| Religion and the far right 14:47 - Jul 28 with 10918 views | saint901 |
Our news threads are filled with the usual summer madness in the UK of young, lagered up men being told a lie, choosing to believe it and subsequently throwing insults and eventually bricks and worse at anybody who doesn't look like them.
The far right is becoming more mainstream and we se them weaponising fear and making claims that our country (of 70 million) is being "invaded" by a few thousand people arriving here illegally. (If a poor person arrives this way, he/she is illegal. If a rich person arrives and takes years to "clarify" their status, he/she is an "investor". )
More recently I've seen more posts linking being a "christian" to being a "patriot" and that "christians" have a duty - almost a religious duty - to be passing the bricks to those stupid enough to believe the sort of racist and xenophobic nonsense being spouted.
I am not a religious person. I have no issues with those who chose to believe, but I don't. I do however see this linking of the christian culture with what might loosely be called a doctrine in which Caucasian people are seen as in some manner superior to other races or entitled to something just because of accident of birth, as troubling.
I get that this is straight out of the right wing playbook, i.e. create a sense of jeopardy in certain groups to bring them alongside, but from what I understand of christian philosophy, its about tolerance, love they neighbour, turn the other cheek, be a good Samaritan. It's not about hate other people who have less than we do or choose a different set of rules to live by.
(For what it's worth my understanding of other religions is that they have similar ideas but we know that some will chose to interpret the rules in very different ways). |  | | |  |
| Religion and the far right on 14:49 - Jul 28 with 3686 views | mushinexile |
How many wars has religion ever stopped? | |
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| Religion and the far right on 15:36 - Jul 28 with 3632 views | saint901 |
| Religion and the far right on 14:49 - Jul 28 by mushinexile |
How many wars has religion ever stopped? |
I was about to ask how many have they caused, but I'm not sure that this is a valid question.
History is riddled with instances of differences between people being exploited by power hungry individuals or very small groups in order to wage war or extermination on others. It is often the case that religion is weaponised in that ever incrementing strategy.
In the UK in the reign of Mary 1, protestants were burned. Her successor burned catholics. The US colonies were populated by Europeans fleeing religious persecution. The Taliban practise a version of islam that is literally foreign to most followers of that set of ideas.
And that is what religion is surely - a set of ideas.
The idea that an all powerful entity would see it necessary to place into the heads of humans the "true word of [insert name here]" is illogical. I suggest that the "true word" is often found to be politically convenient to whatever power is in place at the time - or wants to be in place.
So, I would say that "faith" - a belief in the principle of treat other people how you would like to be treated - has rarely been the cause of conflict, whereas religion - make sure that everybody at least acts as though they worship [insert word here] - is more likely to be a cause of conflict, especially when driven by those of ambition and greed. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 15:49 - Jul 28 with 3622 views | mushinexile |
You have created your own definition of Faith with which I find myself at odds. I think the concept that you have outlined would be better expressed by "ethics." I do agree that Religion is universaly a means to control those you can get to tag along and often is used to make them behave in an inhuman fashion. Much like being a football faan, really! | |
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| Religion and the far right on 16:10 - Jul 28 with 3603 views | saint901 |
| Religion and the far right on 15:49 - Jul 28 by mushinexile |
You have created your own definition of Faith with which I find myself at odds. I think the concept that you have outlined would be better expressed by "ethics." I do agree that Religion is universaly a means to control those you can get to tag along and often is used to make them behave in an inhuman fashion. Much like being a football faan, really! |
Yep, that's a fair comment.
Not sure there is much difference between a personal faith and a personal set of rules to live by. I suspect that these are symbiotic. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 16:32 - Jul 28 with 3580 views | mushinexile |
I would suggest that faith is a belief in an external entity of some nebulous description whereas ethics are one's internal or even instinctive sense of right and wrong. | |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 18:31 - Jul 28 with 3511 views | Joiedevivre |
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| Religion and the far right on 12:04 - Jul 29 with 3351 views | saint901 |
| Religion and the far right on 16:32 - Jul 28 by mushinexile |
I would suggest that faith is a belief in an external entity of some nebulous description whereas ethics are one's internal or even instinctive sense of right and wrong. |
I'd question whether "faith" involves some form of acceptance or belief in an external entity.
I've always been of the view that the human spirit, driven by a will to survive that is shared in all life from simple algae upwards, is a powerful force.
