| Immigration Costs an example 12:03 - May 2 with 7836 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
Yesterday about 900 people crossed the channel, the Government is now paying an average of £41,000 a year to house an illegal migrant.
In housing costs alone that will cost us nearly £37 Million a year just for one days crossings, at 900 a day the bill is £13.5 Billion.
Those who say illegal migration is not a problem are at best misled.
[Post edited 2 May 12:04]
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| Immigration Costs an example on 19:54 - Jun 1 with 1170 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Another 1200 people mostly young men laughing and cheering as they disembarked at Dover yesterday looking forward to having millions of British people pay for everything they can possibly need for the next few decades. |  |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 20:09 - Jun 1 with 1155 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:15 - Jun 1 by Whiterockin |
It's not only the wealthy who legally try to minimise their tax liabilities. Anyone getting older who own property or/and have assets should take advice on how to avoid paying more tax than they need too. I have and for my families sake I'm really glad I have. |
As I understand it, tax avoidance covers a very wide range of things, basically most forms of planning to minimise tax liability. Do we condemn people who put their money into ISAs to avoid tax liability on savings that are anyway struggling to keep up with inflation?
To me, the wider problem is that the UK is no longer a rich enough country to be able to afford the level and volume of welfare benefits we are providing. This is being exacerbated by mass immigration of persons who on average do not make a net fiscal contribution. Welfare states operate on the basis that the tax-paying population is effectively funding an insurance risk pool to support persons who require help. If the risk pool expands in an uncontrolled way, then planning and finance become extremely difficult. As Milton Friedman said, you can have a welfare state or you can have open borders and free movement of labour, but not both. |  | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 20:50 - Jun 1 with 1111 views | trampie |
| Immigration Costs an example on 20:09 - Jun 1 by AnotherJohn |
As I understand it, tax avoidance covers a very wide range of things, basically most forms of planning to minimise tax liability. Do we condemn people who put their money into ISAs to avoid tax liability on savings that are anyway struggling to keep up with inflation?
To me, the wider problem is that the UK is no longer a rich enough country to be able to afford the level and volume of welfare benefits we are providing. This is being exacerbated by mass immigration of persons who on average do not make a net fiscal contribution. Welfare states operate on the basis that the tax-paying population is effectively funding an insurance risk pool to support persons who require help. If the risk pool expands in an uncontrolled way, then planning and finance become extremely difficult. As Milton Friedman said, you can have a welfare state or you can have open borders and free movement of labour, but not both. |
Monetarism failed. |  |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 21:38 - Jun 1 with 1074 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 20:09 - Jun 1 by AnotherJohn |
As I understand it, tax avoidance covers a very wide range of things, basically most forms of planning to minimise tax liability. Do we condemn people who put their money into ISAs to avoid tax liability on savings that are anyway struggling to keep up with inflation?
To me, the wider problem is that the UK is no longer a rich enough country to be able to afford the level and volume of welfare benefits we are providing. This is being exacerbated by mass immigration of persons who on average do not make a net fiscal contribution. Welfare states operate on the basis that the tax-paying population is effectively funding an insurance risk pool to support persons who require help. If the risk pool expands in an uncontrolled way, then planning and finance become extremely difficult. As Milton Friedman said, you can have a welfare state or you can have open borders and free movement of labour, but not both. |
That's where these stats about the amount generated by tax avoidance skew the situation, I pay an AVC on my pension which "avoids" tax and national insurance. I have an ISA. That's avoiding tax. It's completely different to tax evasion.
I don't think immigration per se is exacerbating the welfare bill because the vast majority are working. A lot may well not be earning enough to make a net contribution but that's not their fault and they're doing jobs we won't do. It's not immigration that's the issue, it's laziness amongst British people and more importantly low pay. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 01:40 - Jun 2 with 1024 views | Robbie |
Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwaartemg both failed in their ability to run a Govrernment , file alongside Pritti Patel who promised to get the small boats issue under control , useless .
Starmer in his big brave manifesto promise is like a duck out of water floundering again .
UK will spend Millions again on asking Albania and France to stop the small boats and gladly accept the cash incoming .
Get to the root cause of stopping the Channel crossings , then maybe they will get my vote at the next General Election . | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 07:01 - Jun 2 with 990 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration Costs an example on 21:38 - Jun 1 by Scotia |
That's where these stats about the amount generated by tax avoidance skew the situation, I pay an AVC on my pension which "avoids" tax and national insurance. I have an ISA. That's avoiding tax. It's completely different to tax evasion.
