| Should he stay or should he go? 13:07 - May 16 with 12679 views | ProudDale |
Surely this is the question on every fans' mind after last night, and hopefully on the Ogdens.
In the credit column, BJ is a decent guy and has steered the Dale ship through very choppy waters. The players seem to like him, and you would probably argue that a semi final place in the FA Trophy, and a quarter final exit in the Playoffs is above par based on expectations at the start of the season. He knows the squad, and should know its strengths better than anyone, and SHOULD know where it needs improving. Are we just a few pieces away from a winning jigsaw?
The counter arguments are plentiful - if one definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results, we all have collectively experienced deja vous too many times to count. Game management has been woeful at the crunch points - Spennymore, and the 70 minute mark yesterday being the most damning. The style of football is boring to watch, and his tactical inflexibility seems to be known to every opposition manager, particularly the ones with lesser resources whose cunning plan of the "low block" seem to have us totally stumped. Does anyone remember having a winger like Mendez-Laing galloping down the wing, taking men on, and delivering juicy crosses? Combative strikers in the mould of Grant Holt and CoG actually jumping for headers and taking shots whenever the opportunity arises? Keepers who can command their box, and save shots rather than aiming to be a Pirlo. Those are the things which will deliver bums on seats, and gives us a chance of Project 5000.
Should we go again with a few tweaks in the right places, or do we roll the dice and get an experienced, progressive manager for the National League who understands when to mix it, when to go for it, and when to circle the wagons? If the latter, surely now's the time to do it with a full Summer ahead of us rather than loading the bullet in November after the squad is full of another man's players and behind the chasing pack.
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:07 - May 17 with 3043 views | Clivert |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 15:45 - May 17 by 442Dale |
And I acknowledged that people were fully behind Hill after Wembley. The other points were made to illustrate, which Nerazzurri also did with examples about that very same season, that we all can ignore those bits we didn’t like. It was to respond to the mention of the “Hill era” which I presumed meant more than that one season.
But yes, there’s no doubt that fans felt a lot more positive about the manager after Wembley than they do now. My own post further up shows how much concern I have over McNulty. And, to address your second post within this one, those concerns and obvious solutions are not me seeming “to imagine he’s magically going to become the manager you want him to be - rather than accept him for the manager that he is”, because, as you noted, I actually said: “ Can McNulty achieve all that? I have serious doubts based on the evidence.” So no, I don’t seem to think that.
The earning the right to try? No problem with anyone disagreeing with that, it’s personal opinion. Mine is based on the fact that thinking his employers will look at the team’s performance across the season and that says 4th place and a semi final. That’s why the word “probably” was included. Now, I’d agree there is a lot of context within that which should be considered, but I acknowledge that it’s a results business and McNulty can point to his record with context ignored.
Actually, going back to the Stockport game for minute, I do recall much consternation about the decision to play Ramsden in midfield that day when we had an experienced midfielder on the bench… [Post edited 17 May 15:53]
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Doolan was the experienced midfielder on the bench?? He came on against Darlo after Perkins was sent off and was an absolute liability and should have been sent off himself?
Perkins being suspended for the final cost us that final.
Remember Chris Basham? Midfielder who we had on loan from Bolton until the end of that league season but Bolton wouldn't extend the loan for the playoffs for some reason that I can't remember, not having Basham for the playoffs cost us too. |  | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:22 - May 17 with 2987 views | EllDale |
I always thought Doolan wasn’t picked for Wembley as Hill thought he wasn’t fit enough to play 90 minutes on that big pitch.
It meant that we had a makeshift midfielder in Ramsden and a right back in D’Laryea who hadn’t played a lot of football so we were weak in two positions. | | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:30 - May 17 with 2948 views | dingdangblue |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:22 - May 17 by EllDale |
I always thought Doolan wasn’t picked for Wembley as Hill thought he wasn’t fit enough to play 90 minutes on that big pitch.
It meant that we had a makeshift midfielder in Ramsden and a right back in D’Laryea who hadn’t played a lot of football so we were weak in two positions. |
I still to this day can't fathom how Perkins red card wasn't rescinded. He made no contact with Ravenhill and then Steve Foster grabbed him by the throat right infront of the ref. To miss a final like that must have been heartbreaking for him. |  |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:55 - May 17 with 2881 views | 442Dale |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:07 - May 17 by Clivert |
Doolan was the experienced midfielder on the bench?? He came on against Darlo after Perkins was sent off and was an absolute liability and should have been sent off himself?
