| Stadium company - future threats 13:54 - May 24 with 5214 views | pioneer |
Its looking like Hornets will be 'relegated' to the lowest level of RL next season - a division that will have all mickey mouse teams from no RL parts of the country but for one other (probably Oldham).
Even with taditional rugby league opponents this year they are struggling on 300 crowds and there seems to be some recognition among their fans that they will not be able to afford playing at Spotland next season.
Aas a sole tenenant/part owner this would probably mean costs would increase considerably (at best the stadium company revenue would be reduced by a fair amount).
Also not sure what it would mean for the Rugby League's ownership of an equal share in the ground.
I hope the board are planning the future with some contingencies in place - or we could be caught with our pants down |  | | |  |
| Stadium company - future threats on 14:06 - May 24 with 3855 views | Yorkshire_Dale |
Where's Vespa.......?
He knows everything Hornets. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 15:09 - May 24 with 3782 views | dingdangblue |
Did anyone ever publish the amount the Rfl lent Hornets in exchange for their shares in Spotland Stadium? Do the Rfl now contribute towards the upkeep of the Stadium? When this all came out at the fans forum a few years back I couldnt believe that dale just let hornets get away with doing what they'd done. Dale shouldve been given 1st option to those shares. What Hornets did mustve been illegal. |  |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 15:29 - May 24 with 3747 views | TalkingSutty |
I can envisage a future of lower division football clubs having to groundshare, it makes sense when you think about it.
A few years ago ideas circulated about building a new stadium at Kingsway for Rochdale and Oldham to share, there was also a suggestion of Dale, Latics and bURY all merging and reforming as North Manchester football club or Rochbury Athletic FC.
Obviously this would mean starting at the bottom end of the pyramid but if it secured the long term future of our clubs and enabled us to compete at a higher level (eventually) would it be worth considering?
The way the economy is going and the perilous state of football finances, i wouldnt instantly dismiss the suggestions !! |  | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 15:29 - May 24 with 3748 views | judd |
Hornets stayed over in South Wales last Saturday night. |  |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 15:37 - May 24 with 3724 views | dingdangblue |
| Stadium company - future threats on 15:29 - May 24 by judd |
Hornets stayed over in South Wales last Saturday night. |
There are some cracking camp sites in South Wales. | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 15:38 - May 24 with 3720 views | judd |
| Stadium company - future threats on 15:37 - May 24 by dingdangblue |
There are some cracking camp sites in South Wales. |
I'm not so sure calling 'em poofters will help. | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 16:48 - May 24 with 3630 views | pioneer |
| Stadium company - future threats on 15:29 - May 24 by judd |
Hornets stayed over in South Wales last Saturday night. |
The league position is problematic given the reoganisation of the RFL below super league nest season. The top four from Hornets current division will be 'promoted' to an expanded championship division. The rest will be left in championship one with expansion teams (currently Northampton, a completely new club, Hemel Hempstead, and some others to be nominated by RFL). Given Hornets are outside the top 4 and stuggling to keep within catching distance, and are losing to even the poorer teams in their division, it looks like they will be one of two traditional (northern) teams to miss out on 'promotion'. As it stands the new bottom division would be Horents, Oldham and a bunch of make believe teams from Wales (North and South subbject to any future relocations) London, Gateshead, Hemel Hampstead, South London and Northampton (others to be added). Few of these teams bring substantial away following and few Rochdale folk show interest in watching games against these mickey mouse teams.
So a mid table position is potentially disasterous.
Yes the board scraped the finanical barrel to meet the coaches request to stay ovenight in south wales. The coach is also a non-elected member of the board so I suppose you could say he was wearing (at least) two hats. But I suspect he has little interest in the long term sustainability of the team. He has significant media interests and other positions in rugby league coaching as well as any employment he may have outside of the game. So his interests are short term and immediate (anything that might help him get a result in south wales) while the Board's main interest would seem to be long term survival.
It would be good to know what the financial impact would be on the stadium company of Hornets not playing at Spotland, boith in terms of changes in revenues, costs and the distribution of responsibility for costs. As a sole tennant it would seem on the face of it that we would be responsible for the entire costs of the stadium, unless the stadium company was to run at a loss. | | | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 16:59 - May 24 with 3612 views | 442Dale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 15:29 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
I can envisage a future of lower division football clubs having to groundshare, it makes sense when you think about it.
A few years ago ideas circulated about building a new stadium at Kingsway for Rochdale and Oldham to share, there was also a suggestion of Dale, Latics and bURY all merging and reforming as North Manchester football club or Rochbury Athletic FC.
Obviously this would mean starting at the bottom end of the pyramid but if it secured the long term future of our clubs and enabled us to compete at a higher level (eventually) would it be worth considering?