I don't think immigration per se is exacerbating the welfare bill because the vast majority are working. A lot may well not be earning enough to make a net contribution but that's not their fault and they're doing jobs we won't do. It's not immigration that's the issue, it's laziness amongst British people and more importantly low pay. |
If, as you concede, a majority of migrants do not make a net fiscal contribution then they are making the economic situation worse - it is as simple as that.
How many are in work does not matter without a positive fiscal contribution, but it is a concern that a high number are not in work. ONS data shows that in Q2 of 2024 1.689m non-UK nationals were either economically inactive or unemployed ("workless").
The other point your post does not address is the rapidly changing size of the risk pool which makes planning so difficult. If we cannot assume that tax revenue generated (net fiscal contribution) increases at a rate sufficient to cover the extra spending needed for the extra population, then the whole system is threatened.
Incidentally, this argument has nothing to do with monetarism. Friedman was in favour of labour mobility and against welfare states. [Post edited 2 Jun 7:09]
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| Immigration Costs an example on 07:30 - Jun 2 with 966 views | Dr_Winston |
| Immigration Costs an example on 01:40 - Jun 2 by Robbie |
Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwaartemg both failed in their ability to run a Govrernment , file alongside Pritti Patel who promised to get the small boats issue under control , useless .
Starmer in his big brave manifesto promise is like a duck out of water floundering again .
UK will spend Millions again on asking Albania and France to stop the small boats and gladly accept the cash incoming .
Get to the root cause of stopping the Channel crossings , then maybe they will get my vote at the next General Election . |
Upon arrival they are fed, housed, and given a stipend. Many also disappear into the black economy as it's fairly easy to do so in the UK compared to other states.
Nip those four things in the bud and far fewer would risk the crossing. The easiest way to deal with three of them is to move all arrivals to an offshore camp and detain them there whilst their application is being thoroughly processed. We've got hundreds of uninhabited islands across the British Archipelago that could be used. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 08:28 - Jun 2 with 916 views | howenjack |
| Immigration Costs an example on 21:38 - Jun 1 by Scotia |
That's where these stats about the amount generated by tax avoidance skew the situation, I pay an AVC on my pension which "avoids" tax and national insurance. I have an ISA. That's avoiding tax. It's completely different to tax evasion.
I don't think immigration per se is exacerbating the welfare bill because the vast majority are working. A lot may well not be earning enough to make a net contribution but that's not their fault and they're doing jobs we won't do. It's not immigration that's the issue, it's laziness amongst British people and more importantly low pay. |
Have you read the Lancaster report that would explain a lot. You have not been to Birmingham have you ? | | | |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 08:51 - Jun 2 with 883 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 08:28 - Jun 2 by howenjack |
Have you read the Lancaster report that would explain a lot. You have not been to Birmingham have you ? |
Don't think I've read that. Spent a year in Uni in Brum, I know it well. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 09:07 - Jun 2 with 856 views | controversial_jack |
| Immigration Costs an example on 19:54 - Jun 1 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Another 1200 people mostly young men laughing and cheering as they disembarked at Dover yesterday looking forward to having millions of British people pay for everything they can possibly need for the next few decades. |
That's not strictly true. They get basic subsistence and they want to work. Benefits in this country are not particularly generous | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 09:32 - Jun 2 with 837 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 07:01 - Jun 2 by AnotherJohn |
If, as you concede, a majority of migrants do not make a net fiscal contribution then they are making the economic situation worse - it is as simple as that.
How many are in work does not matter without a positive fiscal contribution, but it is a concern that a high number are not in work. ONS data shows that in Q2 of 2024 1.689m non-UK nationals were either economically inactive or unemployed ("workless").
The other point your post does not address is the rapidly changing size of the risk pool which makes planning so difficult. If we cannot assume that tax revenue generated (net fiscal contribution) increases at a rate sufficient to cover the extra spending needed for the extra population, then the whole system is threatened.
Incidentally, this argument has nothing to do with monetarism. Friedman was in favour of labour mobility and against welfare states. [Post edited 2 Jun 7:09]
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In that case anybody in those jobs does not make a fiscal contribution and is a financial burden. That's not down to immigration it's down to poor pay, public services and the cost of living.
The bottom line is the vast majority are working, in jobs we need to be done that we can't get enough people to do. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 12:14 - Jun 2 with 779 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Immigration Costs an example on 09:07 - Jun 2 by controversial_jack |
That's not strictly true. They get basic subsistence and they want to work. Benefits in this country are not particularly generous |
Your car won’t wash itself I suppose | |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 12:50 - Jun 2 with 752 views | raynor94 |
| Immigration Costs an example on 12:14 - Jun 2 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Your car won’t wash itself I suppose |
And a lot are following Norman Tebbits advice and getting on their bikes |  |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 14:16 - Jun 2 with 708 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/02/france-blames-brexit-for-channel-mig
The French minister is complaining their cannot stop illegal migrants if UK rolls out a red carpet for them. This person is on Macron's government not Reform.
