| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 19:23 - Sep 26 with 4832 views | daveB |
4 wins in a row woukd be lovely, you have to go back to 2020/21 season for last time we won 4 in a row. We beat Watford,Blackburn Rovers, Brentford and Bournemouth
Last time we did it in front of crowds was the 2010/11 season |  | |  |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 19:50 - Sep 26 with 4712 views | KensalT |
Great piece as always Clive.
PL clubs have already voted to ban fully leveraged buyouts and cap them at 65% of the value of the club:
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Global/2023/06/15/premier-league-tak
I'm not a finance expert so don't take anything I say on the subject as gospel. However....
While I agree with your overall sentiment about FFP/PSR serving only to ringfence the power of the elite clubs and leveraged buyouts being detrimental to the interests of the clubs, I'm not sure your proposed solutions for rogue/incompetent/reckless owners are workable.
"Operator of last resort" is used in the railway industry, but railways are "natural monopolies" and aren't directly competing with each other. If several clubs in the same division effectively came under the same ownership there would be all sorts of concerns about the integrity of the sport and the competition.
Appointing administrators to run clubs is an expensive business. They effectively take a lot of money out of clubs. In the long run they don't do much to help low paid employees or small local businesses who are dependent on that club paying its bills.
Your concerns about benevolent wealthy owners and "single points of failure" are probably shared by a lot of football clubs in this country.
Obviously there have been more than a few chancers but problems can arise through unforeseen circumstances.
You cite the case of Covid impacting foreign owners who then use their football clubs to subsidise their other businesses.
It has also been the case that clubs with Chinese and Indian owners have gotten into strife because their respective governments placed restrictions on overseas investment and moving funds overseas.
The only real answer to that is to make the clubs sustainable. And we all know that's a fairytale as far as the Championship is concerned.
So lots of very real problems but no really easy answers I don't think! [Post edited 26 Sep 20:18]
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:30 - Sep 26 with 4540 views | Northernr |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 19:50 - Sep 26 by KensalT |
Great piece as always Clive.
PL clubs have already voted to ban fully leveraged buyouts and cap them at 65% of the value of the club:
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Global/2023/06/15/premier-league-tak
I'm not a finance expert so don't take anything I say on the subject as gospel. However....
While I agree with your overall sentiment about FFP/PSR serving only to ringfence the power of the elite clubs and leveraged buyouts being detrimental to the interests of the clubs, I'm not sure your proposed solutions for rogue/incompetent/reckless owners are workable.
"Operator of last resort" is used in the railway industry, but railways are "natural monopolies" and aren't directly competing with each other. If several clubs in the same division effectively came under the same ownership there would be all sorts of concerns about the integrity of the sport and the competition.
Appointing administrators to run clubs is an expensive business. They effectively take a lot of money out of clubs. In the long run they don't do much to help low paid employees or small local businesses who are dependent on that club paying its bills.
Your concerns about benevolent wealthy owners and "single points of failure" are probably shared by a lot of football clubs in this country.
Obviously there have been more than a few chancers but problems can arise through unforeseen circumstances.
You cite the case of Covid impacting foreign owners who then use their football clubs to subsidise their other businesses.
It has also been the case that clubs with Chinese and Indian owners have gotten into strife because their respective governments placed restrictions on overseas investment and moving funds overseas.
The only real answer to that is to make the clubs sustainable. And we all know that's a fairytale as far as the Championship is concerned.
So lots of very real problems but no really easy answers I don't think! [Post edited 26 Sep 20:18]
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Well administration is the ‘operator of last resort’ we have now, I’m basically saying you should be able to force that, or a version of that, and remove the owner. It’s blatantly obvious Sheff Wed are bankrupt, they shouldn’t be allowed to continue as they are.
My comparison with trains is only in so much as football clubs are different, more vital, to a community than your common business like an estate agent or corner shop or whatever it is, and there need to be ways of protecting them.
But totally agree there are no easy answers - not a football regulator, not fan ownership… it’s complicated. Anybody who pretends otherwise is fibbing. |  | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:43 - Sep 26 with 4472 views | JamesB1979 |
Hate it when you have a positive match prediction Clive. This is when we normally get the stuffing kicked out of us. 4 wins in a row? We’re not allowed nice things | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:45 - Sep 26 with 4471 views | Northernr |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:43 - Sep 26 by JamesB1979 |
Hate it when you have a positive match prediction Clive. This is when we normally get the stuffing kicked out of us. 4 wins in a row? We’re not allowed nice things |
I was told to be more positive. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:52 - Sep 26 with 4430 views | JamesB1979 |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:45 - Sep 26 by Northernr |
I was told to be more positive. |
I’m more nervous about this game than the other 6 we’ve had…..exception maybe Charlton. I’m trying to remember the way I felt 3 weeks ago. [Post edited 26 Sep 21:03]
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:53 - Sep 26 with 4433 views | KensalT |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:30 - Sep 26 by Northernr |
Well administration is the ‘operator of last resort’ we have now, I’m basically saying you should be able to force that, or a version of that, and remove the owner. It’s blatantly obvious Sheff Wed are bankrupt, they shouldn’t be allowed to continue as they are.
