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From the Daily Mirror. Six reasons why ISIS hate us (being anyone but those who hold their ideology), invasion of 'their lands' come a poor six out of six.
I think you'll find reasons 4,5 & 6 are mainly to do with our foreign policies over the years. Number 1 is a complete joke.They talk about the oneness of Islam.They kill more of their own than they ever do of us. They're just evil scum that are being brainwashed by more evil scum who aren't brave enough to fight themselves.
I think you'll find reasons 4,5 & 6 are mainly to do with our foreign policies over the years. Number 1 is a complete joke.They talk about the oneness of Islam.They kill more of their own than they ever do of us. They're just evil scum that are being brainwashed by more evil scum who aren't brave enough to fight themselves.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2017 7:03]
I won't disagree with you, and that is the point, they are evil scum and whatever foreign policy, whatever olive branch is held out, they have no intention of negotiation, they are hell bent on destroying all societies that do not conform to their 'version' of Islam, including those couple of billion of muslims who are law abiding, respectful, caring people who treat people at face value.
Yeh real easy to have a big go on message board though isn't it? Sit there at your keyboard and say what people should have done, would have done back in the day. If only everybody was a Millwall fan and wasn't so bloody soft and left wing and too busy on Instagram or X Factor this sort of thing would be stamped out immediately. That's the big problem here.
Heaven forbid any of us have to suffer that situation for real: guy with a big blade running towards us shouting about Allah; canisters strapped round him; mass panic all around, people running and scrambling this way and that, people screaming, people pushing, shoving, climbing over other people to get up a stair case or down an alley. You don't know if he's alone, you don't know if he's about to pull the pin, you don't know if the thing in his hand is the trigger so you don't know if punching him might blow the whole place up. You don't know what's going on in truth because two seconds ago you were settling into pint five of your Saturday night. You've got those two seconds, under the influence, to process all that.
You think you're capable of a nice, calm, rational reaction? You think you're just going to walk up to this guy, stick one on him, go back to the bar and finish your pint? Good on you. We'd all like to think we'd stride forward on the front foot swinging a bar stool.
But let's be honest. In all likelihood you'd be stricken with absolute fear, panic and shock. You've never experienced anything like this. You'd be absolutely shtting yourself. You wouldn't be in charge of your actions. You wouldn't be able to remember or recall afterwards what you did, what you said, where you went. You'd be absolutely fcking terrified, acting completely on instinct and survival mode. This isn't some dickhead spilling your pint in The British Queen in 1985 FFS.
And yeh some cnt of a journalist might shove a camera on you afterwards and ask you what it was like and you'd mumble or babble some incoherent, half-true, hazy, PTS sht about seeing a girl getting stabbed. And then some even bigger cnt of a cnt would then go on a football message board and say you should have done something about it like in the good old days.
Honestly the Monday Morning Quarter Back routine from the left and right on here after every incident like this is disgusting. Got all the answers have you? Know who to blame and how to solve it all? Think it would all be over by Friday if we just closed all the mosques (how?) and deported all the Muslims (to where?) do you? Think we should just all carry on as normal and "not let them win" and have a big concert and pray for a city and chair another fcking meeting of the fcking Cobra committee do you? Fantastic. Isn't it amazing that groups of people with decades of intelligence and law enforcement expertise with all the information at fingertips are struggling with this while all the (seemingly very simple) answers were available here all along, among the posters of the second busiest QPR message board.
My little brother's a copper in this borough. He's a boy. They give him a few months training, a truncheon, something that looks a bit like a car aerial, a stab proof vest, a succession of 12 hour shifts and strict instructions on not to chase anybody on a moped in case they crash and not to stop and search somebody that may cause them a political problem and that's his lot. Whenever it goes off in London our mum and me have his shift patterns on our phone to see if it's him involved. He's out there tonight. I'm sure he'd be all ears and grateful for the bar room wisdom of people who've never experienced anything like what he faces every single day but nevertheless think this would never have happened in the good old days if only people weren't so wet.
Well seeing as the first of the crusades was in 1095, I'd say the cobblers probably started just after then and if the proceeding years since then have been anything like our conduct just since 2003, I'd say the cobblers has yet to finish!