Perkins being suspended for the final cost us that final.
Remember Chris Basham? Midfielder who we had on loan from Bolton until the end of that league season but Bolton wouldn't extend the loan for the playoffs for some reason that I can't remember, not having Basham for the playoffs cost us too. |
Yep, do remember Doolan was terrible when he came in for that last ten minutes v Darlo but he had played the full 90 v Shrewsbury in the last league game of the season. Hill should have addressed the Ramsden/D’Laryea problem at half time though. Then there was waiting until we fell behind before bringing on Howe for Le Fondre, with the choice to play him and Dagnall together from the start never making much sense.
From memory, the Basham problem was that he’d exhausted his three month/90 day loan. That wasn’t able to be extended. The Perkins sending off was definitely the biggest factor though. |  |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:23 - May 18 with 2633 views | Daley_Lama |
Stay; Numerous reasons, stability, strong if frustrating season, good squad atmosphere, club at heart.Genuinely good chap.
Go; Inability to adapt, specifically game management. Opposition high press, opposition low block, opposition long throw and most of all how to play when winning.
We had a good core squad this year, wide use of the loan system. To go the next step needs another 30 points or so and without addressing the on the pitch shortcomings this year, that will not happen. |  |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:50 - May 18 with 2592 views | frenzied |
i think barring an absolute disaster at beginning of next season Jim will be in post this time next year even if we end up mid table.
It feels as if we have the mentality of a small cosy club who knows its place and the push to progress up the leagues is secondary to just plodding on.
The Ogdens have done a great job but at what cost to the true sporting ambition on the field? | | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:51 - May 18 with 2592 views | TalkingSutty |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 16:21 - May 17 by YouTubeDale |
On the face of it we have a decision making board who are professional in their approach. I would like them to show further proof of their quality and call a meeting of directors which should conclude that McNulty isn't the manager to take us forward and therefore relieve him of his duties. The Board made a mistake giving him a 3 year contract, but the Board can make amends by sacking him, thereby giving the club a quantum leap in progressing towards promotion in the near future and helping achieve the Project 5000 target at the same time. |
The board won't sack him. They gave him a budget that would give us a chance of competing for a play off place, he kept his end of the bargain and delivered in respect of that. He never properly believed we should be promoted this season, in his own mind he had deemed on the eve of the play off game that was the case. We know that because he told everybody on Radio Manchester that the club/ team wasn't ready. I'm assuming he told those in the boardroom first, they pay his wages? A terrible message to send out at a terrible time. Not sure why we even played the fixture the following day, we should have just given Southend a free pass. A Southend team that was subjected to a transfer embago earlier this season and close to extinction, they were more ready than us apparently. McNulty isn't doing the club a favour, he's a club employee and it's not down to him to announce when he thinks it's the right time for the club to progress up the pyramid, we dont get to pick and choose. Those small mental mindsets are what give your opponents the extra edge to win games, i think we saw that play out against Southend. Southends manager will be totally focused on winning promotion this season, McNulty obviously wasn't and had doubts. Fine margins but very telling ones which permeate down to the players and to the fans. No winners mentality there, another ready made excuses for failure.
He's received a lot of criticism since the defeats against Spennymoor and Southend, all of it is his own making and also those responsible for communications coming out of the club, they need to grow a pair . Only those involved in the process of interviewing Mc Nulty post match will know if there are restrictions that have been put in place but it's an embarrassment listening to the drivel that he spouts..and it is drivel. He has a very high opinion of himself. There is absolutely no proper questioning in respect of tactics, substitutions, individual performances, in match decisions etc. Either the person conducting the interview is inept at his job, lacking in minerals, or he's been told by McNulty to go easy on him. If its the latter then it reflects badly on the manager and exposes a very soft underbelly..a reflection of his team. It also only serves to fuel social media and this forum because fans are left to second guess performances and the decisions made during the game. Fannying the fans in interviews shows a lack of respect, we're from Rochdale and we can recognise it straight away, it doesn't wash and it does him or the media side of the club no favours. I'd like to think he has a bit more about him than to try to manipulate the media team at the club in respect of questioning him, i can't believe he would be so insecure to do that. I couldn't believe how yet again we surrendered from a winning position against Southend so nothing would surprise me with big Jim at the wheel.
