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What "success"?
Okay, i get all the three-year-plan-this-year-playoffs business
The only success would be to either win a trophy (failed when it was at our mercy) or promotion
If we're promoted, your argument would be vindicated, to some extent
If not, my argument - that the ultimate aim of the Ogdens is for the club to become self-sustaining - has moved further away in terms of enthusiasm for attending let alone recruiting new fans
I'm taking the longer term view, and there's nothing - no stat, no vibe, no evidence - that suggests the Ogden's goal has been advanced this season
Promotion would, of course, enhance our finances but it's not just about the cashflow. The Ogdens recognise this when stating that self-sustainability is the object regardless of status. That last part is important
The initiative launched this week regarding Dale Futures is fantastic. It's to be hoped that educational support for young people will have a knock-on effect on attendance at games. If they turn up and spend 90 minutes thinking "wtf am i doing here?" - see TS's comment about Aaron Wilbraham - then it's a shocking waste of potential
Having saved the club, our new owners simply can't afford to waste the main product - onfield entertainment - on a manager too rigid and ultimately unable to change the attraction of what fans expect when watching football
I'm sorry if that sticks in your craw. It sticks in mine too, hence my counterpoint to your points [Post edited 25 Apr 21:06]
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I’m being flippant, of course.
That’s the other issue. It has to be black or white, it seems. Anyone who has read anything I’ve posted on here or elsewhere will be fully aware I’m not blind to our weaknesses and have been critical of them. That doesn’t mean I can’t promote the positives. The fact we are fifth in the table should evidence that the positives have outweighed the negatives this season. If that’s where we finish, then that’s success in my book, especially following where we were this time last season off the field. That’s my opinion and that’s why I’m supportive overall. I love this team too. I feel this is squad that supporters can identify with for the first time in what seems an age.
I’ve found this season a lot more enjoyable than the eventual BBM descent into League Two and the Stockdale/Bentley carnage that followed. If others haven’t, that’s up to them, but I can’t understand it.
McNulty won’t be Dale manager forever and that will be to do with success taking him away or eventual failure not being tolerated. Just now, he is doing fine. Not even Keith Hill could keep it going forever, though. I get that. That’s football. Or is it? I’m not sure I understand the game anymore. I read that Leeds are considering sacking Daniel Farke after he just got them promoted to the farking Premier League. Perhaps the game I fell in love with 40 odd years ago has, as they say, gone.
If McNulty fails next season, then that’s next season. I’m in the here and now and in the here and now, he has us on target. |  |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:19 - Apr 25 with 2439 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:02 - Apr 25 by D_Alien |
What "success"?
Okay, i get all the three-year-plan-this-year-playoffs business
The only success would be to either win a trophy (failed when it was at our mercy) or promotion
If we're promoted, your argument would be vindicated, to some extent
If not, my argument - that the ultimate aim of the Ogdens is for the club to become self-sustaining - has moved further away in terms of enthusiasm for attending let alone recruiting new fans
I'm taking the longer term view, and there's nothing - no stat, no vibe, no evidence - that suggests the Ogden's goal has been advanced this season
Promotion would, of course, enhance our finances but it's not just about the cashflow. The Ogdens recognise this when stating that self-sustainability is the object regardless of status. That last part is important
The initiative launched this week regarding Dale Futures is fantastic. It's to be hoped that educational support for young people will have a knock-on effect on attendance at games. If they turn up and spend 90 minutes thinking "wtf am i doing here?" - see TS's comment about Aaron Wilbraham - then it's a shocking waste of potential
Having saved the club, our new owners simply can't afford to waste the main product - onfield entertainment - on a manager too rigid and ultimately unable to change the attraction of what fans expect when watching football
I'm sorry if that sticks in your craw. It sticks in mine too, hence my counterpoint to your points [Post edited 25 Apr 21:06]
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For around half the home games we’ve seen some good entertainment, for the rest we haven’t. Criticism of the poor displays have been justified.