It's always easy for leaders to focus on the, 'how' is this happening, when the first question should be, 'why' is this happening?
How far do you want to go back?
Within 5 years of Muhammad's death, the Caliph Umar took Jerusalem from the Byzantines. But it had only been recovered from the Sassanids (non-Muslim precursor empire to that of the Caliph, which itself was the inheritor of the Roman, Macedonian, Persian and Babylonian empires) a few years earlier. Each of these empires took it from the Jews who only got it back after the Persians let them have it back when they defeated Babylon. The Biblical narrative said it belonged to the Jebusites when David's forces took it. Even when they had it, they would have to have paid tribute to Egypt as the Pharaohs claimed the whole area as far back as the 15th century BC - they wouldn't have got that without the use of force or threats.
I don't say this to have a dig about you or your point, which is valid and I am not wheeling myself out as some academic bully. East, West? Neither has the best of records.
'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'
Yeah, those were the days, you couldn't walk into a pub with a knife without the Kray's say so.
WTF are you going on about
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
Within 5 years of Muhammad's death, the Caliph Umar took Jerusalem from the Byzantines. But it had only been recovered from the Sassanids (non-Muslim precursor empire to that of the Caliph, which itself was the inheritor of the Roman, Macedonian, Persian and Babylonian empires) a few years earlier. Each of these empires took it from the Jews who only got it back after the Persians let them have it back when they defeated Babylon. The Biblical narrative said it belonged to the Jebusites when David's forces took it. Even when they had it, they would have to have paid tribute to Egypt as the Pharaohs claimed the whole area as far back as the 15th century BC - they wouldn't have got that without the use of force or threats.
I don't say this to have a dig about you or your point, which is valid and I am not wheeling myself out as some academic bully. East, West? Neither has the best of records.
So Dorse, where does the People's Republic of Judea come into this then?
We really dont have to go back too far. both sides can argue the toss about atrocities in the middle ages and further back but it in the western governments meddling in the 20th and 21st century that is the real cause of the current situation
Regarding the pilger article linked previously, it really doesnt matter whether the guy is left wing or right wing have a look at his record across decades, and how many times he has been proved to be correct when secret government documents have finally been revealed
here is a small part of the recent article for people that haven't read the whole thing.
-------------------------- Critical questions - such as why the security service MI5 maintained terrorist "assets" in Manchester and why the government did not warn the public of the threat in their midst - remain unanswered, deflected by the promise of an internal "review".
The alleged suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, was part of an extremist group, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, that thrived in Manchester and was cultivated and used by MI5 for more than 20 years.
The LIFG is proscribed by Britain as a terrorist organisation which seeks a "hardline Islamic state" in Libya and "is part of the wider global Islamist extremist movement, as inspired by al-Qaida".
The "smoking gun" is that when Theresa May was Home Secretary, LIFG jihadists were allowed to travel unhindered across Europe and encouraged to engage in "battle": first to remove Mu'ammar Gadaffi in Libya, then to join al-Qaida affiliated groups in Syria.
Last year, the FBI reportedly placed Abedi on a "terrorist watch list" and warned MI5 that his group was looking for a "political target" in Britain. Why wasn't he apprehended and the network around him prevented from planning and executing the atrocity on 22 May?
These questions arise because of an FBI leak that demolished the "lone wolf" spin in the wake of the 22 May attack - thus, the panicky, uncharacteristic outrage directed at Washington from London and Donald Trump's apology.
The Manchester atrocity lifts the rock of British foreign policy to reveal its Faustian alliance with extreme Islam, especially the sect known as Wahhabism or Salafism, whose principal custodian and banker is the oil kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Britain's biggest weapons customer.
This imperial marriage reaches back to the Second World War and the early days of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The aim of British policy was to stop pan-Arabism: Arab states developing a modern secularism, asserting their independence from the imperial west and controlling their resources. The creation of a rapacious Israel was meant to expedite this. Pan-Arabism has since been crushed; the goal now is division and conquest. In 2011, according to Middle East Eye, the LIFG in Manchester were known as the "Manchester boys". Implacably opposed to Mu'ammar Gadaffi, they were considered high risk and a number were under Home Office control orders - house arrest - when anti-Gadaffi demonstrations broke out in Libya, a country forged from myriad tribal enmities.
