| Sam Field - Centre Back 09:27 - Aug 3 with 5581 views | DubaiR |
For me think he suits CB better, always looked assured and more physical at centre back. I think the game bypasses him in midfield, I know ore season but Brentford just played through him. With cook and JCS always injured, morrison and field at centre back. |  | | |  |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:32 - Aug 3 with 2428 views | Logman |
I want to see the centre backs doing the job they are paid to do. Not just one of them but 4 of them, and Sam Field as the CDM in front of the back four. Other 2 CMs' can be a toss up between Varane, Morgan, Chair, Madsen and Vale. |  | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:43 - Aug 3 with 2401 views | 1JD |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 15:18 - Aug 3 by Hunterhoop |
But earlier you have said it is specifically the “6” role where we need someone to reduced, turn, and play forward. That is Varane’s position. When Field plays alongside Varane, Field plays as the “8” effectively. He gets about and covers more ground, and it’s Varane who sits.
So either we need a better 6 than Varane who is more of the QB passer, you’re looking for. OR we don’t play a shape where your 6 does that and you ask the other central midfielder (let’s call it an 8 for now). If that is the case and the 6 is there to be a shield and not a turn and play forward role, then Field does that job better than Varane.
The issue is our inability to play the ball forward well. I don’t think you solve that by dropping the best tackler, and physical midfielder with the legs to get about the pitch. You sign a better ball player than the bloke you are asking to be the main ball player, just like we did by binning Dozzell and bringing in Varane.
What you’re actually doing is making a strong case to sell Varane and sign and pick a better ball player.
However, I personally think Varane can and will develop into a decent forward passer with more time in the league. I’d play Varane at 6, ask him to take it on the turn and play forward, and I would have Field alongside him doing the running, tackling, competing, and have him in the side for his superb reading of the game when the oppo have it.
If Varane can’t do that passing role, sell him and try to sign someone who can. [Post edited 3 Aug 15:38]
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Well, I do think the #6 role is the single most important position in a team that wants to play passing football. And Varane - whilst excellent defensively like Field - also comes up short. I don’t see him suddenly gaining that part of his game, as most ball-playing DCMs have it naturally, and it’s extremely hard to coach it. He may go from a 5 out of 10, to a 6 or 7. But for our team to be successful playing out and playing through, it needs someone to excel at that deep playing making role.
The number 8 is also important in this style of play as they can’t just be a by stander and must also drop deep and provide an option. So all in all, I don’t like any of our CM options; and if we are to truly execute a passing style, for me it needs a root and branch re-make. As it has done for some time. Until it is fixed, I would personally reign in the so-called passing out the back, as the DOF is not creating a squad capable of executing again his stated vision. Which is another topic, but related. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 17:08 - Aug 3 with 2336 views | derbyhoop |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 14:48 - Aug 3 by 1JD |
I don’t disagree that the CM pairing is important.
And Field could still play a role as a box to box 8, a role I have quite liked him playing in recent times, as his energy, legs, and stamina (and goals) have worked well.
The issue is when you play Varane and Field. Neither of whom can turn on the ball and get this team playing. And Varane has pretty much nailed the #6 position, and I don’t believe you can play Field alongside him. We’ve done that loads and it’s drab.
So for me Field’s starting spot in this side - if it is to progress with its stated passing game - is at stake, as I think there are better (and needed) upgrades in that 8 role alongside Varane.
That’s where a new signing would come in and play. Or possibly Morgan takes it. Can’t see Madsen having the all round CM game needed there. |
When Varane and Field play together, it is Varane as a #6 and Field as an #8. Generally, its worked OK.
If we need to drop Field then who is the alternative. Not convinced about Morgan, who's dropped off after a flying start. Tuck has never played 1st team. Not Vale, nor Madsen. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 17:19 - Aug 3 with 2309 views | DubaiR |
Nice to see some balanced views rather than just being called an idiot as it started | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 18:33 - Aug 3 with 2197 views | Hunterhoop |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:43 - Aug 3 by 1JD |
Well, I do think the #6 role is the single most important position in a team that wants to play passing football. And Varane - whilst excellent defensively like Field - also comes up short. I don’t see him suddenly gaining that part of his game, as most ball-playing DCMs have it naturally, and it’s extremely hard to coach it. He may go from a 5 out of 10, to a 6 or 7. But for our team to be successful playing out and playing through, it needs someone to excel at that deep playing making role.