My comparison with trains is only in so much as football clubs are different, more vital, to a community than your common business like an estate agent or corner shop or whatever it is, and there need to be ways of protecting them.
But totally agree there are no easy answers - not a football regulator, not fan ownership… it’s complicated. Anybody who pretends otherwise is fibbing. |
I think the key difference is that if a railway goes under it's a problem for the whole country whereas if a football club goes under it's a problem for the local economy.
I appreciate that you are trying to put forward constructive solutions and all I've done is pick holes in your arguments and rained on your parade without trying to provide any umbrellas of my own.
I don't think there are any easy answers under the current system.
English football has become a global business generating large sums of money but only a small handful of clubs benefit from that while all the other clubs find their costs for players and agents getting massively inflated and the clubs at our level getting into financial difficulties gambling vast sums to try and get to the top table where all the serious money is.
And even if we did get to the PL we would just be making up the numbers and in all likelihood would be back here again a year later.
None of the economics make sense for a club like us at the moment.
We are blessed with incredibly wealthy owners. If they were so minded they could sink vast sums into establishing us a PL club. But the FFP/P&S rules won't let them.
In American Major League sports they have a very different business model. OK, it's a closed shop with no promotion and relegation. But they have always recognised that sport has to be competitive to be meaningful and they have always taken measures to redistribute wealth and try to share the trophies around.
Football has gone completely the other way. A small elite dominating the wealth and the trophies while the rest struggle to survive and even the smaller PL clubs are happy just to make up the numbers provided they can keep the privilege of playing (losing to) the big boys.
Part of me thinks football in this country might be better off if the big boys did just bugger off into a European/Global Super League and left the rest of us to get our house in order. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 21:11 - Sep 26 with 4362 views | Andybrat |
Tough stuff and tough read, well written, hoping it won’t happen but imagine they can’t fulfill their fixtures, what happens with the points from played games? Thinking this might be a reality. Also wondering why they haven’t had a points deduction already? Last weeks result for them was a miracle, my head is saying miracles don’t happen twice. Anyone know the answers to the two questions? | | | |
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 21:25 - Sep 26 with 4303 views | Rsole |
Feel the REDACTED girth of an unlubed, 3 game week, as it grinds in regardless.
No doubt the brief and unrewarding, yet still edgy relief of a Milking Cup exit, has put us into a dominant position.
Rested, restrained and obedient - we search for more direct penetration and progression. |  |
| Those possessed by devils, try and keep them under control a bit, can't you ?
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 06:42 - Sep 27 with 3433 views | thehat |
Brilliant Clive and two very sensible options for football clubs and thier owners going forward.
As you say whilst not perfect thank god we have the owners we do. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 06:43 - Sep 27 with 3423 views | stowmarketrange |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 20:53 - Sep 26 by KensalT |
I think the key difference is that if a railway goes under it's a problem for the whole country whereas if a football club goes under it's a problem for the local economy.
I appreciate that you are trying to put forward constructive solutions and all I've done is pick holes in your arguments and rained on your parade without trying to provide any umbrellas of my own.
I don't think there are any easy answers under the current system.
English football has become a global business generating large sums of money but only a small handful of clubs benefit from that while all the other clubs find their costs for players and agents getting massively inflated and the clubs at our level getting into financial difficulties gambling vast sums to try and get to the top table where all the serious money is.
And even if we did get to the PL we would just be making up the numbers and in all likelihood would be back here again a year later.
None of the economics make sense for a club like us at the moment.
We are blessed with incredibly wealthy owners. If they were so minded they could sink vast sums into establishing us a PL club. But the FFP/P&S rules won't let them.
In American Major League sports they have a very different business model. OK, it's a closed shop with no promotion and relegation. But they have always recognised that sport has to be competitive to be meaningful and they have always taken measures to redistribute wealth and try to share the trophies around.