Suddenly the control orders were lifted. "I was allowed to go, no questions asked," said one LIFG member. MI5 returned their passports and counter-terrorism police at Heathrow airport were told to let them board their flights.
The overthrow of Gaddafi, who controlled Africa's largest oil reserves, had been long been planned in Washington and London. According to French intelligence, the LIFG made several assassination attempts on Gadaffi in the 1990s - bank-rolled by British intelligence. In March 2011, France, Britain and the US seized the opportunity of a "humanitarian intervention" and attacked Libya. They were joined by Nato under cover of a UN resolution to "protect civilians".
You just don't get it do you ? Why have I responded ? I have no idea.
Oh, I get it, if someone doesn't appeal to your point of view, your politics etc., then they are Tory scum, selfish, uncaring, looks only after number one and so on. Well not all people who would have a right of centre view of the world are like that, some buy £600 season tickets for complete strangers who they know have put in some good, some make charitable payments of around £3,000 per annum, some will always try to go that extra mile to help someone, some were brought up to work hard and appreciate the benefits of working hard, some were brought up to accept that not everybody is the same and whatever race, colour or religion everybody has a right to live their lives. And it is strange the bigotry that I find on this board mainly comes from the likes of you, Jim with his racist views against Muslims and Danny the R.
Oh and whilst on my Fûcking high horse tell me what you think about the latest political u-turn, a phrase that the Labour Party has consistently hit May with. This time it's Comrade Corbyn, since yesterday when his interview with the BBC after the Paris terrorist attacks when he opposed shoot to kill, went viral, all of a sudden he is telling the world that the police will have 'whatever force which is necessary'. Biggest u-turn of the election, or maybe he is lying through his teeth because h knows that what he has said previously will harm him massively given that three cowards had been thwarted by the use of police guns?
Yeh real easy to have a big go on message board though isn't it? Sit there at your keyboard and say what people should have done, would have done back in the day. If only everybody was a Millwall fan and wasn't so bloody soft and left wing and too busy on Instagram or X Factor this sort of thing would be stamped out immediately. That's the big problem here.
Heaven forbid any of us have to suffer that situation for real: guy with a big blade running towards us shouting about Allah; canisters strapped round him; mass panic all around, people running and scrambling this way and that, people screaming, people pushing, shoving, climbing over other people to get up a stair case or down an alley. You don't know if he's alone, you don't know if he's about to pull the pin, you don't know if the thing in his hand is the trigger so you don't know if punching him might blow the whole place up. You don't know what's going on in truth because two seconds ago you were settling into pint five of your Saturday night. You've got those two seconds, under the influence, to process all that.
You think you're capable of a nice, calm, rational reaction? You think you're just going to walk up to this guy, stick one on him, go back to the bar and finish your pint? Good on you. We'd all like to think we'd stride forward on the front foot swinging a bar stool.
But let's be honest. In all likelihood you'd be stricken with absolute fear, panic and shock. You've never experienced anything like this. You'd be absolutely shtting yourself. You wouldn't be in charge of your actions. You wouldn't be able to remember or recall afterwards what you did, what you said, where you went. You'd be absolutely fcking terrified, acting completely on instinct and survival mode. This isn't some dickhead spilling your pint in The British Queen in 1985 FFS.
And yeh some cnt of a journalist might shove a camera on you afterwards and ask you what it was like and you'd mumble or babble some incoherent, half-true, hazy, PTS sht about seeing a girl getting stabbed. And then some even bigger cnt of a cnt would then go on a football message board and say you should have done something about it like in the good old days.
Honestly the Monday Morning Quarter Back routine from the left and right on here after every incident like this is disgusting. Got all the answers have you? Know who to blame and how to solve it all? Think it would all be over by Friday if we just closed all the mosques (how?) and deported all the Muslims (to where?) do you? Think we should just all carry on as normal and "not let them win" and have a big concert and pray for a city and chair another fcking meeting of the fcking Cobra committee do you? Fantastic. Isn't it amazing that groups of people with decades of intelligence and law enforcement expertise with all the information at fingertips are struggling with this while all the (seemingly very simple) answers were available here all along, among the posters of the second busiest QPR message board.