The number 8 is also important in this style of play as they can’t just be a by stander and must also drop deep and provide an option. So all in all, I don’t like any of our CM options; and if we are to truly execute a passing style, for me it needs a root and branch re-make. As it has done for some time. Until it is fixed, I would personally reign in the so-called passing out the back, as the DOF is not creating a squad capable of executing again his stated vision. Which is another topic, but related. |
I agree with you on most of this.
I think this gets to the crux of the issue I was getting at in those first few questions in my first post.
Is the game model (4231 and play out from the back) the right model for the squad we have and the type of players we can sign, and for a club with our budget (3rd lowest in the league according Nourry)?
To me it feels like we’re trying to run before we can walk. It feels too ambitious. Last season we saw how, when we went pragmatic (433 and more direct with 3 genuine central midfielders, target man in Frey up top not Celar), we suddenly were competetive, put a great run together, and ran up the league.
Are we trying to do something on fast forward due to someone’s own personal timeframes?
I think we need to start winning games, change perceptions in the league and not be seen as “soft”, and start finishing higher up the league, maybe even top half, before we try to become a 4231, ball out from the keeper through the lines on the deck, type side. It’s a massive leap from the way we have played when we have managed results these past two years.
Maybe Stephan can get the team to make the leap in a way Cifuentes couldn’t. I have my doubts. I think he’s realise the same thing Cifuentes was forced to come to terms with.
Nourry has made an excellent point about the sales value of certain positions, and that the club have identified ball playing number “6” as a position which is attractive to Prem clubs with high sale value. Okay, great.
But has no one else in the Championship realised this? Are they all stupid? Blackburn sold Wharton, as the case study. And if we assume a few other clubs have realised this, how will we be able to compete with them in signing the 18-21 yr olds who in 2-3 years time could become a player with high sale value into the Prem? We just won’t be able to compete and sign these players. That means developing them. Tuck is a great case in point? Perhaps he’ll make it, but it’s bloody hard to develop that sort of player.
I’d take a step back and ask a bigger picture question. In 3-5 years will everyone in the Prem be playing out from the back with a QB styled “6” and trying to play the ball through the lines? Could the game have moved on? Is it even the right shape and player identification model to follow?
You need to balance the short and long term, like you balance youth and wisdom, experience and freshness, proven quality and potential.
I’m not sure our squad is, or realistically can be, one that will nail successfully the game model of playing out from the back. Whereas Cifuentes showed us we can be highly effective when playing more pragmatically. That’s not Ainsworth ball, just pragmatic.
That would be the approach or “game model” i’d look to implement and build on, and potentially evolve from in 2 seasons’ time if we’re top half by then.
QPR don’t like doing things slowly, and neither does Nourry, but I fear our attempt to jump a few steps forward and pat ourselves on the back for doing so (even before we’ve completed it) is what is keeping us anchored where we are. [Post edited 3 Aug 18:53]
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 22:12 - Aug 3 with 1976 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 10:00 - Aug 3 by gazza1 |
And whom will play midfield doing Field's job?? if he is CB. |
Presumably the 'who' missing from this ungrammatical sentence!
(No charge!) |  |
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 23:43 - Aug 3 with 1924 views | mart_Goblin |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 18:33 - Aug 3 by Hunterhoop |
I agree with you on most of this.
I think this gets to the crux of the issue I was getting at in those first few questions in my first post.
Is the game model (4231 and play out from the back) the right model for the squad we have and the type of players we can sign, and for a club with our budget (3rd lowest in the league according Nourry)?
To me it feels like we’re trying to run before we can walk. It feels too ambitious. Last season we saw how, when we went pragmatic (433 and more direct with 3 genuine central midfielders, target man in Frey up top not Celar), we suddenly were competetive, put a great run together, and ran up the league.