We need a new manager, a big character who believes and doesn't use clout and budgets as a excuse to fail. Somebody with a air of authority who can instill a winning mentality into the club and his players. Do we have a nice environment at the club, or a winning environment? It's a important question if we are to get back into the EFL. [Post edited 18 May 9:06]
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 10:12 - May 18 with 2397 views | D_Alien |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:51 - May 18 by TalkingSutty |
The board won't sack him. They gave him a budget that would give us a chance of competing for a play off place, he kept his end of the bargain and delivered in respect of that. He never properly believed we should be promoted this season, in his own mind he had deemed on the eve of the play off game that was the case. We know that because he told everybody on Radio Manchester that the club/ team wasn't ready. I'm assuming he told those in the boardroom first, they pay his wages? A terrible message to send out at a terrible time. Not sure why we even played the fixture the following day, we should have just given Southend a free pass. A Southend team that was subjected to a transfer embago earlier this season and close to extinction, they were more ready than us apparently. McNulty isn't doing the club a favour, he's a club employee and it's not down to him to announce when he thinks it's the right time for the club to progress up the pyramid, we dont get to pick and choose. Those small mental mindsets are what give your opponents the extra edge to win games, i think we saw that play out against Southend. Southends manager will be totally focused on winning promotion this season, McNulty obviously wasn't and had doubts. Fine margins but very telling ones which permeate down to the players and to the fans. No winners mentality there, another ready made excuses for failure.
He's received a lot of criticism since the defeats against Spennymoor and Southend, all of it is his own making and also those responsible for communications coming out of the club, they need to grow a pair . Only those involved in the process of interviewing Mc Nulty post match will know if there are restrictions that have been put in place but it's an embarrassment listening to the drivel that he spouts..and it is drivel. He has a very high opinion of himself. There is absolutely no proper questioning in respect of tactics, substitutions, individual performances, in match decisions etc. Either the person conducting the interview is inept at his job, lacking in minerals, or he's been told by McNulty to go easy on him. If its the latter then it reflects badly on the manager and exposes a very soft underbelly..a reflection of his team. It also only serves to fuel social media and this forum because fans are left to second guess performances and the decisions made during the game. Fannying the fans in interviews shows a lack of respect, we're from Rochdale and we can recognise it straight away, it doesn't wash and it does him or the media side of the club no favours. I'd like to think he has a bit more about him than to try to manipulate the media team at the club in respect of questioning him, i can't believe he would be so insecure to do that. I couldn't believe how yet again we surrendered from a winning position against Southend so nothing would surprise me with big Jim at the wheel.
We need a new manager, a big character who believes and doesn't use clout and budgets as a excuse to fail. Somebody with a air of authority who can instill a winning mentality into the club and his players. Do we have a nice environment at the club, or a winning environment? It's a important question if we are to get back into the EFL. [Post edited 18 May 9:06]
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If we go back two years ago to his talks and tactics at the fag end of the 22/23 season, very little has changed. He's shown we can win enough league points for a crack at promotion but with a budget that provides for that at the minimum, so he damn well should
Nothing substantial has changed, and despite my willing him on to prove me and plenty of others wrong, all he's actually acheived is confirming our initial suspicions as to his suitability to take Dale back to the EFL
He won't be sacked but the bigger question is when will the board finally lose patience with him. It's not a scenario that meets the requirements of the work being put in, at a highly professional and positive level by our newish owners. They're on a learning curve too in terms of football matters - i'd back them to "get there" before too much longer |  |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 12:02 - May 18 with 2224 views | bluevein64 |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:51 - May 18 by TalkingSutty |
The board won't sack him. They gave him a budget that would give us a chance of competing for a play off place, he kept his end of the bargain and delivered in respect of that. He never properly believed we should be promoted this season, in his own mind he had deemed on the eve of the play off game that was the case. We know that because he told everybody on Radio Manchester that the club/ team wasn't ready. I'm assuming he told those in the boardroom first, they pay his wages? A terrible message to send out at a terrible time. Not sure why we even played the fixture the following day, we should have just given Southend a free pass. A Southend team that was subjected to a transfer embago earlier this season and close to extinction, they were more ready than us apparently. McNulty isn't doing the club a favour, he's a club employee and it's not down to him to announce when he thinks it's the right time for the club to progress up the pyramid, we dont get to pick and choose. Those small mental mindsets are what give your opponents the extra edge to win games, i think we saw that play out against Southend. Southends manager will be totally focused on winning promotion this season, McNulty obviously wasn't and had doubts. Fine margins but very telling ones which permeate down to the players and to the fans. No winners mentality there, another ready made excuses for failure.
