastrict Treaty without democratic consent was a massive betrayal of British Sovereignty on a scale that would have resulted in executions in less enlightened centuries.
Blair would never have offered voters the choice no matter what he campaigned on. Ditto Clegg. Globalists to the core. Cameron only offered one to still the protests in his own party and because he thought that he'd win.
The Brexit Referendum was perhaps the first example to our Governing class that they didn't understand the people who they ruled over quite as well as they thought that they did. There have been plenty of others since, including much of the current unpleasantness. [Post edited 4 Sep 7:39]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 07:54 - Sep 4 with 619 views | pete |
| Judges and European Democracy on 07:28 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
Yep. The signing of the Maastrict Treaty without democratic consent was a massive betrayal of British Sovereignty on a scale that would have resulted in executions in less enlightened centuries.
Blair would never have offered voters the choice no matter what he campaigned on. Ditto Clegg. Globalists to the core. Cameron only offered one to still the protests in his own party and because he thought that he'd win.
The Brexit Referendum was perhaps the first example to our Governing class that they didn't understand the people who they ruled over quite as well as they thought that they did. There have been plenty of others since, including much of the current unpleasantness. [Post edited 4 Sep 7:39]
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We all have differing opinions and whilst i can see why people are looking at reform to solve our border issues what really scares me is the way mr farage is in sinc with that liar and idiot trump, many will disagree i know but the democracy we have will , again only my opinion , disapear like whats happening today in the usa the way trump is riding over everything whilst his family making billions, that can and should never happen here thats what worries me about reform and their man at the helm.
Mind you theres not much out there in any party is there? | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 08:21 - Sep 4 with 609 views | Dr_Winston |
| Judges and European Democracy on 07:54 - Sep 4 by pete |
We all have differing opinions and whilst i can see why people are looking at reform to solve our border issues what really scares me is the way mr farage is in sinc with that liar and idiot trump, many will disagree i know but the democracy we have will , again only my opinion , disapear like whats happening today in the usa the way trump is riding over everything whilst his family making billions, that can and should never happen here thats what worries me about reform and their man at the helm.
Mind you theres not much out there in any party is there? |
Trump is basically the same as Farage, but a symptom rather than a cause.
When people feel that their problems and needs are being ignored by the mainstream, they will go somewhere else. That's a tale as old as Human Civilisation itself. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 16:55 - Sep 4 with 469 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Judges and European Democracy on 07:54 - Sep 4 by pete |
We all have differing opinions and whilst i can see why people are looking at reform to solve our border issues what really scares me is the way mr farage is in sinc with that liar and idiot trump, many will disagree i know but the democracy we have will , again only my opinion , disapear like whats happening today in the usa the way trump is riding over everything whilst his family making billions, that can and should never happen here thats what worries me about reform and their man at the helm.
Mind you theres not much out there in any party is there? |
We have the same opinion. Putting Farage in charge over here could be an unmitigated disaster. He is all bluster and flim flam.
The problem is that our politicians have been so useless and/or stopped listening to us and done exactly as they please that people have become so very disillussioned with them and have lurched to the right, further right than the tories too, if they vote for Reform.
I can't vote for Farage but neither Labour nor Tory either. It doesn't leave much choice. | | | |
| Judges and European Democracy on 21:35 - Sep 4 with 412 views | Flashberryjack |
| Judges and European Democracy on 16:55 - Sep 4 by SullutaCreturned |
We have the same opinion. Putting Farage in charge over here could be an unmitigated disaster. He is all bluster and flim flam.
The problem is that our politicians have been so useless and/or stopped listening to us and done exactly as they please that people have become so very disillussioned with them and have lurched to the right, further right than the tories too, if they vote for Reform.
I can't vote for Farage but neither Labour nor Tory either. It doesn't leave much choice. |
Fancy the Green party?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyrev00lwno |  |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 22:32 - Sep 4 with 367 views | Dr_Winston |
The "Tit Hypnotist" as I've seen him described.
The Greens are perhaps the most contemptible of political parties. Too cowardly to acknowledge their true beliefs and join the absolute loons on the Labour left or maybe Jezbollah, they pretend to be something different. They mask their Communist lunacy in the guise of environmental protection.
Fortunately not much more than a comedy vote in the UK they do somehow hold some sway elsewhere in Europe. Probably not for much longer though. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 23:28 - Sep 4 with 340 views | onehunglow |
| Judges and European Democracy on 22:32 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
The "Tit Hypnotist" as I've seen him described.
The Greens are perhaps the most contemptible of political parties. Too cowardly to acknowledge their true beliefs and join the absolute loons on the Labour left or maybe Jezbollah, they pretend to be something different. They mask their Communist lunacy in the guise of environmental protection.
Fortunately not much more than a comedy vote in the UK they do somehow hold some sway elsewhere in Europe. Probably not for much longer though. |
Brilliant post
But massive on liberal sunny Brighton | |
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| Judges and European Democracy on 00:56 - Sep 5 with 317 views | Robbie |
Both referendum votes were as the British public wanted and were granted .
2016 the first one I voted in was to stay , the firm I worked for traded with Europe as a big customer base , exported loads to Europe so lets keep is on target .
2020 the second vote was chaotic , Bojo was in charge with no leadership skills apart from later becoming an excellent party planner , undercurrents of doubt and border control started to come front and centre in the debate .
I voted leave second time around , looking back did I make the right call . | | | |
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