My little brother's a copper in this borough. He's a boy. They give him a few months training, a truncheon, something that looks a bit like a car aerial, a stab proof vest, a succession of 12 hour shifts and strict instructions on not to chase anybody on a moped in case they crash and not to stop and search somebody that may cause them a political problem and that's his lot. Whenever it goes off in London our mum and me have his shift patterns on our phone to see if it's him involved. He's out there tonight. I'm sure he'd be all ears and grateful for the bar room wisdom of people who've never experienced anything like what he faces every single day but nevertheless think this would never have happened in the good old days if only people weren't so wet.
This post has been edited by an administrator
One thing I wouldn't do is stand there filming with a mobile phone in my hand watching women getting cut to pieces do I have the answers no, ive been on here as I responded to a poster who asked for my opinion and I didn't really want to post as I would get the normal old bollox , which judging by responses on here and from your merry band of left wing disciples I was about right
That's me done
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
One thing I wouldn't do is stand there filming with a mobile phone in my hand watching women getting cut to pieces do I have the answers no, ive been on here as I responded to a poster who asked for my opinion and I didn't really want to post as I would get the normal old bollox , which judging by responses on here and from your merry band of left wing disciples I was about right
That's me done
Another one bites the dust.
At this rate I'll be the only right winger in the village.
Six Arab countries including Saudi Arabia and Egypt have cut diplomatic ties with Qatar, accusing it of destabilising the region. They say Qatar backs militant groups including so-called Islamic State (IS) and al-Qaeda, which Qatar has denied. The Saudi state news agency SPA said Riyadh had closed its borders, severing land, sea and air contact with the tiny peninsula of Qatar. Qatar called the decision "unjustified" and with "no basis in fact". The unprecedented move is being seen as a significant split between powerful Gulf countries, who are also close US allies. It comes in the context of increased tensions between Gulf countries and their near-neighbour Iran. The Saudi statement accused Qatar of collaborating with Iranian-backed militias.
One thing I wouldn't do is stand there filming with a mobile phone in my hand watching women getting cut to pieces do I have the answers no, ive been on here as I responded to a poster who asked for my opinion and I didn't really want to post as I would get the normal old bollox , which judging by responses on here and from your merry band of left wing disciples I was about right
That's me done
Yeh it's all about left wing and right wing this, as always. Really helpful.
Agree with you about people filming it on mobile phones but criticising people for running away or doing whatever their brain decided to do in the split second between having a pint on Saturday night and having somebody rushing into the bar with a big knife and a load of canisters strapped to them is ridiculous. If it was as simple as everybody just standing up and beating them up nobody would ever be killed in a terrorist attack would they?
But, yeh, somebody's disagreed with you, so they must be a "left wing" or one of my "disciples" so off you flounce.
Oh, I get it, if someone doesn't appeal to your point of view, your politics etc., then they are Tory scum, selfish, uncaring, looks only after number one and so on. Well not all people who would have a right of centre view of the world are like that, some buy £600 season tickets for complete strangers who they know have put in some good, some make charitable payments of around £3,000 per annum, some will always try to go that extra mile to help someone, some were brought up to work hard and appreciate the benefits of working hard, some were brought up to accept that not everybody is the same and whatever race, colour or religion everybody has a right to live their lives. And it is strange the bigotry that I find on this board mainly comes from the likes of you, Jim with his racist views against Muslims and Danny the R.
Oh and whilst on my Fûcking high horse tell me what you think about the latest political u-turn, a phrase that the Labour Party has consistently hit May with. This time it's Comrade Corbyn, since yesterday when his interview with the BBC after the Paris terrorist attacks when he opposed shoot to kill, went viral, all of a sudden he is telling the world that the police will have 'whatever force which is necessary'. Biggest u-turn of the election, or maybe he is lying through his teeth because h knows that what he has said previously will harm him massively given that three cowards had been thwarted by the use of police guns?