Are we trying to do something on fast forward due to someone’s own personal timeframes?
I think we need to start winning games, change perceptions in the league and not be seen as “soft”, and start finishing higher up the league, maybe even top half, before we try to become a 4231, ball out from the keeper through the lines on the deck, type side. It’s a massive leap from the way we have played when we have managed results these past two years.
Maybe Stephan can get the team to make the leap in a way Cifuentes couldn’t. I have my doubts. I think he’s realise the same thing Cifuentes was forced to come to terms with.
Nourry has made an excellent point about the sales value of certain positions, and that the club have identified ball playing number “6” as a position which is attractive to Prem clubs with high sale value. Okay, great.
But has no one else in the Championship realised this? Are they all stupid? Blackburn sold Wharton, as the case study. And if we assume a few other clubs have realised this, how will we be able to compete with them in signing the 18-21 yr olds who in 2-3 years time could become a player with high sale value into the Prem? We just won’t be able to compete and sign these players. That means developing them. Tuck is a great case in point? Perhaps he’ll make it, but it’s bloody hard to develop that sort of player.
I’d take a step back and ask a bigger picture question. In 3-5 years will everyone in the Prem be playing out from the back with a QB styled “6” and trying to play the ball through the lines? Could the game have moved on? Is it even the right shape and player identification model to follow?
You need to balance the short and long term, like you balance youth and wisdom, experience and freshness, proven quality and potential.
I’m not sure our squad is, or realistically can be, one that will nail successfully the game model of playing out from the back. Whereas Cifuentes showed us we can be highly effective when playing more pragmatically. That’s not Ainsworth ball, just pragmatic.
That would be the approach or “game model” i’d look to implement and build on, and potentially evolve from in 2 seasons’ time if we’re top half by then.
QPR don’t like doing things slowly, and neither does Nourry, but I fear our attempt to jump a few steps forward and pat ourselves on the back for doing so (even before we’ve completed it) is what is keeping us anchored where we are. [Post edited 3 Aug 18:53]
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Great post this.
I think it links in part to the cracking final question asked from the floor at the fans forum on Tuesday .
If Plan A fails, is there a plan B and what is it ?
Been saying for ages that we just don’t have the personnel to implement the ‘methodology’ put into place.
Who’d be my first names on the team sheet? Chair of course .
Then who ?
Dunne , Field ,Varane and with JCS forever injured , Cook?
But these players probably struggle the most with the club ethos and have done for some time .
These players are great in their own way but we are asking them to start the patterns of play needed to be competitive and win matches .
And it’s a tough watch
It’s not their fault .
We have players like Dembele and Poku , Smyth too and Saito prior, glued to the touch line and receiving the ball with their back to goal , with a defender right up the back of them with nowhere to go but back again . And back and across it goes , too slowly with no one in midfield creating any space at all.
With 1 exception. Morgan , who has got a little bit of clog on here in the last 24 hours , is the one who occasionally finds a hole and him and Dunne can get out down the right. He’s not been great , but he’s been the best of the most average bunch in the last 2 games at getting us vaguely up the pitch . Problem is , his battery still dies after an hour . That has to improve .
My point overall being that what Hunter alluded too is spot on.
We don’t have the players yet . And as someone else said earlier , we won’t have for some time .
So why are we trying to force this way of playing and why is yet another head coach agreeing to this nonsense ? Well , of course he’d expect a striker , any striker , to be available occasionally.
But even then this bunch of ‘centre forwards’ are the most average in the division and even if they were world beaters , we wouldn’t create chances for them anyway.
I said it earlier this week but I do fear we are trying to prepare for tomorrow , whilst taking our eye off of today .
No use signing loads of players who will be ready in 2 to 3 seasons, when their value will be significantly lower with the club in league 1 or worse .
I genuinely hope I’m wrong about that , but I am worried here.
Another season..and another squad not fit for purpose. [Post edited 3 Aug 23:46]
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 08:56 - Aug 4 with 1751 views | bullshootr |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 22:12 - Aug 3 by stainrods_elbow |
Presumably the 'who' missing from this ungrammatical sentence!