The way the economy is going and the perilous state of football finances, i wouldnt instantly dismiss the suggestions !! |
Would think the majority of football fans would prefer their clubs to go bust and start at the very bottom, a la Chester and Halifax, than support a merger team.
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| Stadium company - future threats (n/t) on 18:28 - May 24 with 3496 views | TalkingSutty |
| Stadium company - future threats on 16:59 - May 24 by 442Dale |
Would think the majority of football fans would prefer their clubs to go bust and start at the very bottom, a la Chester and Halifax, than support a merger team.
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| Stadium company - future threats on 18:39 - May 24 with 3480 views | TalkingSutty |
| Stadium company - future threats on 16:59 - May 24 by 442Dale |
Would think the majority of football fans would prefer their clubs to go bust and start at the very bottom, a la Chester and Halifax, than support a merger team.
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I was thinking more of financing the day to day costs of running a stadium, paying players/staff etc, it was the final nail in the coffin for Darlington. Looking at the dwindling crowds at the 3 local clubs, there isnt much to be optimistic about.
It would be interesting if we could look 20 years into the future and see how many clubs financially implode because i think unless drastic action is taken in the lower leagues that will be the reality.
I am in the small minority, amalgamating 2 or 3 local teams and moving into a new stadium would be something i would embrace rather than seeing the club eventually go bust.
We need a sugar daddy, or Dale fans with very deep pockets willing to invest in the club !! | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 18:47 - May 24 with 3467 views | 442Dale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 18:39 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
I was thinking more of financing the day to day costs of running a stadium, paying players/staff etc, it was the final nail in the coffin for Darlington. Looking at the dwindling crowds at the 3 local clubs, there isnt much to be optimistic about.
It would be interesting if we could look 20 years into the future and see how many clubs financially implode because i think unless drastic action is taken in the lower leagues that will be the reality.
I am in the small minority, amalgamating 2 or 3 local teams and moving into a new stadium would be something i would embrace rather than seeing the club eventually go bust.
We need a sugar daddy, or Dale fans with very deep pockets willing to invest in the club !! |
But by combining with other clubs it will have gone bust.
I'd rather go and watch another local side than a manufactured one. The best thing that could happen if Dale ever did go down the Darlo or Chester route would be to follow their lead and continue under a new guise. Even if this meant playing in the Evo Stik First Division and groundsharing with another non league side. At least it would still be a Rochdale side. Combining resources to try and create a club that could survive and compete doesn't make much sense, we might as well beg to be United's feeder club.
Sharing a new stadium could, one day, be the future for teams. And while I'd not want to move, it has to be an option if it ever makes sense to do so. | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 18:53 - May 24 with 3457 views | ColDale |
There isn't enough clubs out there for us to combine with that would allow us to compete financially. If we merged with Oldham, Bury, Bolton, Wigan and Stockport to create a third Manc club, we'd optimistically be higher up the footballing ladder, but still at a position coming up against sides with further funds.
Darlo could well be the exception rather than the rule when it comes to new stadia. The reasons the likes of Shrewsbury and Chesterfield have moved to new grounds hasn't been with the aim of improving things for their existing supporter, it's been about boosting stadium revenue and sharing grounds would deny that happening. This is the reason why Liverpool and Everton don't want to share a ground - it will mean sharing profits. |  | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:36 - May 24 with 3397 views | TalkingSutty |
| Stadium company - future threats on 18:53 - May 24 by ColDale |
There isn't enough clubs out there for us to combine with that would allow us to compete financially. If we merged with Oldham, Bury, Bolton, Wigan and Stockport to create a third Manc club, we'd optimistically be higher up the footballing ladder, but still at a position coming up against sides with further funds.
Darlo could well be the exception rather than the rule when it comes to new stadia. The reasons the likes of Shrewsbury and Chesterfield have moved to new grounds hasn't been with the aim of improving things for their existing supporter, it's been about boosting stadium revenue and sharing grounds would deny that happening. This is the reason why Liverpool and Everton don't want to share a ground - it will mean sharing profits. |
Sharing grounds wouldnt automatically mean both teams would have to share profits though. The only thing they would have to share would be the actual running costs of the stadium, gate reciepts would go to the team playing at home on any given fixture, shirt sponsorship etc would also be a individual thing.
There are plenty of teams around Europe who seem to make groundsharing work. A typical example would be the pitch covers issue, the cost would be split down the middle. Perhaps the merging of teams is taking things too far but groundsharing makes perfect sense. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:52 - May 24 with 3362 views | D_Dale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 18:47 - May 24 by 442Dale |
But by combining with other clubs it will have gone bust.
I'd rather go and watch another local side than a manufactured one. The best thing that could happen if Dale ever did go down the Darlo or Chester route would be to follow their lead and continue under a new guise. Even if this meant playing in the Evo Stik First Division and groundsharing with another non league side. At least it would still be a Rochdale side. Combining resources to try and create a club that could survive and compete doesn't make much sense, we might as well beg to be United's feeder club.