You're very odd lately Dave, very loud and sweary accusing everyone of various nonsense. I'm not as open minded as I was 20 years ago, less trusting of other cultures I guess, but your casual accusation of me being a racist is as pathetic as it is laughable. Get some help you're losing the plot. I'm not without prejudice, and know very little of Muslim culture, despite muslims being in my family for 40 years, I struggle to comprehend it. Even the every day conversation sounds violent to me. I love the fact reggae music influenced the Clash back in the day, love the food and culture, love the fact The Specials in our youth managed to face down a resurrgent far right and the fact a stroll through London will bring you into contact with all kinds of cultures. I dont much care for religion of any sort, less so for Muslim religion. So define how that makes me a racist in your eyes when my suspicion of a religious group is just that, with nohing to do with race whatsoever? It is mad to allow young blokes to go out to Syria and Libya and return as trained fighters and bomb makers. That is what I am arguing for, tighter security and internment for those people that seek to kill in the name of whatever chosen god. You need to stop gobbing off and think about what you are saying, disgusting vague unfounded accusations with absolutely no supporting evidence and engage your brain first. Absolute weapon.
Well seeing as the first of the crusades was in 1095, I'd say the cobblers probably started just after then and if the proceeding years since then have been anything like our conduct just since 2003, I'd say the cobblers has yet to finish!
It's always easy for leaders to focus on the, 'how' is this happening, when the first question should be, 'why' is this happening?
But it's not part of the narrative that the Crusades were ultimately a failure is it?
After some early success and the creation of a few Christian enclaves, in the end the Holy Land wasn't recaptured from the 'Saracens' and remains in non-Christian lands to this day.
No, the narrative is that since your date of 1095 we've been kicking Near/Middle Eastern arse, because we can, on a 900-year winning streak with our superior weaponry and technology and oppressing the backward natives thereof.
It's never mentioned that in the 11th century and beyond the Muslim world was culturally and technologically in advance of Western Europe, or that precisely because of the Crusades we were exposed to these advances, which ultimately led to the Renaissance.
East and West have been locked in an existential struggle since at least the Battle of Marathon, which predates Christianity and Islam. Religion, as ever, is just a flag to pin on a millenia-old conflict, which has swung backwards and forwards many times.
We never hear about the million plus Western Europeans (including tens of thousands from the British Isles) captured for the Arabian/Islamic slave-trade up until the 19th century either do we ? A trade that predates Islam but was wholeheartedly incorporated into Islamic culture and doctrine, as we've seen again since the advent of Daesh.
Wouldn't you say that alone is worth holding a grudge over, one just as 'valid' as those the jihadis have against the West?
Six Arab countries including Saudi Arabia and Egypt have cut diplomatic ties with Qatar, accusing it of destabilising the region. They say Qatar backs militant groups including so-called Islamic State (IS) and al-Qaeda, which Qatar has denied. The Saudi state news agency SPA said Riyadh had closed its borders, severing land, sea and air contact with the tiny peninsula of Qatar. Qatar called the decision "unjustified" and with "no basis in fact". The unprecedented move is being seen as a significant split between powerful Gulf countries, who are also close US allies. It comes in the context of increased tensions between Gulf countries and their near-neighbour Iran. The Saudi statement accused Qatar of collaborating with Iranian-backed militias.
This too is interesting, the report is unlikely to see the light of day which usually means compromising details in relation to potential loss of arms sales to Saudi. So the timing of the isolation of Qatar is very interesting. We've known since Setember 11th that the Saudis have been heavily involved in nationals involved in various attacks and funding them. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/05/theresa-may-urged-not-to-suppress-
I am left wing and was part of the stop the war demonstrations against the Iraq war. However what appears is more radicalised British citizens and I feel looking at foreign interventions gives them too much leverage and excuses for their actions.
This too is interesting, the report is unlikely to see the light of day which usually means compromising details in relation to potential loss of arms sales to Saudi. So the timing of the isolation of Qatar is very interesting. We've known since Setember 11th that the Saudis have been heavily involved in nationals involved in various attacks and funding them. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/05/theresa-may-urged-not-to-suppress-
It wont get published, somebody needs to spill this whole can of worms so a proper cleanup can begin.