She said this.
"She also repeated long-held French claims that Britain represented an “El Dorado” to migrants because of its “attractive” benefits and asylum system. El Dorado is a mythical city of gold, supposedly located in South America" . [Post edited 2 Jun 14:30]
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| Immigration Costs an example on 15:14 - Jun 2 with 670 views | howenjack |
| Immigration Costs an example on 08:51 - Jun 2 by Scotia |
Don't think I've read that. Spent a year in Uni in Brum, I know it well. |
Re.Lancaster . I saw an article online in a national newspaper re. the state of the nation and one person had replied to a comment with 4 words -" Read the Lancaster report " . So my curiosity piqued looked it up and under the " New England Review " an American publication there it was an article written by a high ranking business man. He had been invited to a house party in Hertfordshire and given the 5 star treatment by his host including 1929 Armagnac (which I ve never heard of ) in generous quantities. Some of the group after a sumptuous buffet retired to the drawing room - it was a mansion after all.
The conversation soon focused on the then recent Paris terrorist attacks - the article i think was written in 2017 . Anyway a gentleman - may well have been the host I can't remember who , was stood by a large marble fireplace holding court , thoughtfully looking into his crystal glassed 1929 Armagnac .
He proceeded to tell the guests before him that An Islamic takeover of the UK had all been ratified and agreed to in a report by a previous P.M ( who shall remain nameless) and muslim high ranking authorities . This involved putting muslims in power positions such as London mayor councillors , M.P's etc.
Large scale immigration would ensure that the tipping point in numbers would be achieved and accelerate this. Churches would slowly be converted to mosques and new mosques built .
Devolution was mentioned as playing a part in this as well though I cannot remember the details of how exactly. "Anti Muslim behaviour" would be strictly clamped down on and freedom of speech would be curtailed .
The path being followed would be continued by subsequent govts.to ensure a smooth transition of power . 2050 would pretty much see completion . Guests voiced their opinions and were told that it was to safeguard the country and avoid outright civil war - the indigenous not being strong or determined enough to stand up for their heritage . The report stated that the lesser of two evils was being officially sanctioned . Some sort of semblance of England " as we know it would be preserved ".
Eventually the king would have to convert and the death penalty reintroduced . In exchange for a peaceful transition the Muslim hierarchy would actually report on suspected terrorists to the authorities . The report was called the Lancaster report after the Duke of Lancaster John of Gaunt - there must be some sort of historical / relevant connection with the report.
The author some time later tried to contact the host/guest speaker . He had been given a phone number and was then given a mobile number which he rang . He got through to the speaker's mother who told him he had left his job and was now working in indonesia.
Make of this what you will ... Science fiction or fact but don't shoot the messenger.
Incidentally I looked up the Lancaster report some time later and it had been pulled , even off wikipedia - it was no longer there and no reference to it was available. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:18 - Jun 2 with 667 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Immigration Costs an example on 21:38 - Jun 1 by Scotia |
That's where these stats about the amount generated by tax avoidance skew the situation, I pay an AVC on my pension which "avoids" tax and national insurance. I have an ISA. That's avoiding tax. It's completely different to tax evasion.
I don't think immigration per se is exacerbating the welfare bill because the vast majority are working. A lot may well not be earning enough to make a net contribution but that's not their fault and they're doing jobs we won't do. It's not immigration that's the issue, it's laziness amongst British people and more importantly low pay. |
Then maybe it is time to have sensible conversations about those things that people have said shouldn't happen.
Things like national Identity cards, stopping the state pension but putting in a viable alternative and cutting welfare payments because the minimum wage is actually hugh enough for people to live without benefits.
There has to be a way but it may mean not just radical thinking but radical action. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:26 - Jun 2 with 647 views | howenjack |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:18 - Jun 2 by SullutaCreturned |
Then maybe it is time to have sensible conversations about those things that people have said shouldn't happen.
Things like national Identity cards, stopping the state pension but putting in a viable alternative and cutting welfare payments because the minimum wage is actually hugh enough for people to live without benefits.
There has to be a way but it may mean not just radical thinking but radical action. |
See the above. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:32 - Jun 2 with 626 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Immigration Costs an example on 14:16 - Jun 2 by ReslovenSwan1 |
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/02/france-blames-brexit-for-channel-mig
The French minister is complaining their cannot stop illegal migrants if UK rolls out a red carpet for them. This person is on Macron's government not Reform.