Football has gone completely the other way. A small elite dominating the wealth and the trophies while the rest struggle to survive and even the smaller PL clubs are happy just to make up the numbers provided they can keep the privilege of playing (losing to) the big boys.
Part of me thinks football in this country might be better off if the big boys did just bugger off into a European/Global Super League and left the rest of us to get our house in order. |
Would it make much difference if the top clubs went to a European super league?Or would the next level of big clubs dominate instead?And would Sky pay as much for a product that wasn’t as good as it was?
I think football has gone too far down the financial route to ever be as competitive as it used to be,unless owners with money were allowed to invest in their clubs properly. |  | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 08:36 - Sep 27 with 3085 views | joe90 |
Great preview as ever.
Football finance is a total mess and the relationship between the (legacy) fans and owners is increasingly strained. The current model is geared towards an international market and the football league is being rapidly left behind.
Players wages and agents fee’s are a massive problem, I don’t know how realistic it is to impose a salary cap or new ownership rules and still expect someone to invest millions every month with the threat of having it all taken away if it goes tits up. There’s so many aspect of football that aren’t compatible, seems impossible to square the circle.
Anyway, as unfortunate as the Wednesday situation is, I hope we smash them today! [Post edited 27 Sep 8:45]
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 08:45 - Sep 27 with 3058 views | Northernr |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 08:36 - Sep 27 by joe90 |
Great preview as ever.
Football finance is a total mess and the relationship between the (legacy) fans and owners is increasingly strained. The current model is geared towards an international market and the football league is being rapidly left behind.
Players wages and agents fee’s are a massive problem, I don’t know how realistic it is to impose a salary cap or new ownership rules and still expect someone to invest millions every month with the threat of having it all taken away if it goes tits up. There’s so many aspect of football that aren’t compatible, seems impossible to square the circle.
Anyway, as unfortunate as the Wednesday situation is, I hope we smash them today! [Post edited 27 Sep 8:45]
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This is it isn’t it, it’s so far gone how would you go about a salary cap?
I think a lot of fans would like that 49/51 German rule here. But how would you bring it in?
It’s like one of those problems they used to set you at school - if you wanted to change the UK to drive on the right, how would you do it? V simple idea, horrendously difficult to enact. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 09:26 - Sep 27 with 2877 views | KensalT |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 06:43 - Sep 27 by stowmarketrange |
Would it make much difference if the top clubs went to a European super league?Or would the next level of big clubs dominate instead?And would Sky pay as much for a product that wasn’t as good as it was?
I think football has gone too far down the financial route to ever be as competitive as it used to be,unless owners with money were allowed to invest in their clubs properly. |
The "Big" TV money would follow the big clubs.
In truth I think it's just a matter of time before the big clubs start demanding the right to negotiate their own TV deals. But that's another discussion entirely.
But it's the fact that PL clubs get so much of the TV money that creates financial problems for clubs further down the pecking order.
If the playing field was levelled out it might be better for all of us. Not that there's an easy way to bring that about. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 09:40 - Sep 27 with 2800 views | KensalT |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 08:45 - Sep 27 by Northernr |
This is it isn’t it, it’s so far gone how would you go about a salary cap?
I think a lot of fans would like that 49/51 German rule here. But how would you bring it in?
It’s like one of those problems they used to set you at school - if you wanted to change the UK to drive on the right, how would you do it? V simple idea, horrendously difficult to enact. |
In this country we seem to talk about Germany's 50+1 football club ownership rule like it has been around forever.
In fact it has only been around since 1998:
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/faq/what-are-the-rules-and-regulations-of-soccer/5
And there have already been challenges to this in Germany on the basis that it is anti-competitive:
https://competitionlawinsights.twobirds.com/post/102kr6g/german-footballs-501-ru
So far changes have been resisted. But for how long?
The Germans also have restrictions on third party ownership of law firms. This has also been challenged in the courts but the Court of Justice of the EU ruled that those laws are not anti-competitive:
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/european-court-delivers-potentially-fatal-blow
So it's not just German football where attempts are being made to change their competition laws.
The same anti-competitive arguments were used in American courts to weaken FIFA's restrictions on domestic fixtures being played overseas. La Liga clubs are already talking about hosting league games in America. And it's not difficult to imagine Birmingham and Wrexham and the PL elite all taking a keen interest in how that plays out.
The times are changing and the big clubs are getting more and more powerful and wealthy with it. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 09:49 - Sep 27 with 2762 views | Marshy67 |
Reading this piece Clive, perhaps it's worth stating that with all the moaning and groaning about our owners over the years-even Jim Gregory suffered abuse from the boo-boys- Rangers have only spent 3 of the last 58 seasons out of the top two tiers of English football.