(No charge!) |
No charge!
Is your battery running low? | | | |
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 09:05 - Aug 4 with 1725 views | TheChef |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 10:27 - Aug 3 by DubaiR |
I wasn't writing him off, just think makes for a better centre back. Personally dont think he is a great holding midfielder player.
As to who would play centre mid personally varane, Morgan and liked chair in there. Chair plays on the half turn and gets us forward. Also think that will be where benni naturally ends up and he has a presence about him |
I mean if he's not a great holding midfield player, then who in our squad is?
I assume you've watched QPR play football over the last three or four seasons?
Give me strength. |  |
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 15:19 - Aug 4 with 1517 views | francisbowles |
In the absence of JCS and with Akindelini probably not ready for a regular place, I think Sam is our best option at left centre back, with Morrison on the right. I'd like a left footer in midfield too. Vale is a leftie, we could try him there otherwise we could get Colback back. I'd definitely have a fit JV in the team. He was improving week on week last season and should continue to do so. Mbengue is a right footed option as a defensive anchor in midfield. All of those choices for midfield are fairly comfortable with the ball. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 15:45 - Aug 4 with 1447 views | Monkey_Roots |
I'll live with everything exactly the way it is, EXCEPT the need for a striker - this is the only position that i'm interested in now, we'll make do with what we have everywhere else on the pitch, but if we don't score goals we won't win games. |  | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:04 - Aug 4 with 1382 views | Stainrod |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 23:43 - Aug 3 by mart_Goblin |
Great post this.
I think it links in part to the cracking final question asked from the floor at the fans forum on Tuesday .
If Plan A fails, is there a plan B and what is it ?
Been saying for ages that we just don’t have the personnel to implement the ‘methodology’ put into place.
Who’d be my first names on the team sheet? Chair of course .
Then who ?
Dunne , Field ,Varane and with JCS forever injured , Cook?
But these players probably struggle the most with the club ethos and have done for some time .
These players are great in their own way but we are asking them to start the patterns of play needed to be competitive and win matches .
And it’s a tough watch
It’s not their fault .
We have players like Dembele and Poku , Smyth too and Saito prior, glued to the touch line and receiving the ball with their back to goal , with a defender right up the back of them with nowhere to go but back again . And back and across it goes , too slowly with no one in midfield creating any space at all.
With 1 exception. Morgan , who has got a little bit of clog on here in the last 24 hours , is the one who occasionally finds a hole and him and Dunne can get out down the right. He’s not been great , but he’s been the best of the most average bunch in the last 2 games at getting us vaguely up the pitch . Problem is , his battery still dies after an hour . That has to improve .
My point overall being that what Hunter alluded too is spot on.
We don’t have the players yet . And as someone else said earlier , we won’t have for some time .
So why are we trying to force this way of playing and why is yet another head coach agreeing to this nonsense ? Well , of course he’d expect a striker , any striker , to be available occasionally.
But even then this bunch of ‘centre forwards’ are the most average in the division and even if they were world beaters , we wouldn’t create chances for them anyway.
I said it earlier this week but I do fear we are trying to prepare for tomorrow , whilst taking our eye off of today .
No use signing loads of players who will be ready in 2 to 3 seasons, when their value will be significantly lower with the club in league 1 or worse .
I genuinely hope I’m wrong about that , but I am worried here.
Another season..and another squad not fit for purpose. [Post edited 3 Aug 23:46]
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Fair comments.
But guess its a vicious circle: as you say, we are not ready to play through the lines due to the limitations of key players, and we can't afford players who can do that; but equally, if we don't instil that system, we are not going to develop players we can sell for big sums because no Premier League side is going to buy players who play hoof ball (or a variant of such). So we probably have to persevere with the system, but pragmatically as with Marti; sometimes we will need to go more direct. We will also need to play our full back deeper if we are not going to be ripped apart down the wings on a regular basis, which again slightly hinders our attempts to play free flowing football which develops players to do it the "right" way. In fairness to the club they face a really tricky balancing act, given our survival in this division is far from nailed on. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:19 - Aug 4 with 1330 views | DubaiR |
No haven't watched a single game, haven't been paid to play or manage football and have no clue what i'm on about! | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 09:13 - Aug 5 with 1165 views | TheChef |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:19 - Aug 4 by DubaiR |
No haven't watched a single game, haven't been paid to play or manage football and have no clue what i'm on about! |
I mean I do take your point about Field at CB, and he can do a job there. But that takes away from the role he performs for us in midfield.