He's received a lot of criticism since the defeats against Spennymoor and Southend, all of it is his own making and also those responsible for communications coming out of the club, they need to grow a pair . Only those involved in the process of interviewing Mc Nulty post match will know if there are restrictions that have been put in place but it's an embarrassment listening to the drivel that he spouts..and it is drivel. He has a very high opinion of himself. There is absolutely no proper questioning in respect of tactics, substitutions, individual performances, in match decisions etc. Either the person conducting the interview is inept at his job, lacking in minerals, or he's been told by McNulty to go easy on him. If its the latter then it reflects badly on the manager and exposes a very soft underbelly..a reflection of his team. It also only serves to fuel social media and this forum because fans are left to second guess performances and the decisions made during the game. Fannying the fans in interviews shows a lack of respect, we're from Rochdale and we can recognise it straight away, it doesn't wash and it does him or the media side of the club no favours. I'd like to think he has a bit more about him than to try to manipulate the media team at the club in respect of questioning him, i can't believe he would be so insecure to do that. I couldn't believe how yet again we surrendered from a winning position against Southend so nothing would surprise me with big Jim at the wheel.
We need a new manager, a big character who believes and doesn't use clout and budgets as a excuse to fail. Somebody with a air of authority who can instill a winning mentality into the club and his players. Do we have a nice environment at the club, or a winning environment? It's a important question if we are to get back into the EFL. [Post edited 18 May 9:06]
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Excellent post Sutty, as have the vast majority on this thread, regarding not so big Jim "should he stay or should he go" I believe that most Dale fans are singing from the same hymn sheet that it's time for a change, as many have stated that sadly won't be coming to fruition for at least another season !
I'd like to add if I may, my take is that Jim has similar attitude (Dale having reached the play off remit but not being good enough for promotion) to the sales person thats instructed by the sales manager to sell 100 units of whatever from January through to end of December, the target is met by November an order for a further 20 units comes in early December, the sales person has fulfilled the objective and refuses sell the additional 20 units - I've done what was asked and I'm happy with that !
Jim will never sign players with "big characters" you know the types you'd want in the trenches with you, as these types of players usually come with their own idea's, views and opinions and aren't afraid to share them, this type of personality may prove to be too challenging for him to manage !
Jim's post match interviews have become totally embarrassing, staged managed verbal diarrhoea, I'm suggesting that the Club dispense with the current Club employee interviewer and access a credible interviewer or scrap the whole thing altogether ! |  | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 12:05 - May 18 with 2220 views | tony_roch975 |
I've no idea what our playing budget was this season or how that ranks in the league or who McNulty tried to sign or who was or wasn't available but he's delivered 4th place, a historically good goal tally and home record, and a cup semi final.... so he starts next season.
But, yes the Board should have set him criteria for progression over the 3 year plan including squad make-up and style of football and as Fitz argues some of those criteria should be made public. That would include an improvement of in-game tactical & personnel flexibility or at least a reflective explanation of choices made.
The interviews are a problem - both lack of challenging questions and his answers; indeed that reflective explanation might attract fans, but as others have pointed out other managers (eg Hill) weren't immune from poor PR. Certainly comments like not being ready for the EFL whilst no doubt intended to take pressure off players send the wrong message to fans - good PR can be learnt.
I've also no idea if there are any experienced proven National League Managers available if he was sacked. How do you guarantee that the strengths of McNulty's leadership (Daley Lama's post) won't be lost with a new manager? As to the belief he can't change - wasn't the acquisition of Bird proof that he did know some of what the squad lacked - maybe he tried and there weren't such players available earlier?
Certainly he will have to deliver continual improvement and if Cedar Room is right that he is more Southgate than Ferguson the Board will need options in 9 months time.
Indeed I've no idea how you guarantee success in any part of life - not doing the same thing that doesn't work sounds so insightful but several thousand years of wars & famine suggest we humans aren't brilliant at that. | |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 13:26 - May 18 with 2087 views | Trev |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 12:05 - May 18 by tony_roch975 |
I've no idea what our playing budget was this season or how that ranks in the league or who McNulty tried to sign or who was or wasn't available but he's delivered 4th place, a historically good goal tally and home record, and a cup semi final.... so he starts next season.
