| Does anyone else remember…… 09:59 - Nov 13 with 5265 views | Barrowdale |
Or did I dream it. Before the season BJ said we have to play possession based boredom ball because thats the only way premier teams will loan us their next gen superstars.
I can’t see any anywhere so either I didn’t hear it or its complete bollocks, like our defence. |  | | |  |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 10:44 - Nov 13 with 5152 views | James1980 |
Didn't we have the ball in the back of the net 4 times in the first half? (yes only two counted)
Does possession based always have to equate to boredom in the stands?
I expect teams in the EFL or Premier League wouldn't loan us players if we played hoof it up to the big man ball as our predominant tactic |  |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 11:01 - Nov 13 with 5128 views | Drigdale |
The issue is that we are not good enough to play possession football from the back because the defence is simply not good enough to do it. They must learn initially to defend as a priority and then perhaps they can play about at the back.
This is not the time or league for us to allow clubs to use us as a place where some of their younger players can gain experience. It is a tough league and demands physicality and know how at the back. Instead we have a cobbled together defence that is clearly not functioning at the moment.
JK can not be described as a defensive left back, Oduroh appears out of his depth and young George is a boy in a mans world. Clearly he is one for the future but his lack of physicality and aerial strength is a problem. On the ball he is one of the best we have seen at that age and has a bright career ahead of him. But at the moment we need a proper defender.
We should eliminate unnecessary mistakes and if that means playing longer balls then we should change our current pattern of play because clearly it is not working with the personnel Jim McNulty has at his disposal. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 11:36 - Nov 13 with 5069 views | James1980 |
But would we have signed the players we did whether free, for a few, or on loan had JM said we are going to let the opposition have the majority of the ball soak up the pressure and hit them on the break playing long balls into the opposition half? Would our budget have allowed us to bring in players proficient at that style of football? | |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 11:55 - Nov 13 with 5028 views | Barrowdale |
It seems to work perfectly well for every other club that has sussed us out. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 12:09 - Nov 13 with 4995 views | D_Alien |
Also needs to be looked at through the opposite lens
If we have promising young defenders (e.g. Nevett) their value to us in future transfers would depend on their ability to attract clubs much higher up the football ladder. To do that, they must be able to demonstrate the kind of ball-playing ability required at that level
However... when we nurtured Craig Dawson towards his career in the Premier league, it didn't require us to play the type of football that we now see. It's the balance that we're consistently getting wrong, between playing possession-based football and the type of longer ball that Dawson made his trademark. So in effect, by not providing sufficient opportunity for Nevett to play that type of ball (which he's demonstrated he can do) and also neglecting the basic defensive work which is the bread and butter for any CB, our system is doing him and the club no favours. Conceding like we do undermines his progress
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:17]
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 12:57 - Nov 13 with 4882 views | 1949er |
Four Mullarkeys would do. | |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 13:05 - Nov 13 with 4865 views | Edindale |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 11:01 - Nov 13 by Drigdale |
The issue is that we are not good enough to play possession football from the back because the defence is simply not good enough to do it. They must learn initially to defend as a priority and then perhaps they can play about at the back.
This is not the time or league for us to allow clubs to use us as a place where some of their younger players can gain experience. It is a tough league and demands physicality and know how at the back. Instead we have a cobbled together defence that is clearly not functioning at the moment.
JK can not be described as a defensive left back, Oduroh appears out of his depth and young George is a boy in a mans world. Clearly he is one for the future but his lack of physicality and aerial strength is a problem. On the ball he is one of the best we have seen at that age and has a bright career ahead of him. But at the moment we need a proper defender.
We should eliminate unnecessary mistakes and if that means playing longer balls then we should change our current pattern of play because clearly it is not working with the personnel Jim McNulty has at his disposal. |
Totally agree! Need Cameron John, Max Taylor and Ferguson to stiffen up the defence in a tough physical league.
Our passing from the back is allowing other teams to sett up defensively against us making them more difficult to break down.
Fitness also appears to be a problem. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 13:49 - Nov 13 with 4766 views | 49thseason |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 13:05 - Nov 13 by Edindale |
Totally agree! Need Cameron John, Max Taylor and Ferguson to stiffen up the defence in a tough physical league.
