| the golden generation England debate 17:32 - Oct 10 with 6792 views | themodfather |
so as many suspected the beckham era was riddled with divides, club v country, north v south , doesn't surprise me as many managers are not english, why would fergie want us to do well? or encourage his players at international level?
reports had come up about card games leading to huge debts between players and friction there.
south Africa world cup saw rooney rowing with terry and lampard and gerrard defended them , along the lines of soft southern fairies? as an england fan desperate to see us win a cup before i am gone, this riles me so much .
then again the Dutch implode often , is it that hard to forget egos, club issues for a month ?
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| the golden generation England debate a on 10:36 - Oct 15 with 2244 views | Snipper |
| the golden generation England debate a on 16:59 - Oct 13 by numptydumpty |
And yet Southgate is massively maligned
Like Bobby Robson, before him, he will get the adulation his achievements deserve 20 years after the event.
Bobby was absolutely mauled in 1986 and 1990. Close to not progressing from the group stages in both world cups and in 1990, Platts wonder goal in the last minute of extra time, ensured progress from round of 16.
Time changes peoples belief systems, especially if more recent results are worse. [Post edited 13 Oct 17:00]
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Southgate done well ditching a lot of the deadwood from the team, and then adding some good youngsters as replacements. The World Cup in 2018 was a breath of fresh air and it actually united the nation, and dare I say, made us fall in love with the national team again.
Saying that, we were in one of the easiest groups imaginable, and our route couldn’t have been handled picked any better. Croatia in the semis proved a bridge too far though.
The 2020 Euro’s (2021) we had another easy group, and another easy pathway to the final. We played a decent Italy in a home final, and scored after 2 minutes. We should’ve gone for their jugular at this point. We were playing against an ageing defence who were there for the taking. I’ve never forgiven Southgate for that.
Ok, we reached the final of last year’s Euro’s in Germany. But we were bloody fortunate to get that far. We needed a 96th minute equaliser from Jude Bellingham to take Slovakia to extra time. Up until then, we were bloody dire the whole tournament. Southgate was a lucky manager in tournaments with the groups and subsequent routes to the final. Apart from the 2022 World Cup, where we met France in the quarters, we had very very kind routes to the latter stages.
Southgate started something, and I’m grateful for that. We look as though we’re now bearing the fruit of that. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 11:05 - Oct 15 with 2119 views | SydneyRs |
| the golden generation England debate a on 09:57 - Oct 15 by francisbowles |
Didn't the players persuade him to tear up the game model and move to a three at the back with Mark Wright as the 'sweeper'? |
Yes something like that. QPR had also used that system successfully not long before that world cup.
The group games in 1990 were absolutely dire. It was almost at the point of having to draw lots to see who progressed as it had been all drawn games. England managed to beat Egypt 1-0 meaning everyone but Egypt progressed from the group. | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 11:38 - Oct 15 with 2032 views | daveB |
Part of the issue for that team was that there were several other very good teams around as well. The French had a ridiculous side with Zidane, Viera, Henry etc, Brazil had some incredible players, Argentina, Germany all really good as were Portugal. They got pretty far in the 2002,2004 and 2006 tournaments just couldn't make the last steps
Lots of things they could have done different but in 2002 we had players like Danny Mills, Trevor Sinclair Nicky Butt and Emile Heskey in the team against the likes Rivaldo,Ronaldinhio, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos etc
Even in 2006 the one we could have done better in that Portugal team who beat us was a really good one
For me it's about how strong your bench is, we had a great first 11 but when we had to make changes the drop off was really big, thats not something you can say now as we have a very good squad and is part of why we've been a lot better the last few tournaments |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 11:51 - Oct 15 with 1972 views | daveB |
| the golden generation England debate a on 10:36 - Oct 15 by Snipper |
Southgate done well ditching a lot of the deadwood from the team, and then adding some good youngsters as replacements. The World Cup in 2018 was a breath of fresh air and it actually united the nation, and dare I say, made us fall in love with the national team again.
Saying that, we were in one of the easiest groups imaginable, and our route couldn’t have been handled picked any better. Croatia in the semis proved a bridge too far though.