I do very much regret that some humans are very skilled manipulators of that force and as such there are instances where that power can be misdirected or used for negative objectives but that is where we need to be critical and apply some intelligence.
An unthinking and unquestioning acceptance of something that cannot be proven (or unproven) is - in my opinion - a misuse of our thinking capacity. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 12:48 - Jul 29 with 3319 views | franniesTache |
There's nothing intrinsically right or left wing about any religion, the political narrative comes from how people impose it.
The bible and koran both talk about helping people in poverty, being mindful of those around you and being accepting, they talk about helping disabled people and the displaced, and encourage re-distribution of wealth and positive contributions to society. All those can be called left wing.
They also talk about women being lesser than men, preach homophobia and bigotry towards other religious groups, as well as encouraging structures and hierarchies that can be aligned to slavery. All those can be called right wing.
But neither stance is correct to what religion is to people on a personal level, it's just that those who want to use it as a useful tool will pick up on the bit that fits their narrative.
Personally i have no particular issue in people following their religion so long as they don't impose it on others and it doesn't negatively impact anyone's choice of lifestyle.
Britain is after all a secular country, and to call it a "christian country" these days is as ridiculous as to call it a "muslim country".
That is where we differ from america who are effectively moving towards becoming a theocracy of sorts, the christian saudi if you will.
The problem is a lot of our right wing politics is lifted from the american right, so ideas about the importance of religion has come with it, despite it not being true of our country |  | | |
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| Religion and the far right on 14:35 - Jul 29 with 3248 views | kentsouthampton |
41% of all the Farage rioters had abuse convictions, had coercive control convictions, woman beating convictions and stalking convictions, the irony of a mob made up of nearly half sex pests protesting perceived sex pests. |  | | |
| Religion and the far right on 18:33 - Jul 29 with 3161 views | Bazza |
| Religion and the far right on 14:35 - Jul 29 by kentsouthampton |
41% of all the Farage rioters had abuse convictions, had coercive control convictions, woman beating convictions and stalking convictions, the irony of a mob made up of nearly half sex pests protesting perceived sex pests. |
Farage rioters- what nonsense
Just had to squeeze that silly comment into a previously sensible debate. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 19:20 - Jul 29 with 3140 views | mushinexile |
| Religion and the far right on 14:35 - Jul 29 by kentsouthampton |
41% of all the Farage rioters had abuse convictions, had coercive control convictions, woman beating convictions and stalking convictions, the irony of a mob made up of nearly half sex pests protesting perceived sex pests. |
Good ole boys as they call them Stateside. | |
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| Religion and the far right on 08:43 - Jul 30 with 3009 views | kentsouthampton |
| Religion and the far right on 19:20 - Jul 29 by mushinexile |
Good ole boys as they call them Stateside. |
British sex pests, best sex pests in the world.. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 08:44 - Jul 30 with 3001 views | kentsouthampton |
| Religion and the far right on 18:33 - Jul 29 by Bazza |
Farage rioters- what nonsense
Just had to squeeze that silly comment into a previously sensible debate. |
It's what they are known as right across the internet noddy. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 10:40 - Jul 30 with 2942 views | saint901 |
There is a media narrative that is persistently wrong and is perhaps deliberating contributing to the problem here.
How many times do we read that a "muslim attacker" or a "christian attacker" are involved in some fracas or more serious crime?
The truth is that no child is born "muslim" or "christian". Babies have no thinking ability beyond basic survival and are incapable of understanding the principles behind the philosophies labelled as above.
It is the parents who seek to impose upon their children those values they have selected from the philosophies and persuade/coerce/force their children to adopt them fully or partially.
The media may of course be using shorthand in referring to a "muslim/christian attacker" when what they mean is somebody who volunteers that they follow a certain philosophy carrying those labels. However, labels matter and in my view the media is being provocative - sometimes deliberately so - and that this plays into the hands of those who see the potential to recruit believers.
There are of course some individuals who become totally seduced by a thought system that carries the above labels. They become in the words of the media "radicalised". In media speak this means that said person has adopted a belief that they are justified in any action they take because that is what their "god" wants them to do. I've discussed elsewhere the ridiculous notion that any such "god" can be interpreted by a human and words put in a book which are the absolute truth.
The problem is really that unscrupulous power seekers are willing to use any and all levers to motivate people for their own benefit.