Our passing from the back is allowing other teams to sett up defensively against us making them more difficult to break down.
Fitness also appears to be a problem. |
It would be interesting to see the team milage state for teams in this division. I dare say we are doing more running to play keep-ball than we would playing a more direct style. Hence we run out of steam quicker. The 1st half / 2nd half stats seem to support the theory that the team runs out of steam which is double jeapody when there are anything up to 10 or more minutes of extra time. |  | | |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 13:54 - Nov 13 with 4753 views | surb_dale |
I would say the entertainment served up at the games this season are far and way an improvement on the turgid stuff served up under Stockdale. However the frustration is were losing and drawing games that we shouldnt be with Saturday another example.
The game on Saturday could have gone either way and the decisions from both managers i think did have an impact on the end result. Both teams were playing a form of possession based football but Wealdstone tried to get crosses in where we would often recycle it back. Especially on our left where we had Hendo and SAJ.
After Rodney came on we had a dominant spell where it looked a matter of time before we'd score. Then their keeper feigned an injury and the game stopped for a spell. All the players went over to the touchline. Listening to the interview with the Wealdstone gaffer he said they switched formation to 451 after our subs. Assume he did that during the stoppage. We also brought Jez to go an almost 4-2-4 to try and win the game.
BJ is an inexperienced manager and i'm not sure if he's too nice to implement some of the dark arts that opposition teams have been using. After they changed shape we continued to try the short passes out from the back which meant most of the remainder of the game was played in our half. He should have recognised that with the pace we had on the pitch we should have been mixing it up much more forcing them back with balls over the top to start building pressure on them. Maybe he did recognise this but didnt get the message across but this is where the dark arts come into play to enforce a stoppage.
If BJ is going to make it as a manager being nice wont get you anywhere. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:42 - Nov 13 with 4687 views | Sandyman |
Regarding the OP, I recall it was BBM who said that about getting loanees from Premiership teams. He certainly provided box-ticking football to suit his own interests. |  | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:49 - Nov 13 with 4675 views | EllDale |
Some of those Premiership loanees were distinctly underwhelming if you ask me.
I can’t remember their names (help please TVOS) but there was the left back from Arsenal plus a defender from Manchester City who barely played a game.
And Gavin Bazunu wasn’t a patch on Bobby Sanchez.
RND was a great loan signing but he played like a good old fashioned left back. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:51 - Nov 13 with 4671 views | AtThePeake |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 13:54 - Nov 13 by surb_dale |
I would say the entertainment served up at the games this season are far and way an improvement on the turgid stuff served up under Stockdale. However the frustration is were losing and drawing games that we shouldnt be with Saturday another example.
The game on Saturday could have gone either way and the decisions from both managers i think did have an impact on the end result. Both teams were playing a form of possession based football but Wealdstone tried to get crosses in where we would often recycle it back. Especially on our left where we had Hendo and SAJ.
After Rodney came on we had a dominant spell where it looked a matter of time before we'd score. Then their keeper feigned an injury and the game stopped for a spell. All the players went over to the touchline. Listening to the interview with the Wealdstone gaffer he said they switched formation to 451 after our subs. Assume he did that during the stoppage. We also brought Jez to go an almost 4-2-4 to try and win the game.
BJ is an inexperienced manager and i'm not sure if he's too nice to implement some of the dark arts that opposition teams have been using. After they changed shape we continued to try the short passes out from the back which meant most of the remainder of the game was played in our half. He should have recognised that with the pace we had on the pitch we should have been mixing it up much more forcing them back with balls over the top to start building pressure on them. Maybe he did recognise this but didnt get the message across but this is where the dark arts come into play to enforce a stoppage.
If BJ is going to make it as a manager being nice wont get you anywhere. |
Your first paragraph is spot on. It seems like people once again are confusing their dissatisfaction at the results with their dissatisfaction with the playing style. If we hold onto the lead at 2-1 on Saturday, is anybody on the forum today bemoaning the style of play for being boring?