She said this.
"She also repeated long-held French claims that Britain represented an “El Dorado” to migrants because of its “attractive” benefits and asylum system. El Dorado is a mythical city of gold, supposedly located in South America" . [Post edited 2 Jun 14:30]
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The Mayor of Calais said a similar thing in the past about everything being given to migrants on a plate in the UK compared to France. | |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 16:38 - Jun 2 with 572 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:14 - Jun 2 by howenjack |
Re.Lancaster . I saw an article online in a national newspaper re. the state of the nation and one person had replied to a comment with 4 words -" Read the Lancaster report " . So my curiosity piqued looked it up and under the " New England Review " an American publication there it was an article written by a high ranking business man. He had been invited to a house party in Hertfordshire and given the 5 star treatment by his host including 1929 Armagnac (which I ve never heard of ) in generous quantities. Some of the group after a sumptuous buffet retired to the drawing room - it was a mansion after all.
The conversation soon focused on the then recent Paris terrorist attacks - the article i think was written in 2017 . Anyway a gentleman - may well have been the host I can't remember who , was stood by a large marble fireplace holding court , thoughtfully looking into his crystal glassed 1929 Armagnac .
He proceeded to tell the guests before him that An Islamic takeover of the UK had all been ratified and agreed to in a report by a previous P.M ( who shall remain nameless) and muslim high ranking authorities . This involved putting muslims in power positions such as London mayor councillors , M.P's etc.
Large scale immigration would ensure that the tipping point in numbers would be achieved and accelerate this. Churches would slowly be converted to mosques and new mosques built .
Devolution was mentioned as playing a part in this as well though I cannot remember the details of how exactly. "Anti Muslim behaviour" would be strictly clamped down on and freedom of speech would be curtailed .
The path being followed would be continued by subsequent govts.to ensure a smooth transition of power . 2050 would pretty much see completion . Guests voiced their opinions and were told that it was to safeguard the country and avoid outright civil war - the indigenous not being strong or determined enough to stand up for their heritage . The report stated that the lesser of two evils was being officially sanctioned . Some sort of semblance of England " as we know it would be preserved ".
Eventually the king would have to convert and the death penalty reintroduced . In exchange for a peaceful transition the Muslim hierarchy would actually report on suspected terrorists to the authorities . The report was called the Lancaster report after the Duke of Lancaster John of Gaunt - there must be some sort of historical / relevant connection with the report.
The author some time later tried to contact the host/guest speaker . He had been given a phone number and was then given a mobile number which he rang . He got through to the speaker's mother who told him he had left his job and was now working in indonesia.
Make of this what you will ... Science fiction or fact but don't shoot the messenger.
Incidentally I looked up the Lancaster report some time later and it had been pulled , even off wikipedia - it was no longer there and no reference to it was available. |
That sounds a lot like the Eurabia conspiracy theory. It's obviously not happening in reality. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 17:52 - Jun 2 with 526 views | trampie |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:14 - Jun 2 by howenjack |
Re.Lancaster . I saw an article online in a national newspaper re. the state of the nation and one person had replied to a comment with 4 words -" Read the Lancaster report " . So my curiosity piqued looked it up and under the " New England Review " an American publication there it was an article written by a high ranking business man. He had been invited to a house party in Hertfordshire and given the 5 star treatment by his host including 1929 Armagnac (which I ve never heard of ) in generous quantities. Some of the group after a sumptuous buffet retired to the drawing room - it was a mansion after all.
The conversation soon focused on the then recent Paris terrorist attacks - the article i think was written in 2017 . Anyway a gentleman - may well have been the host I can't remember who , was stood by a large marble fireplace holding court , thoughtfully looking into his crystal glassed 1929 Armagnac .
He proceeded to tell the guests before him that An Islamic takeover of the UK had all been ratified and agreed to in a report by a previous P.M ( who shall remain nameless) and muslim high ranking authorities . This involved putting muslims in power positions such as London mayor councillors , M.P's etc.
Large scale immigration would ensure that the tipping point in numbers would be achieved and accelerate this. Churches would slowly be converted to mosques and new mosques built .
Devolution was mentioned as playing a part in this as well though I cannot remember the details of how exactly. "Anti Muslim behaviour" would be strictly clamped down on and freedom of speech would be curtailed .
The path being followed would be continued by subsequent govts.to ensure a smooth transition of power . 2050 would pretty much see completion . Guests voiced their opinions and were told that it was to safeguard the country and avoid outright civil war - the indigenous not being strong or determined enough to stand up for their heritage . The report stated that the lesser of two evils was being officially sanctioned . Some sort of semblance of England " as we know it would be preserved ".