The 2020 Euro’s (2021) we had another easy group, and another easy pathway to the final. We played a decent Italy in a home final, and scored after 2 minutes. We should’ve gone for their jugular at this point. We were playing against an ageing defence who were there for the taking. I’ve never forgiven Southgate for that.
Ok, we reached the final of last year’s Euro’s in Germany. But we were bloody fortunate to get that far. We needed a 96th minute equaliser from Jude Bellingham to take Slovakia to extra time. Up until then, we were bloody dire the whole tournament. Southgate was a lucky manager in tournaments with the groups and subsequent routes to the final. Apart from the 2022 World Cup, where we met France in the quarters, we had very very kind routes to the latter stages.
Southgate started something, and I’m grateful for that. We look as though we’re now bearing the fruit of that. |
It makes me laugh all this we were lucky with this fortunate with that, can we not just give the team and manager some credit for getting as far as they did.
Was the group in 2018 that easy? Belgium also got to the semi finals, obviously Panama were crap but Tunisia gave us a good game. At the time we hadn't won a knockout game at a tournament for 12 years so whoever we played would not be easy. It wasn't the elite teams but Colombia were a tough side, we have a dreadful record against Sweden and Croatia are a very good side who got to the Semi finals again in 2022
In 2020 we had Croatia, Czech Republic and Scotland, wouldn't call that easy then had to beat Germany which no matter how good they are is a huge test for England. Ukraine were crap on the night but Denmark were an excellent side.
in 2022 we had Wales, USA and Iran which was the easiest one we had under Southgate imo but Senegal were no mugs and African champions and then had a very good French side who we were unlucky not to beat.
even in 2024 we had Denmark who are decent and Serbia are no mugs either in the group. The Swiss are a very good side in the quarter finals and the Dutch in the semis
I'm not sure who people expect us to play in these things. It's very rare you have to play only elite teams to win something.
Look at the last World Cup, Argentina had Australia, Holland and Croatia, 2 of those are apparently crap when England play them | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 12:10 - Oct 15 with 1905 views | rbee |
Plenty of credit from me with what Gareth Southgate achieved with the England team. He united the squad and we actually went in to tournaments expecting to do well.
However his cautious tactics and late substitutions meant England didn't win anything under his leadership and we should of done, really should have done.
As a quick aside I think Southgate should manage Man Utd. Southgate has already had the biggest job in English football so it makes sense that he should be considered for the second biggest job. He won't win them trophies but he will stabalise them and get them moving forward once again. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 12:35 - Oct 15 with 1836 views | MrSheen |
The talent pipeline is ridiculous now. Someone like Angel Gomes can get a game before I’d barely heard of him, look completely at home, then disappear down the side of the armchair and not be missed. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 13:15 - Oct 15 with 1739 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| the golden generation England debate on 12:10 - Oct 15 by rbee |
Plenty of credit from me with what Gareth Southgate achieved with the England team. He united the squad and we actually went in to tournaments expecting to do well.
However his cautious tactics and late substitutions meant England didn't win anything under his leadership and we should of done, really should have done.
As a quick aside I think Southgate should manage Man Utd. Southgate has already had the biggest job in English football so it makes sense that he should be considered for the second biggest job. He won't win them trophies but he will stabalise them and get them moving forward once again. |
I think so too.
I'm enjoying it, but United need a overhaul like England did.
My worry is that Jim Radcliffe doesn't seem like a hands off kind of guy to me though, which is ultimately what that club needs. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 13:59 - Oct 15 with 1661 views | daveB |
| the golden generation England debate on 12:10 - Oct 15 by rbee |
Plenty of credit from me with what Gareth Southgate achieved with the England team. He united the squad and we actually went in to tournaments expecting to do well.
However his cautious tactics and late substitutions meant England didn't win anything under his leadership and we should of done, really should have done.