And this nonsense that we never play long balls patently isn't true either. In the last game prior to Saturday our first goal came from a long ball from the goalkeeper which was finished first time by Hayes and our second came from a long ball from defence that was flicked on by Mitchell. The first goal on Saturday came from an old-fashioned through ball from midfield which you don't see a lot of these days. By setting up to play possession football first and foremost we often can draw teams out and give ourselves more space to play the ball in behind. If Moulden's taking a long goal kick every time then the opposition are obviously going to set up for that and have more defenders in deeper areas rather than trying to stop the short goal kick by having players on the edge of our area and giving us room to exploit further up the pitch.
We've scored 10 goals in our last 4 games. As "boring" as it may seem to some, in possession we're actually proving to be pretty effective and in my opinion quite varied based on the different types of goal we're scoring. Only four teams in the division have scored more than us this season.
But this post is not in defence of Jim. He absolutely HAS to sort out the defensive issues one way or another and as quickly as possible, because everything else is being undone by that. We've conceded 12 in those same four games - 7 of which have come from crosses into the box. None of which have come as a direct result of overplaying at the back and losing the ball.
In fact, we've conceded 32 goals so far this season - that's seven more than bottom-placed Kidderminster. 18 of those 32 have come from crosses into the box. We've conceded as many goals from crosses as Halifax have conceded altogether. I can only find one example of us conceding within 2/3 passes after being caught in possession in our own third - and that came from a cross into the box immediately after Keohane lost the ball in the right-back position.
There's also a serious issue with game management. Of the 13 games we've failed to win in the league this season, we've actually led in seven of them. On two occasions we've been leading, at home, by two goals and failed to win. I've pointed out the issues with the fitness of players that are being asked to play too much football but one of those games was against a Southend side that could only name three subs and two of them were against part-time teams in Maidenhead and Wealdstone. We have to be mentally tougher and be better at killing an opponent's momentum when they're trying to find a way back into a game.
You can be as effective as you like in possession, but if you're conceding 2/3 goals per game and are throwing away points from a winning position in 35% of your games then it's never going to count for much. The thing is, I know it's inherently frustrating for a lot of fans to watch players recycle the ball or play short goal kicks but those really, really aren't the things that are costing us at the moment.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:59 - Nov 13 with 4653 views | TVOS1907 |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 13:49 - Nov 13 by 49thseason |
It would be interesting to see the team milage state for teams in this division. I dare say we are doing more running to play keep-ball than we would playing a more direct style. Hence we run out of steam quicker. The 1st half / 2nd half stats seem to support the theory that the team runs out of steam which is double jeapody when there are anything up to 10 or more minutes of extra time. |
And yet, we've conceded only one goal (at Wealdstone) in added time at the end of a game so far. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:59 - Nov 13 with 4649 views | TVOS1907 |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:49 - Nov 13 by EllDale |
Some of those Premiership loanees were distinctly underwhelming if you ask me.
I can’t remember their names (help please TVOS) but there was the left back from Arsenal plus a defender from Manchester City who barely played a game.
And Gavin Bazunu wasn’t a patch on Bobby Sanchez.
RND was a great loan signing but he played like a good old fashioned left back. |
Tolaji Bola? | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 15:09 - Nov 13 with 4617 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:51 - Nov 13 by AtThePeake |
Your first paragraph is spot on. It seems like people once again are confusing their dissatisfaction at the results with their dissatisfaction with the playing style. If we hold onto the lead at 2-1 on Saturday, is anybody on the forum today bemoaning the style of play for being boring?
And this nonsense that we never play long balls patently isn't true either. In the last game prior to Saturday our first goal came from a long ball from the goalkeeper which was finished first time by Hayes and our second came from a long ball from defence that was flicked on by Mitchell. The first goal on Saturday came from an old-fashioned through ball from midfield which you don't see a lot of these days. By setting up to play possession football first and foremost we often can draw teams out and give ourselves more space to play the ball in behind. If Moulden's taking a long goal kick every time then the opposition are obviously going to set up for that and have more defenders in deeper areas rather than trying to stop the short goal kick by having players on the edge of our area and giving us room to exploit further up the pitch.
We've scored 10 goals in our last 4 games. As "boring" as it may seem to some, in possession we're actually proving to be pretty effective and in my opinion quite varied based on the different types of goal we're scoring. Only four teams in the division have scored more than us this season.
