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Being Irish myself, but living in London for the past thirty years or so, I recall the IRA's so-called 'mainland' campaigns all too well. Apart from the odd person who opined that my employment should be terminated and that I should be 'sent home', most people realised that the scum planting bombs had nothing whatsoever to do with the men & women on their knees in Catholic Churches, sending their pennies to the poor of the Third World long, long before it was fashionable to do so. Ironically, my own place of work was bombed in 1992, and whilst I was not in the building at the time, I returned with my then manager in tow and started walking towards it to see if it was safe to return. Unknown to us, the bombers had planted a second bomb in a litter bin at the back of the (now evacuated) building, and it went off as we were walking towards it, a sight and a noise I'll never really leave behind. Then I ran. It's what you do. It was murderous behaviour of the lowest order, but deporting Terry Wogan would not have ended it, that's for sure.
The low trash of Daesh have about as much to do with the people in your local Mosque as the IRA had to do with me : of my faith (ostensibly) but happy to kill me all the same, the 'link' not even tenuous. Daesh have far, far more in common with the likes of Ian Brady and Charles Manson : deranged killers who can't be reasoned with.
If more can be done to protect us all, I suspect it's at grassroots level : look at travelling abroad for sinister reasons, get down to the micro-layer of this, disrupt and destroy to an even greater extent than has been done by getting up close & personal. Police and intelligence need more resources ? Give it to them.
Nothing is more important than this : except maybe remembering that we're all of this earth and we (the decent) all have to stick together.
The initial expansion of the caliphates into europe was halted in central france and southern alps at at the battle of tours in 732 after which they where pushed back out of france and northern spain . Possibly a better watershed date between christianity and Islam
I think we can argue about watershed dates until the cows come home, my point is that real history does not reflect a one-sided conflict between Western Europe and the Muslim world, where the former is always the aggressor and oppressor.
Bowlocks, balderdash,bunkum and bullspit! Reconquista begun by Basque Asturian Pelayo/Pelagius with his back to the mountains at Covadonga in 722 - a true watershed date.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2017 11:48]
A stout fellow no doubt but a thorn in the side, as opposed to Charlie the hammer
Being Irish myself, but living in London for the past thirty years or so, I recall the IRA's so-called 'mainland' campaigns all too well. Apart from the odd person who opined that my employment should be terminated and that I should be 'sent home', most people realised that the scum planting bombs had nothing whatsoever to do with the men & women on their knees in Catholic Churches, sending their pennies to the poor of the Third World long, long before it was fashionable to do so. Ironically, my own place of work was bombed in 1992, and whilst I was not in the building at the time, I returned with my then manager in tow and started walking towards it to see if it was safe to return. Unknown to us, the bombers had planted a second bomb in a litter bin at the back of the (now evacuated) building, and it went off as we were walking towards it, a sight and a noise I'll never really leave behind. Then I ran. It's what you do. It was murderous behaviour of the lowest order, but deporting Terry Wogan would not have ended it, that's for sure.
The low trash of Daesh have about as much to do with the people in your local Mosque as the IRA had to do with me : of my faith (ostensibly) but happy to kill me all the same, the 'link' not even tenuous. Daesh have far, far more in common with the likes of Ian Brady and Charles Manson : deranged killers who can't be reasoned with.
If more can be done to protect us all, I suspect it's at grassroots level : look at travelling abroad for sinister reasons, get down to the micro-layer of this, disrupt and destroy to an even greater extent than has been done by getting up close & personal. Police and intelligence need more resources ? Give it to them.
Nothing is more important than this : except maybe remembering that we're all of this earth and we (the decent) all have to stick together.
Did Catholic churches ever play the same role in the Troubles that some mosques are doing in the current conflict, i.e. places where extremist ideology is tolerated, even fomented and disseminated?
I'm no Tory but Theresa May did well to highlight yesterday that there is too much tolerance or tacit acceptance of extremism in the Muslim community.