Sharing a new stadium could, one day, be the future for teams. And while I'd not want to move, it has to be an option if it ever makes sense to do so. |
How do clubs survive at the Evo Stik level? Or even at the Conference level - little TV or similar cash, but the cost of running stadiums, travelling to away fixtures etc.
Last season, Gateshead finished 8th with an average home attendance of 843, Braintree were 12th with 896. I doubt either was backed by an oligarch, or even a very rich chairman. Possibly some of the players are part-timers (though my impression is that the likes of Jon Shaw, Gateshead's leading scorer with 32 goals, isn't paid a lot lessthan when he was at Dale). Given some of their away fixtures -Bath, Braintree, Newport - Gateshead must have travelled at least as far as Dale have to.
I don't know the relative economics, but they do suggest Dale can at least keep going for the foreseeable future.
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| Stadium company - future threats on 20:04 - May 24 with 3345 views | pl56 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:36 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
Sharing grounds wouldnt automatically mean both teams would have to share profits though. The only thing they would have to share would be the actual running costs of the stadium, gate reciepts would go to the team playing at home on any given fixture, shirt sponsorship etc would also be a individual thing.
There are plenty of teams around Europe who seem to make groundsharing work. A typical example would be the pitch covers issue, the cost would be split down the middle. Perhaps the merging of teams is taking things too far but groundsharing makes perfect sense. |
Whilst I agree that your original idea was , for me at least , quite thought provoking in terms of ground share , I think the point Col is perhaps making , and it does add another dimension to the argument , is the ability of clubs like Shrewsbury and Chesterfield to control and benefit from the availability of their ground facilities 24 hours a day , 7 days a week , 52 weeks of the year . I suspect in a bespoke ground that would offer a potentially significant income stream , and I would be interested to know just how our existing income stream (or the Stadium Company's) from wider use of the ground facilities might compare .
That does not necessarily diminish the relevance of your original post though ; it could just be that a share of potential earnings from a stadium facilities of bespoke design might just be more than the earnings from the wider use we can make from Spotland . | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:46 - May 24 with 3284 views | TalkingSutty |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:04 - May 24 by pl56 |
Whilst I agree that your original idea was , for me at least , quite thought provoking in terms of ground share , I think the point Col is perhaps making , and it does add another dimension to the argument , is the ability of clubs like Shrewsbury and Chesterfield to control and benefit from the availability of their ground facilities 24 hours a day , 7 days a week , 52 weeks of the year . I suspect in a bespoke ground that would offer a potentially significant income stream , and I would be interested to know just how our existing income stream (or the Stadium Company's) from wider use of the ground facilities might compare .
That does not necessarily diminish the relevance of your original post though ; it could just be that a share of potential earnings from a stadium facilities of bespoke design might just be more than the earnings from the wider use we can make from Spotland . |
I think the geographical location of Rochdale puts it at a disadvantage when compared to Shrewsbury and Chesterfield and generating extra income streams from the stadium.
We have a lot more competition from other clubs around Greater Manchester and Rochdale compared to the two towns mentioned is a town on its knees financially.
To tap into the numerous income streams you also need to have the right staff in place with the right knowledge and also a willingness from everybody connected to the club to maximise every opportunity. Those concepts are not something we have ever embraced as a club, the last 5 years was a golden opportunity missed !! | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:54 - May 24 with 3263 views | TVOS1907 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:46 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
I think the geographical location of Rochdale puts it at a disadvantage when compared to Shrewsbury and Chesterfield and generating extra income streams from the stadium.
We have a lot more competition from other clubs around Greater Manchester and Rochdale compared to the two towns mentioned is a town on its knees financially.
To tap into the numerous income streams you also need to have the right staff in place with the right knowledge and also a willingness from everybody connected to the club to maximise every opportunity. Those concepts are not something we have ever embraced as a club, the last 5 years was a golden opportunity missed !! |
I'm not sure there's a significant difference between the locations of Rochdale and Chesterfield, especially when you consider Chesterfield has the M1 motorway virtually on its doorstep. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 20:55 - May 24 with 3261 views | pioneer |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:46 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
I think the geographical location of Rochdale puts it at a disadvantage when compared to Shrewsbury and Chesterfield and generating extra income streams from the stadium.
We have a lot more competition from other clubs around Greater Manchester and Rochdale compared to the two towns mentioned is a town on its knees financially.
To tap into the numerous income streams you also need to have the right staff in place with the right knowledge and also a willingness from everybody connected to the club to maximise every opportunity. Those concepts are not something we have ever embraced as a club, the last 5 years was a golden opportunity missed !! |
Lets not forget we already groundshare - that is not the issue, but the form of groundsharing and the ownership structure of the stadium. Whatever happens to Hornets we ramin a minority owner of the stadium that restricts us in theory from doing what we might want to at the stadium.