As a quick aside I think Southgate should manage Man Utd. Southgate has already had the biggest job in English football so it makes sense that he should be considered for the second biggest job. He won't win them trophies but he will stabalise them and get them moving forward once again. |
Southgate would be perfect for them, should have got the job a year ago, he'll steady them and get them back regularly in the champions league. Not sexy enough for them though | | | |
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| the golden generation England debate a on 14:21 - Oct 15 with 1621 views | Snipper |
| the golden generation England debate a on 11:51 - Oct 15 by daveB |
It makes me laugh all this we were lucky with this fortunate with that, can we not just give the team and manager some credit for getting as far as they did.
Was the group in 2018 that easy? Belgium also got to the semi finals, obviously Panama were crap but Tunisia gave us a good game. At the time we hadn't won a knockout game at a tournament for 12 years so whoever we played would not be easy. It wasn't the elite teams but Colombia were a tough side, we have a dreadful record against Sweden and Croatia are a very good side who got to the Semi finals again in 2022
In 2020 we had Croatia, Czech Republic and Scotland, wouldn't call that easy then had to beat Germany which no matter how good they are is a huge test for England. Ukraine were crap on the night but Denmark were an excellent side.
in 2022 we had Wales, USA and Iran which was the easiest one we had under Southgate imo but Senegal were no mugs and African champions and then had a very good French side who we were unlucky not to beat.
even in 2024 we had Denmark who are decent and Serbia are no mugs either in the group. The Swiss are a very good side in the quarter finals and the Dutch in the semis
I'm not sure who people expect us to play in these things. It's very rare you have to play only elite teams to win something.
Look at the last World Cup, Argentina had Australia, Holland and Croatia, 2 of those are apparently crap when England play them |
You’re one of the posters on here I whose messages I like reading, daveB, but I’ll disagree with you to an extent here.
Our side of the draw was very easy on paper compared to the other side of the draw for the knockout stages of the 2018 World Cup.
Other side of the draw was as follows: France, Argentina, Uruguay, Portugal, Brazil, Mexico, Belgium & Japan. I wouldn’t have been confident playing any of those teams at that time.
We had, Colombia, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Russia, Croatia & Denmark. Spain were not as good as they are now back then, so there wasn’t a team on that side of the draw I was scared of.
In the 2020 Euro’s, we played one of the worst Germany teams I’ve seen in the last 16, a very poor Ukraine in the quarters and Denmark at Wembley in the semis. We avoided Italy, Spain and France who were in the other half. | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 14:28 - Oct 15 with 1606 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| the golden generation England debate on 11:38 - Oct 15 by daveB |
Part of the issue for that team was that there were several other very good teams around as well. The French had a ridiculous side with Zidane, Viera, Henry etc, Brazil had some incredible players, Argentina, Germany all really good as were Portugal. They got pretty far in the 2002,2004 and 2006 tournaments just couldn't make the last steps
Lots of things they could have done different but in 2002 we had players like Danny Mills, Trevor Sinclair Nicky Butt and Emile Heskey in the team against the likes Rivaldo,Ronaldinhio, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos etc
Even in 2006 the one we could have done better in that Portugal team who beat us was a really good one
For me it's about how strong your bench is, we had a great first 11 but when we had to make changes the drop off was really big, thats not something you can say now as we have a very good squad and is part of why we've been a lot better the last few tournaments |
Yes, I agree with that - it's hard to win a major tournament because once you get to the later stages, there are other good teams and you're not just rolling over Panama.
I would add that international football, like club football for big teams, has made things easier for the larger nations by allowing larger squads and more substitutions in recent years. It's far harder for an Algeria to beat a West Germany or a Northern Ireland to beat a Spain now. | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 15:04 - Oct 15 with 1543 views | themodfather |
did we rely on named stars like becks too much?
southgate ripped that apart but he had seen the u21s and few really cam thru , under him they did and still do. players capped now after a dozen prem games , the set up and st georges park has finally seen the development across all ages and seen strength in depth and players fitting in easy enough. that was the big factor for me , which is what i want for qpr constant quality players coming thru .
the new generation have certainly put us back on the map and recent semi finals and finals prove that , hopefully brazil, spain etc respect us now . | | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 15:41 - Oct 15 with 1463 views | daveB |
| the golden generation England debate a on 14:21 - Oct 15 by Snipper |
You’re one of the posters on here I whose messages I like reading, daveB, but I’ll disagree with you to an extent here.