Whether or not that is good enough for the decision makers at the club only they will know. Turning up every week with a 50/50 chance of seeing a good game/result is something only individual fans can say meets their criteria. After years (inc recently) of much worse, in my opinion, it’s not bad but incredibly frustrating and totally tiresome for the rubbish games. I acknowledge and agree with those who come away from those matches with serious doubts (see isitme’s post for reasons)
Every manager is judged on results, there have been times McNulty was in trouble if his team didn’t get one during a bad run. So far they’ve responded. That, 5th place and an even chance of a decent game to watch is where we are at right now.
Lose the next three and miss the playoffs? Well, it’s a results business and things change again. |  |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:22 - Apr 25 with 2430 views | D_Alien |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:07 - Apr 25 by fitzochris |
I’m being flippant, of course.
That’s the other issue. It has to be black or white, it seems. Anyone who has read anything I’ve posted on here or elsewhere will be fully aware I’m not blind to our weaknesses and have been critical of them. That doesn’t mean I can’t promote the positives. The fact we are fifth in the table should evidence that the positives have outweighed the negatives this season. If that’s where we finish, then that’s success in my book, especially following where we were this time last season off the field. That’s my opinion and that’s why I’m supportive overall. I love this team too. I feel this is squad that supporters can identify with for the first time in what seems an age.
I’ve found this season a lot more enjoyable than the eventual BBM descent into League Two and the Stockdale/Bentley carnage that followed. If others haven’t, that’s up to them, but I can’t understand it.
McNulty won’t be Dale manager forever and that will be to do with success taking him away or eventual failure not being tolerated. Just now, he is doing fine. Not even Keith Hill could keep it going forever, though. I get that. That’s football. Or is it? I’m not sure I understand the game anymore. I read that Leeds are considering sacking Daniel Farke after he just got them promoted to the farking Premier League. Perhaps the game I fell in love with 40 odd years ago has, as they say, gone.
If McNulty fails next season, then that’s next season. I’m in the here and now and in the here and now, he has us on target. |
We shouldn't even have to be discussing these things, given our league position
The fact that we are (not just a few of us) is enough to suggest there's something badly wrong
I wish it weren't so, but wishing won't make people enjoy what's being put in front of them. Toleration - which is what seems to be the best it can be described as - isn't what the club was saved for |  |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:26 - Apr 25 with 2411 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:07 - Apr 25 by fitzochris |
I’m being flippant, of course.
That’s the other issue. It has to be black or white, it seems. Anyone who has read anything I’ve posted on here or elsewhere will be fully aware I’m not blind to our weaknesses and have been critical of them. That doesn’t mean I can’t promote the positives. The fact we are fifth in the table should evidence that the positives have outweighed the negatives this season. If that’s where we finish, then that’s success in my book, especially following where we were this time last season off the field. That’s my opinion and that’s why I’m supportive overall. I love this team too. I feel this is squad that supporters can identify with for the first time in what seems an age.
I’ve found this season a lot more enjoyable than the eventual BBM descent into League Two and the Stockdale/Bentley carnage that followed. If others haven’t, that’s up to them, but I can’t understand it.
McNulty won’t be Dale manager forever and that will be to do with success taking him away or eventual failure not being tolerated. Just now, he is doing fine. Not even Keith Hill could keep it going forever, though. I get that. That’s football. Or is it? I’m not sure I understand the game anymore. I read that Leeds are considering sacking Daniel Farke after he just got them promoted to the farking Premier League. Perhaps the game I fell in love with 40 odd years ago has, as they say, gone.
If McNulty fails next season, then that’s next season. I’m in the here and now and in the here and now, he has us on target. |
If it was black or white, where was the uproar after Steve Parkin’s first season when we won 8 home games, scored 21 goals at Spotland and only 4 before Christmas?
And that was seen as a period when the club started to move in a positive direction! | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:28 - Apr 25 with 2395 views | fitzochris |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:26 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
If it was black or white, where was the uproar after Steve Parkin’s first season when we won 8 home games, scored 21 goals at Spotland and only 4 before Christmas?
And that was seen as a period when the club started to move in a positive direction! |
Precisely. Maybe I don’t get football anymore or what it is to support Rochdale AFC. | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:28 - Apr 25 with 2389 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:22 - Apr 25 by D_Alien |
We shouldn't even have to be discussing these things, given our league position
The fact that we are (not just a few of us) is enough to suggest there's something badly wrong
I wish it weren't so, but wishing won't make people enjoy what's being put in front of them. Toleration - which is what seems to be the best it can be described as - isn't what the club was saved for |
Did we tolerate in 99/00?