Some achievement for a club of our size. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 09:55 - Sep 27 with 2736 views | EastR |
Always nervous ahead of th Barry Bannon Vs QPR XI fixtures | |
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 10:14 - Sep 27 with 2661 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 08:45 - Sep 27 by Northernr |
This is it isn’t it, it’s so far gone how would you go about a salary cap?
I think a lot of fans would like that 49/51 German rule here. But how would you bring it in?
It’s like one of those problems they used to set you at school - if you wanted to change the UK to drive on the right, how would you do it? V simple idea, horrendously difficult to enact. |
Simple, all commercial vehicles transition 1st January followed by all private vehicles the following week... oh wait... |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 10:29 - Sep 27 with 2593 views | derbyhoop |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 09:26 - Sep 27 by KensalT |
The "Big" TV money would follow the big clubs.
In truth I think it's just a matter of time before the big clubs start demanding the right to negotiate their own TV deals. But that's another discussion entirely.
But it's the fact that PL clubs get so much of the TV money that creates financial problems for clubs further down the pecking order.
If the playing field was levelled out it might be better for all of us. Not that there's an easy way to bring that about. |
The middle paragraph hits the nail on the head. Sides relegated from PL usually have a greater revenue, from parachute payments, that outstrips 80+% of Championship clubs.
That means the odds are skewed before the season starts. Take 24/25 as an example. 3 promoted clubs all got relegated. 2 of the relegated clubs finished in top 3. Luton the big outlier.
Predictions for this season had Ipswich, Leicester and Southampton all challenging for promotion. So far, it doesn't look like it, but see what happens by May. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 10:34 - Sep 27 with 2596 views | terryb |
Thanks Clive, possibly the least humerous match preview that you've written, but certainly one of the most importtant.
I was a firm believer in FFP etc as a way to keep clubs out of serious financial problems, but I can now see as many/more issues that it has evoked than what it has solved. Like you, I can't see why "gifts" to a football club can't be regarded as income rather than as a loan, whether they are given by a club owner or a member of the population. Since the formation of The Football League, clubs have relied on the generosity of the owner/main shareholder & the vast majority of clubs survived without too much hardship. It also gave us, the supporters, a chance to dream, like Del Boy, that come next year we will be millionaires!
Now to the actual game. I hope that all of you going have a great afternoon (that would mean we've won!), but in the past three(?) seassons we've managed to turn regular victories against Wednesday to inevitable defeats. Apart from the Alfie Lloyd equaliser of course! | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 11:26 - Sep 27 with 2446 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Silly idea, but could they not convert all the grounds and training facilities into some kind of community asset?
Then any owners only own the playing contracts? They can spend what the hell they like without leverage on the club and its assets?
To simple? | |
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 11:40 - Sep 27 with 2410 views | Northernr |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 11:26 - Sep 27 by Wilkinswatercarrier |
Silly idea, but could they not convert all the grounds and training facilities into some kind of community asset?
Then any owners only own the playing contracts? They can spend what the hell they like without leverage on the club and its assets?
To simple? |
Haven’t we got some kind of planning covenant on ours? Probably saved us a couple of times. | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 12:30 - Sep 27 with 2249 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 11:26 - Sep 27 by Wilkinswatercarrier |
Silly idea, but could they not convert all the grounds and training facilities into some kind of community asset?
Then any owners only own the playing contracts? They can spend what the hell they like without leverage on the club and its assets?
To simple? |
Not too simple at all.
Most of the ideas that would save football sound complicated, but they're not.
1) As you say, grounds owned by councils.
2) 51% ownership of clubs, paid for by councils using Compulsory Purchase Orders, and sold to fans over 10-20 years.
3) Owners can spend, as Clive says, what they want as long as the spending is ringfenced.
When very rich or very powerful people want something it can be easily achieved, when anyone else wants something we are patted on the head and told it's just too complicated.
It really isn't. [Post edited 27 Sep 12:41]
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| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 13:05 - Sep 27 with 2091 views | KensalT |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 12:30 - Sep 27 by BrianMcCarthy |
Not too simple at all.
Most of the ideas that would save football sound complicated, but they're not.
1) As you say, grounds owned by councils.
2) 51% ownership of clubs, paid for by councils using Compulsory Purchase Orders, and sold to fans over 10-20 years.
3) Owners can spend, as Clive says, what they want as long as the spending is ringfenced.
When very rich or very powerful people want something it can be easily achieved, when anyone else wants something we are patted on the head and told it's just too complicated.