But this post is not in defence of Jim. He absolutely HAS to sort out the defensive issues one way or another and as quickly as possible, because everything else is being undone by that. We've conceded 12 in those same four games - 7 of which have come from crosses into the box. None of which have come as a direct result of overplaying at the back and losing the ball.
In fact, we've conceded 32 goals so far this season - that's seven more than bottom-placed Kidderminster. 18 of those 32 have come from crosses into the box. We've conceded as many goals from crosses as Halifax have conceded altogether. I can only find one example of us conceding within 2/3 passes after being caught in possession in our own third - and that came from a cross into the box immediately after Keohane lost the ball in the right-back position.
There's also a serious issue with game management. Of the 13 games we've failed to win in the league this season, we've actually led in seven of them. On two occasions we've been leading, at home, by two goals and failed to win. I've pointed out the issues with the fitness of players that are being asked to play too much football but one of those games was against a Southend side that could only name three subs and two of them were against part-time teams in Maidenhead and Wealdstone. We have to be mentally tougher and be better at killing an opponent's momentum when they're trying to find a way back into a game.
You can be as effective as you like in possession, but if you're conceding 2/3 goals per game and are throwing away points from a winning position in 35% of your games then it's never going to count for much. The thing is, I know it's inherently frustrating for a lot of fans to watch players recycle the ball or play short goal kicks but those really, really aren't the things that are costing us at the moment.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Absolutely spot on.
You cannot be expected to score three goals every game just to take a point.
I think as big an issue as our defending is, I think we're just painfully weak mentally which is quite a statement when you have experienced players like Clayton, Henderson and Ebanks-Landell. How many times have we conceded less than 10 minutes after scoring? It's mind blowing.
McNulty has to learn, and adapt quickly. We have to stop sitting back when we lead because we don't have the ability, or the mental capacity to be able to cope with that pressure.
I think we'd all have taken a league position similar to where we are now, without even hesitating at the beginning of the season, but the manner in which we're here is making it very difficult to defend the manager because this league is that poor, had we been able to win those games we've thrown away, we'd be comfortably in the playoffs but as it stands, despite being 9th, we're only 6 points off relegation and 5 points off the playoffs! |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 15:10 - Nov 13 with 4616 views | EllDale |
That’s the chap, thank you. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 15:21 - Nov 13 with 4593 views | 49thseason |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 14:59 - Nov 13 by TVOS1907 |
And yet, we've conceded only one goal (at Wealdstone) in added time at the end of a game so far. |
True but we have conceded 62% (20 out of 32) of goals against us in the second half whereas our goals for are about evenly spread over the 2 halves (17/16). We are generally stronger in the first half which points to either running out of steam or complacency or being out-thought tactically. Something isn't quite right for sure. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 15:27 - Nov 13 with 4572 views | TVOS1907 |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 15:21 - Nov 13 by 49thseason |
True but we have conceded 62% (20 out of 32) of goals against us in the second half whereas our goals for are about evenly spread over the 2 halves (17/16). We are generally stronger in the first half which points to either running out of steam or complacency or being out-thought tactically. Something isn't quite right for sure. |
No stats to hand, but aren't more goals generally scored in the second half anyway? | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 16:49 - Nov 13 with 4444 views | NorthernDale |
It was McNulty in his post match statement after Stockport away, and he stated the board preferred the possession style, which McNulty fully embraced, because they believed that this football style would attract loan players from the premiership clubs. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 16:57 - Nov 13 with 4418 views | DaleiLama |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 16:49 - Nov 13 by NorthernDale |
It was McNulty in his post match statement after Stockport away, and he stated the board preferred the possession style, which McNulty fully embraced, because they believed that this football style would attract loan players from the premiership clubs. |
Worked with Moulden I'd say. Arguably our player of the season to date? |  |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 17:34 - Nov 13 with 4336 views | davidab2202 |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 16:49 - Nov 13 by NorthernDale |
It was McNulty in his post match statement after Stockport away, and he stated the board preferred the possession style, which McNulty fully embraced, because they believed that this football style would attract loan players from the premiership clubs. |
Any half decent young player at a Premiership club(Goalkeepers perhaps excluded) would almost certainly not be loaned out to a team at our level but more likely go out on loan no lower down the chain than Div 1.