I think we can argue about watershed dates until the cows come home, my point is that real history does not reflect a one-sided conflict between Western Europe and the Muslim world, where the former is always the aggressor and oppressor.
yes, I agree with that
The strong in history have almost always looked to subjugate and exploit the weak at home and abroad, Formal religions have been used and developed as a tool to further that process
I am left wing and was part of the stop the war demonstrations against the Iraq war. However what appears is more radicalised British citizens and I feel looking at foreign interventions gives them too much leverage and excuses for their actions.
It's not about excuses for extremist actions, it's about trying to work out how to deal with the situation we're in. I just can't understand how suggesting that destroying a country's infrastructure is conducive with breeding extremism is controversial, or in any way lets extremists off the hook.
This idea that the left is soft on Islamic extremism is absolute nonsense. I don't think you could call this lot fighting ISIS in Syria soft lefties for example.
Edit: not specifically aimed at you, despite direct reply.
Did Catholic churches ever play the same role in the Troubles that some mosques are doing in the current conflict, i.e. places where extremist ideology is tolerated, even fomented and disseminated?
I'm no Tory but Theresa May did well to highlight yesterday that there is too much tolerance or tacit acceptance of extremism in the Muslim community.
If that is happening, then dealing with it comes under what I've already said : find out where it's actually going on, get in there and deal with it up close and personal.
We should not be tolerating the dissemination of hatred : a word of caution, however. Any fool can stand outside any building and hand out inflammatory leaflets - without having anything to do with what goes on inside the place.
Yeh it's all about left wing and right wing this, as always. Really helpful.
Agree with you about people filming it on mobile phones but criticising people for running away or doing whatever their brain decided to do in the split second between having a pint on Saturday night and having somebody rushing into the bar with a big knife and a load of canisters strapped to them is ridiculous. If it was as simple as everybody just standing up and beating them up nobody would ever be killed in a terrorist attack would they?
But, yeh, somebody's disagreed with you, so they must be a "left wing" or one of my "disciples" so off you flounce.
Fight or flight? I have no idea what I would do but as someone who flies from the UK to the US on a regular basis I have made a decision that I would prepare myself to fight - in the event my flight was hijacked. As for the events of Saturday night I am not sure what I would have done given the fear and panic. I would hope I would "fight my corner" especially if my loved ones were with me.
If that is happening, then dealing with it comes under what I've already said : find out where it's actually going on, get in there and deal with it up close and personal.
We should not be tolerating the dissemination of hatred : a word of caution, however. Any fool can stand outside any building and hand out inflammatory leaflets - without having anything to do with what goes on inside the place.
That's true, but it's happening inside mosques almost as much as outside.
My wife works with a fella from the UAE, when they moved premises last year he duly began to worship at the local mosque and was approached within days by a group trying to 'enlighten' him, shall we say, about the current conflict. He told them in no uncertain terms he wasn't interested.
As far as I'm aware this mosque isn't known as a hotbed of extremism but he told my wife they were quite open about it, it's no secret among the congregation and that a blind eye is being turned by those in charge there.
Just a snapshot of what is potentially going on all around us.
Fight or flight? I have no idea what I would do but as someone who flies from the UK to the US on a regular basis I have made a decision that I would prepare myself to fight - in the event my flight was hijacked. As for the events of Saturday night I am not sure what I would have done given the fear and panic. I would hope I would "fight my corner" especially if my loved ones were with me.
From my own experience (see post above) I can tell you that fight AND flight can happen simultaneously - I was determinedly striding back towards a building that I knew had just been bombed, but when the second bomb went off I ran like f**k.
It's all in-the-moment stuff. No bravery or cowardice, it's just moderating your reactions second by second when something like this unfolds.
That's true, but it's happening inside mosques almost as much as outside.