Maybe if we can find a Varane equivalent to er, play alongside Varane, then Field would probably get less game time. But until then, when Field is not playing, usually he is sorely missed. | |
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| Sam Field - Centre Back on 10:00 - Aug 5 with 1093 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
LfW: Cifuentes is a traitorous slag!
Also LfW: We should fck Sam Field off. |  | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 11:00 - Aug 5 with 1022 views | francisbowles |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 10:00 - Aug 5 by BazzaInTheLoft |
LfW: Cifuentes is a traitorous slag!
Also LfW: We should fck Sam Field off. |
Baz I was/am a Marti fan and think he didn't really do much wrong.
I happen to believe that Sam would be more effective in the left centre back roll, especially as we can't seem to get JCS on the pitch anytime soon. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 11:09 - Aug 5 with 1007 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 11:00 - Aug 5 by francisbowles |
Baz I was/am a Marti fan and think he didn't really do much wrong.
I happen to believe that Sam would be more effective in the left centre back roll, especially as we can't seem to get JCS on the pitch anytime soon. |
Sorry FB, I was referring those who are saying he should leave / be dropped. Was a comment on loyalty only being demanded one way. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 15:35 - Aug 5 with 841 views | francisbowles |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 11:09 - Aug 5 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Sorry FB, I was referring those who are saying he should leave / be dropped. Was a comment on loyalty only being demanded one way. |
👍😁 | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:05 - Aug 5 with 810 views | JamesB1979 |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 10:00 - Aug 5 by BazzaInTheLoft |
LfW: Cifuentes is a traitorous slag!
Also LfW: We should fck Sam Field off. |
I don’t think anyone has said that on this thread 😉 | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:07 - Aug 5 with 808 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:05 - Aug 5 by JamesB1979 |
I don’t think anyone has said that on this thread 😉 |
I know, I was exaggerating and deliberately misinterpreting things to make a point that suites me.
It's pretty common. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:11 - Aug 5 with 801 views | JamesB1979 |
Field is pretty well liked on here and at games in my view. Not sure about twitter but not on that. | | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 16:41 - Aug 5 with 761 views | CateLeBonR |
It’s good to know he can play there if needed but I wouldn’t suggest he should play there permanently. |  | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 03:47 - Aug 6 with 592 views | Match82 |
Your centre midfield 2 (or 3) players need collectively to be able to break up attacks, protect the back four, retain possession and create/enable attacking chances. Ideally you've got 3 all rounders in a Gerrard mould as someone referred to earlier, or even a Faurlin/Rowlands type player who can do a bit of everything well. If you don't have that, and we don't, you need to still have the sum of all the parts get the job done. If there's a couple of aspects of Fields game that aren't above average, you need to play him with someone that complements that, and vice versa.
Considering how many players we have capable of doing the "attacking" bits, but incapable of the defending bits, he's going to have a big part to play this season. If we had 2 or 3 other "all round" centre midfielders then I might feel differently about his importance and his limitations, but we don't. |  | | |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 21:08 - Aug 6 with 386 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Sam Field - Centre Back on 17:08 - Aug 3 by derbyhoop |
When Varane and Field play together, it is Varane as a #6 and Field as an #8. Generally, its worked OK.
If we need to drop Field then who is the alternative. Not convinced about Morgan, who's dropped off after a flying start. Tuck has never played 1st team. Not Vale, nor Madsen. |
I've never been fully convinced by Field, though he's consistent at what he does, and currently feel even less so by Varane, who has a lot of developing to do, even if he has some makings. I suppose they're both 'where we are' (and why we are where we are). | |
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