Any player loaned out from a Premier League club to a club at our level would almost certainly(IMO) be to give that player a chance to put himself "in the window" to try to attract a possible future contract at a lower league club as a career path . | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 17:40 - Nov 13 with 4317 views | Edindale |
Moulden has been very good but maybe doesn't dominate in the way a more experienced keeper would given our dodgy defence. East and Sinclair are other contenders to date.
Regarding premiership loanees - where are they? Despite Jim's connections in the game I would suggest that our record of attracting quality young talent is pretty average even at NL level.
This is frustrating given the number of clubs in the North West but I realise that finance is an issue. | | | |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 18:51 - Nov 13 with 4169 views | 442Dale |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 15:09 - Nov 13 by ChaffRAFC |
Absolutely spot on.
You cannot be expected to score three goals every game just to take a point.
I think as big an issue as our defending is, I think we're just painfully weak mentally which is quite a statement when you have experienced players like Clayton, Henderson and Ebanks-Landell. How many times have we conceded less than 10 minutes after scoring? It's mind blowing.
McNulty has to learn, and adapt quickly. We have to stop sitting back when we lead because we don't have the ability, or the mental capacity to be able to cope with that pressure.
I think we'd all have taken a league position similar to where we are now, without even hesitating at the beginning of the season, but the manner in which we're here is making it very difficult to defend the manager because this league is that poor, had we been able to win those games we've thrown away, we'd be comfortably in the playoffs but as it stands, despite being 9th, we're only 6 points off relegation and 5 points off the playoffs! |
Some really perceptive posts on here, this is another.
I think McNulty has most definitely shown an ability to adapt. Both from how he spoke initially (Wimbledon game) and from some of the stuff coming out from the club around the time when we were relegated. His “total options” appeared to be an acknowledgment of supporters concerns and we’ve seen it play out on the pitch.
However, your point Chaff about how we play after scoring is worth special attention. That’s when the “total options” and “defending crosses” does become two related aspects of a game because we really should look to spend that time in the opponents half where possible. Not because retaining possession in our own half and then going longer hasn’t worked, but to deal with psychological issue that seems to have developed. Attempting to play twenty yards further up the pitch for ten minutes and making the other team take throw ins in their last third must be worth trying. Then when the game settles, revert to type.
If we don’t have to defend crosses for a little while, we can’t concede from them! |  |
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| Does anyone else remember…… on 20:24 - Nov 13 with 4049 views | bluevein64 |
| Does anyone else remember…… on 11:01 - Nov 13 by Drigdale |
The issue is that we are not good enough to play possession football from the back because the defence is simply not good enough to do it. They must learn initially to defend as a priority and then perhaps they can play about at the back.
This is not the time or league for us to allow clubs to use us as a place where some of their younger players can gain experience. It is a tough league and demands physicality and know how at the back. Instead we have a cobbled together defence that is clearly not functioning at the moment.
JK can not be described as a defensive left back, Oduroh appears out of his depth and young George is a boy in a mans world. Clearly he is one for the future but his lack of physicality and aerial strength is a problem. On the ball he is one of the best we have seen at that age and has a bright career ahead of him. But at the moment we need a proper defender.
We should eliminate unnecessary mistakes and if that means playing longer balls then we should change our current pattern of play because clearly it is not working with the personnel Jim McNulty has at his disposal. |
Exactly, I've been saying this to anyone that's willing to listen since Pep introduced "possession football playing rom the back" but squads can't play the "City Way" with players that don't have similar calibre of players as the City player's - possession, playing from the back seems to be the in thing, fashionable, even at Dog and Duck level in fact Managers at Clubs at all levels, standards and age categories seem to have got the bug and are instructing their squads to play the City Way/Pep way, I recently watched a Sunday League game were the Keeper was kicking/rolling the ball out 10 yards to a "Full Back" who couldn't even trap the ball, no variation, no clearing their lines, no Gerrit - ing it Forhead or relieving pressure, constantly on the back foot, being dispossessed time and time again !
Back to your post Drigdale, with regards to Dale, I'm not saying that its that bad but I do see similarities to the Dog and Duck not having good enough players, trying to play a certain style more suitable for top players , you've summarized everything I needed to say with in your first one and a half lines ! |  | | |
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