It really isn't. [Post edited 27 Sep 12:41]
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How much would it all cost?
And where would you draw the line?
Mel Morris valued Derby's ground at £80m, based on the assumption that they were going to put a roof on top!
A property developer would probably have an even greater valuation for the land (particularly a plum West London site like QPR), and current owners would argue that compulsory purchase denies them the potential to move to a new site and develop the current site, and therefore that should be factored in to the compensation they receive.
How many clubs would be bound by this?
Even if this was just the current 92 clubs the cost would be enormous. And every time a new club got promoted to the league the owners would have their most valuable asset ripped away.
And then you have to think about what it says about our country to foreign investors if valuable land starts being taken into public ownership. Once you set the precedent for football then why not other industries? And once that happens foreign investors start looking elsewhere to invest.
It might sound simple but it's never gonna happen here.
In Italy they do mostly have council owned grounds.
A few years ago the Guardian wrote a piece arguing that this was what was holding Italian clubs back:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-gentleman-ultra/2015/oct/29/italian-clu
"The realisation that the existing stadiums are holding back Serie A clubs has started to take hold and it is not just the most famous clubs that have put plans in place to modernise. Along with the revamp of Udinese’s Stadio Friuli, Torino recently laid the first brick in their new Filadelfia stadium, which is just a stone’s throw from their current ground at the Stadio Olimpico in Turin.
There is a long way to go for clubs in Italy to get their grounds on par with the European elite, and Italian bureaucracy can prove a stumbling block on the way to progress, as proved in the case of Berlusconi’s Milan. If you compare the Rossoneri’s €24.9m matchday income to that of fellow Emirates sponsored club Arsenal’s €119.8m per season, you can clearly see the gulf between the two. It is worth noting, however, that season tickets cost between £1,000 and £2,000 at the Emirates stadium – a pricing structure that would not be viable in Italy.
Despite this, if Italian clubs can continue to improve and even own their stadiums, freeing themselves from the oppressive cost of council stadium ownership, the league will begin to attract further investment. A return to European dominance of the late 1980s and 1990s could be on the cards." | | | |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 13:12 - Sep 27 with 2064 views | KensalT |
| Owls’ problems coming home to roost – Preview on 13:05 - Sep 27 by KensalT |
How much would it all cost?
And where would you draw the line?
Mel Morris valued Derby's ground at £80m, based on the assumption that they were going to put a roof on top!
A property developer would probably have an even greater valuation for the land (particularly a plum West London site like QPR), and current owners would argue that compulsory purchase denies them the potential to move to a new site and develop the current site, and therefore that should be factored in to the compensation they receive.
How many clubs would be bound by this?
Even if this was just the current 92 clubs the cost would be enormous. And every time a new club got promoted to the league the owners would have their most valuable asset ripped away.
And then you have to think about what it says about our country to foreign investors if valuable land starts being taken into public ownership. Once you set the precedent for football then why not other industries? And once that happens foreign investors start looking elsewhere to invest.
It might sound simple but it's never gonna happen here.
In Italy they do mostly have council owned grounds.
A few years ago the Guardian wrote a piece arguing that this was what was holding Italian clubs back:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-gentleman-ultra/2015/oct/29/italian-clu
"The realisation that the existing stadiums are holding back Serie A clubs has started to take hold and it is not just the most famous clubs that have put plans in place to modernise. Along with the revamp of Udinese’s Stadio Friuli, Torino recently laid the first brick in their new Filadelfia stadium, which is just a stone’s throw from their current ground at the Stadio Olimpico in Turin.
There is a long way to go for clubs in Italy to get their grounds on par with the European elite, and Italian bureaucracy can prove a stumbling block on the way to progress, as proved in the case of Berlusconi’s Milan. If you compare the Rossoneri’s €24.9m matchday income to that of fellow Emirates sponsored club Arsenal’s €119.8m per season, you can clearly see the gulf between the two. It is worth noting, however, that season tickets cost between £1,000 and £2,000 at the Emirates stadium – a pricing structure that would not be viable in Italy.
Despite this, if Italian clubs can continue to improve and even own their stadiums, freeing themselves from the oppressive cost of council stadium ownership, the league will begin to attract further investment. A return to European dominance of the late 1980s and 1990s could be on the cards." |
Oh, and one more thing.
Most councils are skint.
Hammersmith and Fulham has three football clubs within its boundaries. Two of them have been redeveloped at great cost.
How much would buying those grounds add to the Council Tax bill? Not to mention then being liable for ongoing maintenance.
Never, ever happening. | | | |
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