Eventually the king would have to convert and the death penalty reintroduced . In exchange for a peaceful transition the Muslim hierarchy would actually report on suspected terrorists to the authorities . The report was called the Lancaster report after the Duke of Lancaster John of Gaunt - there must be some sort of historical / relevant connection with the report.
The author some time later tried to contact the host/guest speaker . He had been given a phone number and was then given a mobile number which he rang . He got through to the speaker's mother who told him he had left his job and was now working in indonesia.
Make of this what you will ... Science fiction or fact but don't shoot the messenger.
Incidentally I looked up the Lancaster report some time later and it had been pulled , even off wikipedia - it was no longer there and no reference to it was available. |
Sounds like the well known conspiracy theory written by an Egyptian jew who married an English bloke, I was told Cardiffs number one fans family were Egyptian Jews as well hence why the fan has apparently never been seen doing the ayatollah.
Funny the things you hear over the years isn't it. | |
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| Immigration Costs an example on 21:53 - Jun 2 with 454 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 15:18 - Jun 2 by SullutaCreturned |
Then maybe it is time to have sensible conversations about those things that people have said shouldn't happen.
Things like national Identity cards, stopping the state pension but putting in a viable alternative and cutting welfare payments because the minimum wage is actually hugh enough for people to live without benefits.
There has to be a way but it may mean not just radical thinking but radical action. |
Those conversations are long overdue. The problem is any politician who puts them into practice won't be a politician much longer.
We want services and benefits but don't want to pay for them. So we blame immigrants, because it's easier and the Mail / express /telegraph / gbnews tell us too.
You'd have to be stupid to ignore the problem that immigration presents, but the solution is very difficult. Far more difficult than stopping the boats | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 22:55 - Jun 2 with 406 views | Luther27 |
| Immigration Costs an example on 21:53 - Jun 2 by Scotia |
Those conversations are long overdue. The problem is any politician who puts them into practice won't be a politician much longer.
We want services and benefits but don't want to pay for them. So we blame immigrants, because it's easier and the Mail / express /telegraph / gbnews tell us too.
You'd have to be stupid to ignore the problem that immigration presents, but the solution is very difficult. Far more difficult than stopping the boats |
Don’t want to pay for services and benefits? Really? My monthly income begs to differ there chum…and I don’t receive benefits or claim them plus I appear to receive less service than ever.
Perhaps I’m one of life’s mugs in believing I have to pay my dues in life….which I do. But I’m fast approaching the point where I’m getting very very fed up with being treated as a cash cow for every bleeding heart, politicians and media throw at me. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 07:33 - Jun 3 with 324 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration Costs an example on 09:32 - Jun 2 by Scotia |
In that case anybody in those jobs does not make a fiscal contribution and is a financial burden. That's not down to immigration it's down to poor pay, public services and the cost of living.
The bottom line is the vast majority are working, in jobs we need to be done that we can't get enough people to do. |
One needs to come back to the concept of the insurance risk pool, This rests on the idea that those who have the means (and pay more into the system than they take out in benefits and services) subsidise those who do not, in order to provide welfare services for all. However, if immigration adds to the proportion who are not in a position to provide a subsidy (by allowing about 10 million net population growth since 2000, even more in gross terms) then the system starts to creak, Was economics covered in your course in Brum? | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 07:58 - Jun 3 with 300 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 07:33 - Jun 3 by AnotherJohn |
One needs to come back to the concept of the insurance risk pool, This rests on the idea that those who have the means (and pay more into the system than they take out in benefits and services) subsidise those who do not, in order to provide welfare services for all. However, if immigration adds to the proportion who are not in a position to provide a subsidy (by allowing about 10 million net population growth since 2000, even more in gross terms) then the system starts to creak, Was economics covered in your course in Brum? |
We've only allowed the net growth because we've needed them, some more so than others, but until we solve the huge issue of people unwilling to work we'll keep needing them. | | | |
| Immigration Costs an example on 07:59 - Jun 3 with 298 views | Scotia |
| Immigration Costs an example on 22:55 - Jun 2 by Luther27 |
Don’t want to pay for services and benefits? Really? My monthly income begs to differ there chum…and I don’t receive benefits or claim them plus I appear to receive less service than ever.
Perhaps I’m one of life’s mugs in believing I have to pay my dues in life….which I do. But I’m fast approaching the point where I’m getting very very fed up with being treated as a cash cow for every bleeding heart, politicians and media throw at me. |
Are you happy with the level of public services we get?
Do you support the means testing of WFA etc? | | | |
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