My wife works with a fella from the UAE, when they moved premises last year he duly began to worship at the local mosque and was approached within days by a group trying to 'enlighten' him, shall we say, about the current conflict. He told them in no uncertain terms he wasn't interested.
As far as I'm aware this mosque isn't known as a hotbed of extremism but he told my wife they were quite open about it, it's no secret among the congregation and that a blind eye is being turned by those in charge there.
Just a snapshot of what is potentially going on all around us.
Completely with you on this. Wherever what you describe is going on, it should be detected & shut down.
Absolutely no fan of Mrs.May, but if that's what she's talking about then action is long overdue.
Yeh real easy to have a big go on message board though isn't it? Sit there at your keyboard and say what people should have done, would have done back in the day. If only everybody was a Millwall fan and wasn't so bloody soft and left wing and too busy on Instagram or X Factor this sort of thing would be stamped out immediately. That's the big problem here.
Heaven forbid any of us have to suffer that situation for real: guy with a big blade running towards us shouting about Allah; canisters strapped round him; mass panic all around, people running and scrambling this way and that, people screaming, people pushing, shoving, climbing over other people to get up a stair case or down an alley. You don't know if he's alone, you don't know if he's about to pull the pin, you don't know if the thing in his hand is the trigger so you don't know if punching him might blow the whole place up. You don't know what's going on in truth because two seconds ago you were settling into pint five of your Saturday night. You've got those two seconds, under the influence, to process all that.
You think you're capable of a nice, calm, rational reaction? You think you're just going to walk up to this guy, stick one on him, go back to the bar and finish your pint? Good on you. We'd all like to think we'd stride forward on the front foot swinging a bar stool.
But let's be honest. In all likelihood you'd be stricken with absolute fear, panic and shock. You've never experienced anything like this. You'd be absolutely shtting yourself. You wouldn't be in charge of your actions. You wouldn't be able to remember or recall afterwards what you did, what you said, where you went. You'd be absolutely fcking terrified, acting completely on instinct and survival mode. This isn't some dickhead spilling your pint in The British Queen in 1985 FFS.
And yeh some cnt of a journalist might shove a camera on you afterwards and ask you what it was like and you'd mumble or babble some incoherent, half-true, hazy, PTS sht about seeing a girl getting stabbed. And then some even bigger cnt of a cnt would then go on a football message board and say you should have done something about it like in the good old days.
Honestly the Monday Morning Quarter Back routine from the left and right on here after every incident like this is disgusting. Got all the answers have you? Know who to blame and how to solve it all? Think it would all be over by Friday if we just closed all the mosques (how?) and deported all the Muslims (to where?) do you? Think we should just all carry on as normal and "not let them win" and have a big concert and pray for a city and chair another fcking meeting of the fcking Cobra committee do you? Fantastic. Isn't it amazing that groups of people with decades of intelligence and law enforcement expertise with all the information at fingertips are struggling with this while all the (seemingly very simple) answers were available here all along, among the posters of the second busiest QPR message board.
My little brother's a copper in this borough. He's a boy. They give him a few months training, a truncheon, something that looks a bit like a car aerial, a stab proof vest, a succession of 12 hour shifts and strict instructions on not to chase anybody on a moped in case they crash and not to stop and search somebody that may cause them a political problem and that's his lot. Whenever it goes off in London our mum and me have his shift patterns on our phone to see if it's him involved. He's out there tonight. I'm sure he'd be all ears and grateful for the bar room wisdom of people who've never experienced anything like what he faces every single day but nevertheless think this would never have happened in the good old days if only people weren't so wet.
This post has been edited by an administrator
I'm not claiming anything for myself, but you've made a rather large assumption that no-one on here has been previously involved in any kind of mass disorder/mayhem or been in a situation of conflict/combat etc, which is just as statistically likely on a message board as it is on a busy Saturday night high street.
I'm not claiming anything for myself, but you've made a rather large assumption that no-one on here has been previously involved in any kind of mass disorder/mayhem or been in a situation of conflict/combat etc, which is just as statistically likely on a message board as it is on a busy Saturday night high street.