If so, why less toleration now?
Genuine questions by the way. | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:46 - Apr 25 with 2329 views | D_Alien |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:28 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
Did we tolerate in 99/00?
If so, why less toleration now?
Genuine questions by the way. |
Prior to Parkin (first term) we'd been the "same old Rochdale" for literally decades
Any transient advances went in a flash (Danny Bergara) whilst some gave it large but ended up becoming small beer (Dave Sutton)
Parkin introduced the first real sustained level of professionalism into the team (even if his overall tenure at the club was 'dubious') and whilst our home games weren't great watches for some of the time, it was appreciated that the general direction was on track and gates suddenly started to rise beyond the baseline that'd become our norm
I keep coming back to this point about gates, and sustainability. I do so not to denigrate anyone but to make the point that for the Ogden programme to succeed, they need to be grown. It's not going to happen unless McNulty has a mind-numbing transplant from what we've seen over the past two years
Edit: apologies, but that's probably denigrating McNulty - but not on a personal level, he's been a good servant to the club [Post edited 25 Apr 21:50]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:02 - Apr 25 with 2258 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:26 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
If it was black or white, where was the uproar after Steve Parkin’s first season when we won 8 home games, scored 21 goals at Spotland and only 4 before Christmas?
And that was seen as a period when the club started to move in a positive direction! |
Parking signed some very good players and we also played some good football under him. He wasnt managing in non league and against opposition some of who are part time clubs and with a budget that will be larger than most clubs in the league.
McNulty is a clone of BBM who under achieved with a good squad of players and his style of play was responsible for the worst run of home results in the clubs history, tippy tappy football which was terrible to watch...there is a pattern. They are both coaches and are comfortable working with young footballers, i don't think it's a coincidence that we've signed so many youngsters during the season. I also think it's jeopardised our promotion chances because areas of the team that needed strengthening have simply been ignored. The fans aren't daft. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:12]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:05 - Apr 25 with 2240 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:46 - Apr 25 by D_Alien |
Prior to Parkin (first term) we'd been the "same old Rochdale" for literally decades
Any transient advances went in a flash (Danny Bergara) whilst some gave it large but ended up becoming small beer (Dave Sutton)
Parkin introduced the first real sustained level of professionalism into the team (even if his overall tenure at the club was 'dubious') and whilst our home games weren't great watches for some of the time, it was appreciated that the general direction was on track and gates suddenly started to rise beyond the baseline that'd become our norm
I keep coming back to this point about gates, and sustainability. I do so not to denigrate anyone but to make the point that for the Ogden programme to succeed, they need to be grown. It's not going to happen unless McNulty has a mind-numbing transplant from what we've seen over the past two years
Edit: apologies, but that's probably denigrating McNulty - but not on a personal level, he's been a good servant to the club [Post edited 25 Apr 21:50]
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Terry Dolan brought cup success and produced a solid team with an outside chance of the playoffs in his only full season. Sutton had attacking sides who fell short when it mattered.
Both had the club moving in the right direction before falling short (Hull made a decision for us with Dolan). Parkin had 2.5 years good year though his teams also fell short at crucial times. Sutton had a good 91/92 and 93/94 (with that same caveat) and an erratic but sometimes fantastically entertaining 92/93 campaign. So it could be argued his spell was better than Parkin’s - it would certainly make for a good debate.
Gates had risen under Sutton falling under Barrow then rising again under Parkin despite the pretty attritional football on offer during his first season. So therefore it appears it wasn’t the style of football that increased Rochdale attendances then as it wasn’t as expansive as seen under Sutton, but yes there were signs that Parkin would be the man who knew how to get results given time.
So is it about results or style of football in the present day? Maybe Rochdale fans have changed in what they want. | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:09 - Apr 25 with 2218 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:02 - Apr 25 by TalkingSutty |
Parking signed some very good players and we also played some good football under him. He wasnt managing in non league and against opposition some of who are part time clubs and with a budget that will be larger than most clubs in the league.