The sooner we resolve the RFL ownership situation the better. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:57 - May 24 with 3258 views | pl56 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:46 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
I think the geographical location of Rochdale puts it at a disadvantage when compared to Shrewsbury and Chesterfield and generating extra income streams from the stadium.
We have a lot more competition from other clubs around Greater Manchester and Rochdale compared to the two towns mentioned is a town on its knees financially.
To tap into the numerous income streams you also need to have the right staff in place with the right knowledge and also a willingness from everybody connected to the club to maximise every opportunity. Those concepts are not something we have ever embraced as a club, the last 5 years was a golden opportunity missed !! |
I don't disagree with any of that at all ; I just think your original point about a possible ground share , for example at Kingsway , might just benefit all parties through some form of economy of scale that could market the facilities rather than the individual clubs , and just perhaps create a bigger pot than we make from Spotland facilities at present . | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 21:02 - May 24 with 3241 views | dingdangblue |
Spotland is too big for dale with 2500 gates - never mind hornets with their 300. As Flicker said at the forum - 'if I lived somewhere that was too big and expensive and draining my funds - Id find somewhere smaller and cheaper'! Now we dont know what arrangement hornets have with the Rfl? Are they funding the stadium costs in exchange for the shares? It just doesnt make economic sense for them to be at Spotland anymore. | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 21:03 - May 24 with 3240 views | SalwaDale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:57 - May 24 by pl56 |
I don't disagree with any of that at all ; I just think your original point about a possible ground share , for example at Kingsway , might just benefit all parties through some form of economy of scale that could market the facilities rather than the individual clubs , and just perhaps create a bigger pot than we make from Spotland facilities at present . |
For me, Rochdale is my team. I wouldn't want to support anyone else (and probably wouldn't if we merged). The thing that gets me is why must football clubs go bust? Why can't they all just come to their senses and start paying players less. I know that is really naive but in the end it is what must happen. If that means that our level is Blue Square North then so be it. Financial realism has to come into play in football very soon, and it is time people accepted that. It is time for the game to return to the people rather than the big business it has become.
Maybe that won't happen but I'll always believe it will. |  |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 21:43 - May 24 with 3200 views | TalkingSutty |
| Stadium company - future threats on 20:54 - May 24 by TVOS1907 |
I'm not sure there's a significant difference between the locations of Rochdale and Chesterfield, especially when you consider Chesterfield has the M1 motorway virtually on its doorstep. |
By location i was refering to the close proximity of other clubs around Greater Manchester, all competing for a slice of the financial pie.
Could you ever imagine Elton John appearing live at the old Saltergate stadium ? Believe it or not (i am sure you know), he is doing a live concert next month at their new stadium. All extra money in the coffers at Chesterfield, a club we will be hoping to compete with next season. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 22:21 - May 24 with 3148 views | dingdangblue |
| Stadium company - future threats on 21:43 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
By location i was refering to the close proximity of other clubs around Greater Manchester, all competing for a slice of the financial pie.
Could you ever imagine Elton John appearing live at the old Saltergate stadium ? Believe it or not (i am sure you know), he is doing a live concert next month at their new stadium. All extra money in the coffers at Chesterfield, a club we will be hoping to compete with next season. |
With Dave Sweetmore at Dale Im surprised the club hasnt looked into doing a summer concert at Spotland? With his contacts Im sure he could get the Inspiral Carpets,the Courteeners and various other manc bands to play - could be a real money spinner ? | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 22:26 - May 24 with 3140 views | TVOS1907 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 21:43 - May 24 by TalkingSutty |
By location i was refering to the close proximity of other clubs around Greater Manchester, all competing for a slice of the financial pie.
Could you ever imagine Elton John appearing live at the old Saltergate stadium ? Believe it or not (i am sure you know), he is doing a live concert next month at their new stadium. All extra money in the coffers at Chesterfield, a club we will be hoping to compete with next season. |
Chesterfield have got plenty of clubs in close proximity as well.
Admittedly not as many and not of the same size as we have, but plenty nonetheless. It's not a million miles from Chesterfield to Manchester, either.
Chesterfield had to move as they couldn't really renovate Saltergate, which was in need of renovation, something Spotland isn't.
Chesterfield also get larger crowds than we do and also have the potential to improve on their support, something else we have struggled with.
They had the need and the potential to make the move a success, as well as the right people in place to carry it out and keep it going.
I doubt a nice shiny new stadium would improve our support that much, although you're right in that it would provide a good venue for non-football-related activities.
As for merging with other clubs, that would be the day I'd be watching Jeff Stelling every week or socialising with roccy.
Anyway, Elton John has appeared live at Spotland - in 1977 to watch Watford! | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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