Well if somebody thinks the problem is people watch too much pop idol and it's as simple as getting a few boys from down the pub to stand up and rough them up it's a fair assumption to make.
yeah good on the couple of blokes who stood firm but where are the others ? plenty of eye witnesses to seeing a woman stabbed 15 times, don't stand there get into them ,even the community officers had it away on their toes this country is weak its full of the pop idol brigade taking selfies and laying flowers if this stunt was pulled in a London pub 30 years ago those 3 fellas wouldn't have needed the old bill to kill them the locals would have done it themselves
What do you think pp Bit of a kunt for filming it ?
What do you think pp Bit of a kunt for filming it ?
[Post edited 5 Jun 2017 14:20]
Normally I'd be very critical of the producer of footage like this, but in the Pole's defence he is clearly trying to help as well. He must have been close to the thick of it, and had armed himself with a broom.
Normally I'd be very critical of the producer of footage like this, but in the Pole's defence he is clearly trying to help as well. He must have been close to the thick of it, and had armed himself with a broom.
Romanian But the point is don't be judging others when you are not there facing it.
I've seen some comments elsewhere of him being criticized for calling them Muslim scum
Would anyone have any idea about these missing people? I'm at work, clicking between a local radio station and NPR and, when reading the casualty list, they keep mentioning "at least four missing".
Would anyone have any idea about these missing people? I'm at work, clicking between a local radio station and NPR and, when reading the casualty list, they keep mentioning "at least four missing".
It maybe they can't identify some of the dead yet and they could be the missing
Would anyone have any idea about these missing people? I'm at work, clicking between a local radio station and NPR and, when reading the casualty list, they keep mentioning "at least four missing".
Been thinking about that this afternoon, it's on Spanish media because one is a banker from Madrid who hit one of them with his skateboard. So he didn't go over the bridge and into the river, he was in the thick of it. It's a bit odd as if there were four unidentified and four missing then likely QED but that doesn't seem to be the case. The bloke from Madrid was reportedly seen on the floor by his mates, hard to imagine the chaos in which you wouldn't sto and drag a friend off the floor with you. Until all the facts emerge...I guess better to wait and see. On the brighter side good to see the Romanian fella arming himself and backing the police.
Completely with you on this. Wherever what you describe is going on, it should be detected & shut down.
Absolutely no fan of Mrs.May, but if that's what she's talking about then action is long overdue.
How does that tie in with intelligence though? As far as I can make out the attackers in Manchester, London Bridge and Westminster have been identified to the authorities by friends, family etc, basically other Muslims. If the terrorists were to guard their comments to their own community and go further underground, aren't we making it harder to detect them? Same with closing mosques, if they started preaching hate in the basement of some house somewhere that's got to be harder to track than in a mosque.
How does that tie in with intelligence though? As far as I can make out the attackers in Manchester, London Bridge and Westminster have been identified to the authorities by friends, family etc, basically other Muslims. If the terrorists were to guard their comments to their own community and go further underground, aren't we making it harder to detect them? Same with closing mosques, if they started preaching hate in the basement of some house somewhere that's got to be harder to track than in a mosque.
It also makes it harder for them to recruit people and spread their hateful views. While they are doing this in mosques they will feel that it is accepted and part of Islam, if the mosques reject them and their views and they are left with no alternative but to preach hate in their basement it'll be clear to them that they've isolated themselves and that muslims don't support them.
Did Catholic churches ever play the same role in the Troubles that some mosques are doing in the current conflict, i.e. places where extremist ideology is tolerated, even fomented and disseminated?
I'm no Tory but Theresa May did well to highlight yesterday that there is too much tolerance or tacit acceptance of extremism in the Muslim community.
Some Protestant clergymen were preaching hate against the Catholics. The reverend Ian Paisley for instance.
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