McNulty is a clone of BBM who under achieved with a good squad of players and his style of play was responsible for the worst run of home results in the clubs history, tippy tappy football which was terrible to watch...there is a pattern. They are both coaches and are comfortable working with young footballers, i don't think it's a coincidence that we've signed so many youngsters during the season. I also think it's jeopardised our promotion chances because areas of the team that needed strengthening have simply been ignored. The fans aren't daft. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:12]
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No they aren’t. It’s not simply about comparing McNulty to Parkin. I’m looking at different Dale eras and how fans perceived the team, results and performance.
At no stage have I tried to discredit what Parkin achieved. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:09]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:10 - Apr 25 with 2220 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 21:28 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
Did we tolerate in 99/00?
If so, why less toleration now?
Genuine questions by the way. |
Because we're operating outside the football league, competing against clubs who are part time and have a larger budget than most clubs in this league. That's different to 99/00? I think thats why some fans might seem less tolerant. Why do some fans have lower expectations and think we should replicate what we saw previously? Celebrate failure and try to replicate it? Genuine question. It's supposedly a new era, new mindsets are required, winning mentality's and a expectancy to always do better. | | | |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:20 - Apr 25 with 2190 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:09 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
No they aren’t. It’s not simply about comparing McNulty to Parkin. I’m looking at different Dale eras and how fans perceived the team, results and performance.
At no stage have I tried to discredit what Parkin achieved. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:09]
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I didn't compare Parkin to McNulty. I compared McNulty to BBM. I preferred Parkins football to what i'm watching now. I pointed out that Parkin was managing in a league which was more difficult than this and with one of the smallest budgets at the time.
There's nothing wrong with thinking that McNulty is doing a good job and thinking he's the man to take us forward. I respect those who think that way, even though i disagree , but I suspect that's not replicated the other way. There seems to be a need to try to justify McNultys worth by comparing with different eras and statistics which are biased to one side of the discussion and do nothing to reflect some of the performances we've had to endure.. and they have been a endurance, there's been plenty of them and they've been costly. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:34]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:31 - Apr 25 with 2158 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:10 - Apr 25 by TalkingSutty |
Because we're operating outside the football league, competing against clubs who are part time and have a larger budget than most clubs in this league. That's different to 99/00? I think thats why some fans might seem less tolerant. Why do some fans have lower expectations and think we should replicate what we saw previously? Celebrate failure and try to replicate it? Genuine question. It's supposedly a new era, new mindsets are required, winning mentality's and a expectancy to always do better. |
I’m not lowering my expectations and expect us to have done much better in many games this season.
At the same time I’m not dismissive of being in a different division just because it isn’t the Football League. There are plenty of god awful sides we faced during the Sutton and Parkin eras as well - chronologically off the top of my head: Aldershot, Halifax, Northampton, Chester, Cheltenham (who finished 8th!), Halifax again and Barnet. | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:35 - Apr 25 with 2126 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:20 - Apr 25 by TalkingSutty |
I didn't compare Parkin to McNulty. I compared McNulty to BBM. I preferred Parkins football to what i'm watching now. I pointed out that Parkin was managing in a league which was more difficult than this and with one of the smallest budgets at the time.
There's nothing wrong with thinking that McNulty is doing a good job and thinking he's the man to take us forward. I respect those who think that way, even though i disagree , but I suspect that's not replicated the other way. There seems to be a need to try to justify McNultys worth by comparing with different eras and statistics which are biased to one side of the discussion and do nothing to reflect some of the performances we've had to endure.. and they have been a endurance, there's been plenty of them and they've been costly. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:34]
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I was asking about the reactions to that Parkin season, didn’t mention McNulty.
Was reiterating that in my reply when you mentioned the current era.
Edit: there is no justification of McNulty’s faults or where we have underachieved. It’s looking at the bigger picture of being a Dale fan. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:39]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:42 - Apr 25 with 2095 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:31 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
I’m not lowering my expectations and expect us to have done much better in many games this season.