It's perhaps historical accident that the approach of the "left" side of politics has generally been to call out religion as "false" - in order of course to reduce the influence of religious leaders - whereas the "right" sees religion as an ally whilst simultaneously encouraging believers to do things that their particular philosophy says should not happen.
Which leads us to a place where reconciling political and religious philosophies becomes more difficult and perhaps uncomfortable for individuals who then look to "leaders" to make a decision for them. Thus proving that politicians and others can use this to manipulate others.
I would again distinguish faith from religion - I think these are very different - even though I still struggle to find a definition of faith that captures all that I think it is. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 12:17 - Jul 30 with 2884 views | kentsouthampton |
The media use dog whistles to give a certain section of the populace someone to hate. Farage will trash the economy and the country, his supporters know this, they don't care as long as he hurts the people they hate.
The minute I start irrationally hating people because of their religion or the colour of their skin, I'll ponder where my life went so wrong and I'll seek professional help. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 12:40 - Jul 30 with 2858 views | saint901 |
| Religion and the far right on 12:17 - Jul 30 by kentsouthampton |
The media use dog whistles to give a certain section of the populace someone to hate. Farage will trash the economy and the country, his supporters know this, they don't care as long as he hurts the people they hate.
The minute I start irrationally hating people because of their religion or the colour of their skin, I'll ponder where my life went so wrong and I'll seek professional help. |
Agreed on all of that. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 12:44 - Jul 30 with 2852 views | franniesTache |
| Religion and the far right on 12:17 - Jul 30 by kentsouthampton |
The media use dog whistles to give a certain section of the populace someone to hate. Farage will trash the economy and the country, his supporters know this, they don't care as long as he hurts the people they hate.
The minute I start irrationally hating people because of their religion or the colour of their skin, I'll ponder where my life went so wrong and I'll seek professional help. |
It's been the same my whole life, whether it was people from the carribean, people from the indian sub continent, polish people, romanians, "muslims" or whoever, the narrative and hate have always been the same.
But the reality is I grew up in a city that was a dock town built on immigration, i lived in areas which were multicultural before multiculturalism was a word people used, i learnt to swear in loads of different languages, got food from local gurdwara's, went to gigs at the carribean club, drunk polish vodka and played football with polish lads and had muslim, sikh and all other kinds of religious mates.
Their lies and hate always crumble when people live with people from other backgrounds, because we're all remarkably similar and just trying to get on with life | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 14:50 - Jul 30 with 2783 views | saint901 |
Again correct.
I get that many people in society are angry at their situation and want to blame somebody. suspect that they need only the slightest excuse to vent their anger and often it's the police in the firing line. (I also think that often the police tactics provoke reaction).
So when I see such people, my anger is directed toward those manipulating them by whatever means. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 15:36 - Jul 30 with 2753 views | Bazza |
| Religion and the far right on 12:17 - Jul 30 by kentsouthampton |
The media use dog whistles to give a certain section of the populace someone to hate. Farage will trash the economy and the country, his supporters know this, they don't care as long as he hurts the people they hate.
The minute I start irrationally hating people because of their religion or the colour of their skin, I'll ponder where my life went so wrong and I'll seek professional help. |
'Farage will trash the economy'
'his supporters know this', ' he hurts people they hate'
More complete nonsense, you probably should get professional help now with all the hatred you are carrying.
Maybe you are getting confused with the far right such as Tommy Robinson. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 15:47 - Jul 30 with 2748 views | Southamptonfan |
| Religion and the far right on 12:44 - Jul 30 by franniesTache |
It's been the same my whole life, whether it was people from the carribean, people from the indian sub continent, polish people, romanians, "muslims" or whoever, the narrative and hate have always been the same.
But the reality is I grew up in a city that was a dock town built on immigration, i lived in areas which were multicultural before multiculturalism was a word people used, i learnt to swear in loads of different languages, got food from local gurdwara's, went to gigs at the carribean club, drunk polish vodka and played football with polish lads and had muslim, sikh and all other kinds of religious mates.
Their lies and hate always crumble when people live with people from other backgrounds, because we're all remarkably similar and just trying to get on with life |
I absolutely agree with what you are saying in that there are good and bad in every society, every religion, every community. I am sure we have met all sorts from all walks of life.