Our side of the draw was very easy on paper compared to the other side of the draw for the knockout stages of the 2018 World Cup.
Other side of the draw was as follows: France, Argentina, Uruguay, Portugal, Brazil, Mexico, Belgium & Japan. I wouldn’t have been confident playing any of those teams at that time.
We had, Colombia, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Russia, Croatia & Denmark. Spain were not as good as they are now back then, so there wasn’t a team on that side of the draw I was scared of.
In the 2020 Euro’s, we played one of the worst Germany teams I’ve seen in the last 16, a very poor Ukraine in the quarters and Denmark at Wembley in the semis. We avoided Italy, Spain and France who were in the other half. |
It was an easier side of the draw on paper but I just don't thinK with the pressure on England expected to always win these games with the lack of experience of winning at that level at the time it was far from easy. That team had likes of Lingaard and Dele Ali in it, to get them to a semi final no matter who they were playing was a massive over achievment.
Of course it was easier than playing Spain, France etc but no knockout game with the pressure that comes with it is easy. England would regularly lose those games pre Southgate
i think we have a better chance of winning a tournament under Tuchel but part of that is due to the work done the last 8 years getting us to a very strong place | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 09:22 - Oct 16 with 1201 views | izlingtonhoop |
| the golden generation England debate on 12:35 - Oct 15 by MrSheen |
The talent pipeline is ridiculous now. Someone like Angel Gomes can get a game before I’d barely heard of him, look completely at home, then disappear down the side of the armchair and not be missed. |
As I don't follow the premier league much below whole club level; ie results and table, I rarely have any knowledge of England debutants these days. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 09:46 - Oct 16 with 1165 views | daveB |
| the golden generation England debate on 12:35 - Oct 15 by MrSheen |
The talent pipeline is ridiculous now. Someone like Angel Gomes can get a game before I’d barely heard of him, look completely at home, then disappear down the side of the armchair and not be missed. |
I genuinley forgot about him, he looked really good last year | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 10:28 - Oct 16 with 1112 views | CamberleyR |
| the golden generation England debate on 13:59 - Oct 15 by daveB |
Southgate would be perfect for them, should have got the job a year ago, he'll steady them and get them back regularly in the champions league. Not sexy enough for them though |
They should have gone all out for Thomas Frank a year ago I reckon but they went down the trendy Portuguese coach route. |  |
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| the golden generation England debate on 10:40 - Oct 16 with 1075 views | BAWHoops |
Euro 2020 we had a really tough group. Croatia, Scotland, Czech Rep. was certainly not straightforward.
Beat Germany in the L16 as well and didn't concede a goal until the semi finals!
Cocked it up v Italy in the final. Had them on the rack and panicked.
Euro 2024 was crap but we still beat a handy Swiss side and the Dutch before narrowly losing to Spain in the final.
Best performance under Southgate was in Qatar where we demolished Iran, Wales and Senegal then lost a tight game to France because our greatest ever striker picked that moment to miss a penalty. |  |
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| the golden generation England debate on 11:07 - Oct 16 with 1006 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Just a reminder, we did a lot of this with Deli Ali (Como) and Jesse Lingard (FC Seol) as key attackers. | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 11:51 - Oct 16 with 931 views | rbee |
Deli Ali's form departed.
Jesse Lingard thought he was better than he was. Found a perfect home at Wet Spam but chased a few extra quid at Forest and failed. | | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 16:49 - Oct 17 with 558 views | Match82 |
| the golden generation England debate a on 15:41 - Oct 15 by daveB |
It was an easier side of the draw on paper but I just don't thinK with the pressure on England expected to always win these games with the lack of experience of winning at that level at the time it was far from easy. That team had likes of Lingaard and Dele Ali in it, to get them to a semi final no matter who they were playing was a massive over achievment.
Of course it was easier than playing Spain, France etc but no knockout game with the pressure that comes with it is easy. England would regularly lose those games pre Southgate
i think we have a better chance of winning a tournament under Tuchel but part of that is due to the work done the last 8 years getting us to a very strong place |
We also actually won those games.