At the same time I’m not dismissive of being in a different division just because it isn’t the Football League. There are plenty of god awful sides we faced during the Sutton and Parkin eras as well - chronologically off the top of my head: Aldershot, Halifax, Northampton, Chester, Cheltenham (who finished 8th!), Halifax again and Barnet. |
I still think those teams were better than some of the stuff we see in this league. We aren't great but in nearly every game we dominate posession home and away but still find a way of throwing points away on a regular basis. The standard in the National League is worse than I've seen in nearly 50 years. When we were crap in the 70s/80s there was still plenty of good teams in the bottom league. | | | |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:52 - Apr 25 with 2068 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:42 - Apr 25 by TalkingSutty |
I still think those teams were better than some of the stuff we see in this league. We aren't great but in nearly every game we dominate posession home and away but still find a way of throwing points away on a regular basis. The standard in the National League is worse than I've seen in nearly 50 years. When we were crap in the 70s/80s there was still plenty of good teams in the bottom league. |
Whereas I believe the standard of players seen during the 80s was, in the main, shocking.
I don’t think this league is that good by the way. It’s not, in my opinion, the level of dross seen in 87/88 for example. There were “big clubs” like Burnley during that period who were totally woeful. | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 23:17 - Apr 25 with 2004 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 22:35 - Apr 25 by 442Dale |
I was asking about the reactions to that Parkin season, didn’t mention McNulty.
Was reiterating that in my reply when you mentioned the current era.
Edit: there is no justification of McNulty’s faults or where we have underachieved. It’s looking at the bigger picture of being a Dale fan. [Post edited 25 Apr 22:39]
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To try to answer your question, the landscape has changed and so has society. People do have more disposable income now and they also have more choice when it comes to how they spend it. Results are always the priority and as you always say they dictate the mood. I think entertainment is now more important than ever though, especially in the lower leagues. The only way to increase attendances is to make the matchday experience a good one and make the punters want to come back for more. I hark back to the Spennynoor game because it was a showcase fixture in front of 6000 fans. It was a conscious decision to play like we did during that first half and i don't think i was the only fan who felt embarrassed at what was served up. Trying to explain it at half time to those in the bar was impossible, they were laughing at our display against a lower league team. So that's the bigger picture for me, we need a manager who finds those type of performances unacceptable and doesn't want to be associated with them. We can't be sure there's not another one lined up tomorrow or in the play offs and it makes it impossible to kick start project 5000. | | | |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 23:32 - Apr 25 with 1965 views | Sandyman |
You can argue the toss about past and present Dale teams, stats, xG, possession percentages forever. Solves nowt today.
The 2024/25 team has got to a play off position (so far). Ace. One wonders why how so given the amount of away draws conceded from winning positions. But we are currently there. We've seen a team that can batter most in this league on their day. We've seen a team that can be totally boring and ineffectual too often with a manager revelling in possession obsession and tippy tappy tripe which is driving regulars away. We've seen unimaginative tactics and a manager who can't wait to see us as "poor little Rochdale" compared to the assumed "clout" of others, including tomorrow's opponents who are going through an ownership crisis of their own. We've seen a manager whose side has been great in defence at times.
It's all very confusing. The one worry I have for tomorrow and upcoming games is lack of nerve / bottle. Our live home televised games in the NL have been weak. Larger attendances v Spennymoor and last Saturday were greeted with weak performances. Oldham at home, we gave up after 15 minutes. Hartlepool is an important game - do we have the "bottle" to fight for a play off place and home draw? We've lacked it far too often this season. Is this a reflection of a weak manager?
We'll know by teatime tomorrow how the 2025 team deals with the pressure. [Post edited 25 Apr 23:39]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 00:11 - Apr 26 with 1899 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 23:17 - Apr 25 by TalkingSutty |
To try to answer your question, the landscape has changed and so has society. People do have more disposable income now and they also have more choice when it comes to how they spend it. Results are always the priority and as you always say they dictate the mood. I think entertainment is now more important than ever though, especially in the lower leagues. The only way to increase attendances is to make the matchday experience a good one and make the punters want to come back for more. I hark back to the Spennynoor game because it was a showcase fixture in front of 6000 fans. It was a conscious decision to play like we did during that first half and i don't think i was the only fan who felt embarrassed at what was served up. Trying to explain it at half time to those in the bar was impossible, they were laughing at our display against a lower league team. So that's the bigger picture for me, we need a manager who finds those type of performances unacceptable and doesn't want to be associated with them. We can't be sure there's not another one lined up tomorrow or in the play offs and it makes it impossible to kick start project 5000. |
That’s where there’s total agreement: the landscape and society has indeed changed. That was the thought process around reflection on the past - there has been a change in how some supporters react to what they see on a Saturday afternoon. It’s not comparing manager to manager, more one period of time to another.