May says "enough is enough" . I agree . lets have it all out in the open so we can see what we are really dealing with, wont happen though
Within 5 years of Muhammad's death, the Caliph Umar took Jerusalem from the Byzantines. But it had only been recovered from the Sassanids (non-Muslim precursor empire to that of the Caliph, which itself was the inheritor of the Roman, Macedonian, Persian and Babylonian empires) a few years earlier. Each of these empires took it from the Jews who only got it back after the Persians let them have it back when they defeated Babylon. The Biblical narrative said it belonged to the Jebusites when David's forces took it. Even when they had it, they would have to have paid tribute to Egypt as the Pharaohs claimed the whole area as far back as the 15th century BC - they wouldn't have got that without the use of force or threats.
I don't say this to have a dig about you or your point, which is valid and I am not wheeling myself out as some academic bully. East, West? Neither has the best of records.
1095
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
So that's your date of convenience and you're sticking to it then.
The initial expansion of the caliphates into europe was halted in central france and southern alps at at the battle of tours in 732 after which they where pushed back out of france and northern spain . Possibly a better watershed date between christianity and Islam
I’m in the Lower Loft every home match if you want to come and say hello, or for night games I sometimes go into SAR. Happy to put a face to the name, though small talk might be a bit awkward if you’re sueing me.
If I’m reading you right and it’s a straightener you’re after, maybe we can have it in the centre circle as half-time entertainment. Two middle aged men having at it would probably be more of a giggle to watch than the actual football.
Your posts bore me because you begin with a conclusion —Â people should support the Tory party —Â and then fit an argument around it. So it’s hard to learn much from what you say, because it’s obviously party political, with all the editing of facts, leaps of faith and distraction tactics involved in a party political broadcast. If Theresa May cuts 20,000 OB, well, we didn’t need them anyway, and if as home secretary she oversaw the Manchester bomber coming in and out of Libya at 16 years old, well, isn’t Emily Thornberry a nasty woman?
As a Londoner bringing up a family —Â so at what feels like a tangible risk of being caught up in an incident like last night — these attacks make me sick, angry and scared, and because of that my first response is not to see it in terms of promoting a political party. Speaking less as an occasional Labour voter and more a husband and father, more police on the streets is one of the few realistic steps that might actually make a difference, at least in the short term. Some of the other ideas on here just seem to come out of a desire to crack heads, which is understandable but unhelpful. Internment is proven not to work, and while I’d like to see the railways nationalised my enthusiasm for the state doesn’t extend to wanting to live under the Stasi.
Of course ISIS are animals, of course you can lower the scumbags responsible for Saturday into a very, very small box at Belmarsh then lose the key. But as a Londoner I don’t want what you want for my city, and I’d be surprised if many others do either, the same way most Mancunians don’t want it, because it’s not what Britain should be about AND it won’t work.
I really don’t see myself as ideological, but as you’re determined to frame all responses to what we’re facing in terms of party politics, then fine - every time I see or read commentary from an actual security expert rather than a politician or columnist, it’s clear the Home Office under May made some very serious errors of judgement that have really helped make a bad situation worse, and that government policy is still not fit for purpose. I give much less of a fk about Jeremy Corbyn than I do my family, and on that level I sincerely and wholeheartedly do not trust the political party you promote on here with their safety.
Happy to leave it there and ignore each others posts from now on. We can skip the handshake.
Police numbers in line with numbers in 2003. 2009 was peak over period 2003 to 2016. That's where the 20,000 comes from. Increasing police numbers may be part of the answer but how do we know it's 20,000 and not 50,000 or even maybe right number is where we are today or is it less? The majority of stuff I've read and listened to from Muslims seem to suggest that it is investing and adapting the Prevent strategy. That's what will make the difference and keep the country safe and stop people getting radicalized.
The initial expansion of the caliphates into europe was halted in central france and southern alps at at the battle of tours in 732 after which they where pushed back out of france and northern spain . Possibly a better watershed date between christianity and Islam
Bowlocks, balderdash,bunkum and bullspit! Reconquista begun by Basque Asturian Pelayo/Pelagius with his back to the mountains at Covadonga in 722 - a true watershed date.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2017 11:48]
'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please.
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