I read an incredible stat yesterday, Italy, who I'd argue are in a similar tier to England in terms of history and expectations, haven't played a world cup knockout game since 2006. They've either been knocked out in group stage or not even made the world cup since. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 19:11 - Oct 17 with 503 views | kensalriser |
| the golden generation England debate a on 16:49 - Oct 17 by Match82 |
We also actually won those games.
I read an incredible stat yesterday, Italy, who I'd argue are in a similar tier to England in terms of history and expectations, haven't played a world cup knockout game since 2006. They've either been knocked out in group stage or not even made the world cup since. |
Even if you restrict it to post-war, Italy have won the World Cup twice, the Euros twice and been the runners up of each a further two times. They're probably two tiers above England. |  |
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| the golden generation England debate a on 10:09 - Oct 18 with 397 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| the golden generation England debate a on 19:11 - Oct 17 by kensalriser |
Even if you restrict it to post-war, Italy have won the World Cup twice, the Euros twice and been the runners up of each a further two times. They're probably two tiers above England. |
Yep.
When I hear people say ‘Italy were there for the taking that day’ I think of this and the fact that they was in the middle of unbeaten run that holds the record today.
As someone else said (Padula’s Shampoo?) England fans are the most entitled in the world. | | | |
| the golden generation England debate on 11:06 - Oct 18 with 375 views | FDC |
| the golden generation England debate on 13:59 - Oct 15 by daveB |
Southgate would be perfect for them, should have got the job a year ago, he'll steady them and get them back regularly in the champions league. Not sexy enough for them though |
Interesting shout. But I agree, I couldn't see them going for it. Man Utd fans remain far too entitled to entertain the idea of Southgate. He doesn't carry himself with the same self-importance as top club managers, and I still associate Utd with disdain for the national team, from the Fergie days, so I don't think they'd give much thought to his achievements with England.
It would be interesting to see if he could achieve the same kind of cultural overhaul at a club like Utd though. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 10:15 - Oct 20 with 186 views | TheChef |
| the golden generation England debate a on 16:49 - Oct 17 by Match82 |
We also actually won those games.
I read an incredible stat yesterday, Italy, who I'd argue are in a similar tier to England in terms of history and expectations, haven't played a world cup knockout game since 2006. They've either been knocked out in group stage or not even made the world cup since. |
Italy have won the WC twice since we won it, plus the Euros, they're a tier above us I'm sorry to tell you. |  |
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| the golden generation England debate on 10:32 - Oct 20 with 144 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| the golden generation England debate on 13:59 - Oct 15 by daveB |
Southgate would be perfect for them, should have got the job a year ago, he'll steady them and get them back regularly in the champions league. Not sexy enough for them though |
Southgate at Manchester United (or any top English club)? 🤣
The supporters would not have it in any shape or form and rightly so as he’d be a disaster.
Hugely telling he’s not got a managerial job at all since leaving England. |  | | |
| the golden generation England debate a on 10:36 - Oct 20 with 127 views | Juzzie |
| the golden generation England debate a on 10:09 - Oct 18 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Yep.
When I hear people say ‘Italy were there for the taking that day’ I think of this and the fact that they was in the middle of unbeaten run that holds the record today.
As someone else said (Padula’s Shampoo?) England fans are the most entitled in the world. |
Italy were indeed better than people give them credit for. Yes, it was an ageing team but they had experienced players like Chiellini who knew how to out-think younger players plus you don't go on something like a 30+ unbeaten run if you're not good.
We did have them on the ropes in the first half and that's where we needed to win the game. No point holding a 1-0 lead for 87 mins, not in a final, as that is being far too complacent to the opposition. We needed that second goal before half time because no way would Mancini allow his team to be like that in the second half. He didn't and they weren't.
I felt going in at half time 1-0 up was not enough. Was England not getting a second goal down to the manager/coaches or down to the players or maybe Italy just did what they had to do in order to not conceded further before half-time?
However..... as the OP is about the Golden generation (sic), I'd take where Southgate got us all day long compared to the drudge I had to deal with through the 80-s, 90's (Italia 90 Euro 96 aside) and early 00's.
[Post edited 20 Oct 10:47]
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