Which is why focusing on the current Dale side is probably best, rather than anyone suggesting we have the worst manager in our history/it being the worst league we’ve ever played/the football is as bad as we’ve known - mainly because, as has been noted, this isn’t the reality.
To do so could be seen as an attempt to reinforce an opinion about what we’ve seen this season when, as Sandyman has explained well, there’s actually no doubt we have experienced so much frustration and rightful annoyance at the inconsistencies across the campaign.
In a season where we have done quite well on paper I believe the reality is that the criticism by supporters has been justified. It’s that the criticism loses some credibility when it has negative hyperbole attached. | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 05:58 - Apr 26 with 1723 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 00:11 - Apr 26 by 442Dale |
That’s where there’s total agreement: the landscape and society has indeed changed. That was the thought process around reflection on the past - there has been a change in how some supporters react to what they see on a Saturday afternoon. It’s not comparing manager to manager, more one period of time to another.
Which is why focusing on the current Dale side is probably best, rather than anyone suggesting we have the worst manager in our history/it being the worst league we’ve ever played/the football is as bad as we’ve known - mainly because, as has been noted, this isn’t the reality.
To do so could be seen as an attempt to reinforce an opinion about what we’ve seen this season when, as Sandyman has explained well, there’s actually no doubt we have experienced so much frustration and rightful annoyance at the inconsistencies across the campaign.
In a season where we have done quite well on paper I believe the reality is that the criticism by supporters has been justified. It’s that the criticism loses some credibility when it has negative hyperbole attached. |
It's pretty simple to me. I dont mind us losing football matches but when we are beating ourselves with a style of football which is foreign to how the game should be played then the finger needs firmly pointing at the manager. We've seen too many games like that and dropped a lot of points as a result. A style of football that gives our opponents time to regroup, sit back and play attack v defence, something they probably practice in every training ground session...and that's what McNulty tries to inflict on the paying public. Nobody wants to watch sterile football with the emotion extracted, playing little triangles in our own half with the opposition just happy to watch us isn't football. Second half decisions to give up the territory on the pitch and regress in order to manage the game. Negative substitutions, too many times resulting in points being tossed down the drain.
The reality for me is that in too many games some of the football I've seen is as bad as I've seen us play and thats not hyperbole as you are suggesting, its the reality as i see it. Listen to the mood music from long serving fans, they can't all be wrong. Look at the numbers of fans who choose not to attend games because of performances. It's not hyperbole or over reaction. Even when we had less talented players there was always a priority to attack and you never saw us trying to play it out from the back, a tactic that most of the time results in the ball being funnelled back to the keeper who kicks it long to nobody in particular. I didn't mention previous managers, i believe it was you that did that when you highlighted stats relating to Steve Parkin, i responded to your post. Comparing teams, players, managers from different eras is what football fans do and this is the complete opposite of 'no fear' football, the players look scared to death of expressing themselves and the tactics are negative and designed not to lose football matches, even against the poorest of opposition.
McNulty will revel in the defensive record and wear it as a badge of honour but the reality is that had he put as much effort into recruiting properly and concentrating on the business end of the pitch we would have won more matches. To get out of this league you need to score about 100 goals a season and there's no chance of us doing that with the style of dot to dot football McNulty prefers. Barnet and York just walked straight through us and scored goals at will, not interested in any tactical jousting, they had just one purpose and that was putting the ball in the net as many times as possible. Anyway, let's see what today brings, I'm expecting that respecting the point will be part of today's team talk, alongside the prospect of facing the 'clout' of a financially strapped Hartlepool who have nothing to play for. As i said, we'll flop into the play offs, even a defeat today could do it but don't tell Jim that. The end of season awards tonight also send out the wrong message, the focus should be fully on playing another five games. It's not the time to be slapping each other on the back, there's still a lot of football to be played. That should have been the message from the manager, psychologically having a end of season award with the seasons most important fixtures still to come can't be good for the players surely? I understand the convenience but that shouldn't trump the priority. [Post edited 26 Apr 7:38]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 08:17 - Apr 26 with 1551 views | blackdogblue |
I can’t really comment on matters on the pitch as it’s no secret I have stopped going.