But successive governments are hopeless at helping with cohesion. They help create the "hate" by doing things such as putting asylum seekers in hotels (people who have presumably never paid into the system), yet British homeless people are left on the streets. How is that fair? If we put up people in hotels as a caring nation, then do it for all people without homes, not just foreign ones. Or alternatively, you don't put anyone up in hotels. Governments create narratives themselves and of course the media jump on it. [Post edited 30 Jul 15:50]
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| Religion and the far right on 16:00 - Jul 30 with 2714 views | franniesTache |
| Religion and the far right on 15:36 - Jul 30 by Bazza |
'Farage will trash the economy'
'his supporters know this', ' he hurts people they hate'
More complete nonsense, you probably should get professional help now with all the hatred you are carrying.
Maybe you are getting confused with the far right such as Tommy Robinson. |
I'm not really sure what tommy robinson or the far right has to do with the statement that Farage will crash the economy.
The economic policies outlined by reform would almost certainly tank the UK economy and lead to a sell off of the NHS.
That's not a particularly controversial statement, and the second part is his own stated aim which he is on record as saying multiple times.
Faragism is very much chicago school economics in line with the most free market absolutionist policies around, similar to what Truss tried, and is likely to have similar impacts. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 16:01 - Jul 30 with 2708 views | franniesTache |
| Religion and the far right on 15:47 - Jul 30 by Southamptonfan |
I absolutely agree with what you are saying in that there are good and bad in every society, every religion, every community. I am sure we have met all sorts from all walks of life.
But successive governments are hopeless at helping with cohesion. They help create the "hate" by doing things such as putting asylum seekers in hotels (people who have presumably never paid into the system), yet British homeless people are left on the streets. How is that fair? If we put up people in hotels as a caring nation, then do it for all people without homes, not just foreign ones. Or alternatively, you don't put anyone up in hotels. Governments create narratives themselves and of course the media jump on it. [Post edited 30 Jul 15:50]
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I really like what finland did with homelessness, they've effectively solved it by just housing everyone. I wish more governments would follow their model | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 16:06 - Jul 30 with 2705 views | Joiedevivre |
| Religion and the far right on 15:36 - Jul 30 by Bazza |
'Farage will trash the economy'
'his supporters know this', ' he hurts people they hate'
More complete nonsense, you probably should get professional help now with all the hatred you are carrying.
Maybe you are getting confused with the far right such as Tommy Robinson. |
I haven’t and don’t plan on voting Reform, but I am right wing / small c conservative. What’s keeping me away mostly - apart from a dislike of Farage’s personality and weirdly cultish following - is the fact I can’t take his manifesto seriously. Do you deem him to be fiscally conservative?
All I see is the right wing version of magic money tree Corbyn. Offering the goodies of the right but with little backup to pay for it, unless you believe net zero will bring in just as much as he says. Most of the tab is riding on this unstable structure. I wouldn’t trust them with the economy. | | | |
| Religion and the far right on 16:18 - Jul 30 with 2688 views | Southamptonfan |
| Religion and the far right on 16:01 - Jul 30 by franniesTache |
I really like what finland did with homelessness, they've effectively solved it by just housing everyone. I wish more governments would follow their model |
Yep, but the population of Finland is only 5 million. We can't afford to do it with 70 million people (with too high a percentage of that population needing a home), so much so that the government almost took away benefits from disabled people. Yet, non British people get a hotel for free. It is and does cause many tensions, especially if you are disabled, thinking why should I lose money to give to able people who have just arrived in the country. Or pensioners of course losing their winter fuel payment. [Post edited 30 Jul 16:21]
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| Religion and the far right on 17:02 - Jul 30 with 2646 views | mushinexile |
| Religion and the far right on 12:44 - Jul 30 by franniesTache |
It's been the same my whole life, whether it was people from the carribean, people from the indian sub continent, polish people, romanians, "muslims" or whoever, the narrative and hate have always been the same.
But the reality is I grew up in a city that was a dock town built on immigration, i lived in areas which were multicultural before multiculturalism was a word people used, i learnt to swear in loads of different languages, got food from local gurdwara's, went to gigs at the carribean club, drunk polish vodka and played football with polish lads and had muslim, sikh and all other kinds of religious mates.
Their lies and hate always crumble when people live with people from other backgrounds, because we're all remarkably similar and just trying to get on with life |
When I came back to Southampton in the mid eighties, I lived in Six Dials, Brintons Road. All human life was there and all humanity, too. I fixed people's cars on the street for beer money and had good times there. We had Nazis and pretty girls who played flutes who were so up themselves you'd cry but we had rastas, Hell's Angels, cooperatives and wholefood shops. Fun times, fondly remembered | |
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