Someone will correct me if I’m wrong here but something in the back of my mind says we have lost our Acadamy status / funding?
Getting back into the league would allow more talent to rise and maybe another Luke or Craig Dawson for example? Transfer fees for talented youngsters goes a long way towards sustainability.
Yes, I was disappointed we lost in the semi final but would rather go to Wembley and see the Dale promoted than a jolly day out for a Mickey Mouse cup. |  |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 08:31 - Apr 26 with 1534 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 08:17 - Apr 26 by blackdogblue |
I can’t really comment on matters on the pitch as it’s no secret I have stopped going.
Someone will correct me if I’m wrong here but something in the back of my mind says we have lost our Acadamy status / funding?
Getting back into the league would allow more talent to rise and maybe another Luke or Craig Dawson for example? Transfer fees for talented youngsters goes a long way towards sustainability.
Yes, I was disappointed we lost in the semi final but would rather go to Wembley and see the Dale promoted than a jolly day out for a Mickey Mouse cup. |
I think everybody will agree with that. You're right about the academy and i think there's a element of finding young talent for the future with the managers insistence on signing players of a similar profile, young wide players. If he signs enough of them he will eventually strike gold which will bring money into the club hopefully. It seems to have taken priority over other areas of the team that needed strengthening and isnt the best use of the budget. Thats just a hunch i have, the recruitment during the season makes no sense. I believe Keith Hill was on a percentage of incoming transfer fees, i wonder if McNulty has the same arrangement.
We have a very realistic chance of returning to the EFL in less than six weeks time, there's a fair chance it could be our best opportunity over the next three years. i don't think there is the belief though, nobody dare mention it, we're having the end of season awards tonight..it sounds ridiculous doesnt it? The managers first instinct when asked about today's game against Hartlepool was to try to suggest why it will be a struggle, imaginary financial clout or something! Nothing positive in his message, no rallying cry both from him or the club. [Post edited 26 Apr 8:54]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 09:02 - Apr 26 with 1432 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 05:58 - Apr 26 by TalkingSutty |
It's pretty simple to me. I dont mind us losing football matches but when we are beating ourselves with a style of football which is foreign to how the game should be played then the finger needs firmly pointing at the manager. We've seen too many games like that and dropped a lot of points as a result. A style of football that gives our opponents time to regroup, sit back and play attack v defence, something they probably practice in every training ground session...and that's what McNulty tries to inflict on the paying public. Nobody wants to watch sterile football with the emotion extracted, playing little triangles in our own half with the opposition just happy to watch us isn't football. Second half decisions to give up the territory on the pitch and regress in order to manage the game. Negative substitutions, too many times resulting in points being tossed down the drain.
The reality for me is that in too many games some of the football I've seen is as bad as I've seen us play and thats not hyperbole as you are suggesting, its the reality as i see it. Listen to the mood music from long serving fans, they can't all be wrong. Look at the numbers of fans who choose not to attend games because of performances. It's not hyperbole or over reaction. Even when we had less talented players there was always a priority to attack and you never saw us trying to play it out from the back, a tactic that most of the time results in the ball being funnelled back to the keeper who kicks it long to nobody in particular. I didn't mention previous managers, i believe it was you that did that when you highlighted stats relating to Steve Parkin, i responded to your post. Comparing teams, players, managers from different eras is what football fans do and this is the complete opposite of 'no fear' football, the players look scared to death of expressing themselves and the tactics are negative and designed not to lose football matches, even against the poorest of opposition.
McNulty will revel in the defensive record and wear it as a badge of honour but the reality is that had he put as much effort into recruiting properly and concentrating on the business end of the pitch we would have won more matches. To get out of this league you need to score about 100 goals a season and there's no chance of us doing that with the style of dot to dot football McNulty prefers. Barnet and York just walked straight through us and scored goals at will, not interested in any tactical jousting, they had just one purpose and that was putting the ball in the net as many times as possible. Anyway, let's see what today brings, I'm expecting that respecting the point will be part of today's team talk, alongside the prospect of facing the 'clout' of a financially strapped Hartlepool who have nothing to play for. As i said, we'll flop into the play offs, even a defeat today could do it but don't tell Jim that. The end of season awards tonight also send out the wrong message, the focus should be fully on playing another five games. It's not the time to be slapping each other on the back, there's still a lot of football to be played. That should have been the message from the manager, psychologically having a end of season award with the seasons most important fixtures still to come can't be good for the players surely? I understand the convenience but that shouldn't trump the priority. [Post edited 26 Apr 7:38]
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The criticism about how we have played this season is justified, I said exactly that. I don’t dispute how fans feel and can appreciate why, because I share a lot of those feelings after games and says so. That’s why I find it interesting talking to you and other fans for your perspectives of being at games, it offers time to reflect on what I see.
The negative hyperbole is when it’s claimed to be the “worst ever” etc.
The mention of Parkin was used to illustrate how times have changed as a Dale fan, which you summed up perfectly when you said the landscape and society have also changed. Because his era and the reigns of other managers contained football that was just as bad if not worse than now. (For what it’s worth I believe Parkin was a better Dale manager than McNulty if we are talking about direct comparisons)
The stats provided and associated opinions about previous eras is exactly what football fans do, as you say. I really enjoy talking about those times! I found them a much better time to be a football fan. But at the same time I can be honest enough to admit we watched a lot of rubbish back then. I wouldn’t use that to defend McNulty or how we play now though, because the shortcomings are obvious to all.
But when those previous eras are used as some sort of evidence to support the view that what we watch now is that bad, it is not the case. We’ve had it a lot worse as Dale fans in my opinion and also a lot better. But that’s the life of a football fan.
And without wanting to start it all up again… we haven’t always had a priority to attack in the past. Thats the hyperbole. Listing every Dale side who haven’t is not something I want to do before making a coffee! | |
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 09:11 - Apr 26 with 1409 views | TalkingSutty |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 09:02 - Apr 26 by 442Dale |
The criticism about how we have played this season is justified, I said exactly that. I don’t dispute how fans feel and can appreciate why, because I share a lot of those feelings after games and says so. That’s why I find it interesting talking to you and other fans for your perspectives of being at games, it offers time to reflect on what I see.
The negative hyperbole is when it’s claimed to be the “worst ever” etc.
The mention of Parkin was used to illustrate how times have changed as a Dale fan, which you summed up perfectly when you said the landscape and society have also changed. Because his era and the reigns of other managers contained football that was just as bad if not worse than now. (For what it’s worth I believe Parkin was a better Dale manager than McNulty if we are talking about direct comparisons)
The stats provided and associated opinions about previous eras is exactly what football fans do, as you say. I really enjoy talking about those times! I found them a much better time to be a football fan. But at the same time I can be honest enough to admit we watched a lot of rubbish back then. I wouldn’t use that to defend McNulty or how we play now though, because the shortcomings are obvious to all.
But when those previous eras are used as some sort of evidence to support the view that what we watch now is that bad, it is not the case. We’ve had it a lot worse as Dale fans in my opinion and also a lot better. But that’s the life of a football fan.
And without wanting to start it all up again… we haven’t always had a priority to attack in the past. Thats the hyperbole. Listing every Dale side who haven’t is not something I want to do before making a coffee! |
That's fair enough, football is about opinions though and I've never seen such unwatchable football as I've seen under McNulty. It's compounded by the fact that he is working with some very good footballers. BBM runs him a very close second, another player blessed with good footballers. There is a common theme. [Post edited 26 Apr 9:14]
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| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 09:17 - Apr 26 with 1371 views | 442Dale |
| TVOS Preview - Rochdale v Hartlepool United on 09:11 - Apr 26 by TalkingSutty |
That's fair enough, football is about opinions though and I've never seen such unwatchable football as I've seen under McNulty. It's compounded by the fact that he is working with some very good footballers. BBM runs him a very close second, another player blessed with good footballers. There is a common theme. [Post edited 26 Apr 9:14]
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Yep, there’s been some totally boring and tiresome football over the last couple of years.
Having made that coffee I can say that BBM was far worse because of his inability to find a structure that meant that decent squad stayed up. That was poor management because it’s about getting results and the league table doesn’t lie. | |
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