But, yes the Board should have set him criteria for progression over the 3 year plan including squad make-up and style of football and as Fitz argues some of those criteria should be made public. That would include an improvement of in-game tactical & personnel flexibility or at least a reflective explanation of choices made.
The interviews are a problem - both lack of challenging questions and his answers; indeed that reflective explanation might attract fans, but as others have pointed out other managers (eg Hill) weren't immune from poor PR. Certainly comments like not being ready for the EFL whilst no doubt intended to take pressure off players send the wrong message to fans - good PR can be learnt.
I've also no idea if there are any experienced proven National League Managers available if he was sacked. How do you guarantee that the strengths of McNulty's leadership (Daley Lama's post) won't be lost with a new manager? As to the belief he can't change - wasn't the acquisition of Bird proof that he did know some of what the squad lacked - maybe he tried and there weren't such players available earlier?
Certainly he will have to deliver continual improvement and if Cedar Room is right that he is more Southgate than Ferguson the Board will need options in 9 months time.
Indeed I've no idea how you guarantee success in any part of life - not doing the same thing that doesn't work sounds so insightful but several thousand years of wars & famine suggest we humans aren't brilliant at that. |
I don't belive the Ogden's will ever back Jim significantly enough to expect him to win the league. That isn't a criticism and, indeed, coming into the club with talks of sustainability this stacks up. The problem is, it's a very forgiving league, we were an absolute shit show last season and still floated around the bottom of the play offs for most of it. Whilst we're in the play off picture sacking him becomes a big decision but, if the Ogdens want to be in the EFL in two years, they need to be prepared to make them. | | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 14:33 - May 18 with 1955 views | diplodocus |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:50 - May 18 by frenzied |
i think barring an absolute disaster at beginning of next season Jim will be in post this time next year even if we end up mid table.
It feels as if we have the mentality of a small cosy club who knows its place and the push to progress up the leagues is secondary to just plodding on.
The Ogdens have done a great job but at what cost to the true sporting ambition on the field? |
'Frenzied' by name= frenzied by nature. you were doing fine...until your last sentence. without the Ogden family the only ambition on the pitch would to grow more spuds than previous.  | | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 14:46 - May 18 with 1935 views | diplodocus |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 13:26 - May 18 by Trev |
I don't belive the Ogden's will ever back Jim significantly enough to expect him to win the league. That isn't a criticism and, indeed, coming into the club with talks of sustainability this stacks up. The problem is, it's a very forgiving league, we were an absolute shit show last season and still floated around the bottom of the play offs for most of it. Whilst we're in the play off picture sacking him becomes a big decision but, if the Ogdens want to be in the EFL in two years, they need to be prepared to make them. |
The Ogden family are not a money-mine. they have backed the towns football club as part of a wider 'investment' in Rochdale. if they are to continue, and invest money which they have no guarantee of ever getting back- and I've said this before- then the townsfolk need to step upto the plate, come hell or high water; because investing in the club is investing in the town. UTD!  | | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 16:19 - May 18 with 1782 views | TalkingSutty |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:50 - May 18 by frenzied |
i think barring an absolute disaster at beginning of next season Jim will be in post this time next year even if we end up mid table.
It feels as if we have the mentality of a small cosy club who knows its place and the push to progress up the leagues is secondary to just plodding on.
The Ogdens have done a great job but at what cost to the true sporting ambition on the field? |
There is no cost at all, we wouldn't have a club if it wasn't for the Ogden family. This is a professional football club though and standing still and being comfortable is akin to going backwards in football. Everybody from the cleaner to the owner must have a desire every day to improve the club and most importantly to win. It should be demanded from everybody in the building. If that's not happening then you will be left behind. The Ogden family needed to stabilise the club, they will still have a long way to go in respect of that. They've employed people to progress us on the pitch, at the moment we have a manager who has suggested on numerous occasions that we can't achieve because other clubs have more clout and budgets. Barnet won the league at a canter, they didn't have the highest budget. He had the budget to keep signing wide players and discarding them, why couldn't he have signed a permanent goalkeeper with a fraction of that budget? A midfield general? A forward who provided a physical threat? It's a bit rich him complaining about the budget when you look at the numbers of players he was allowed to sign. [Post edited 18 May 16:25]
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:00 - May 18 with 1324 views | 49thseason |
another thought I had was about it needing 3 seasons of relative success to boost crowds and set clubs on an upwards trajectory, so 2 more seasons to continue to improve the club all round seems a reasonable timescale. The more success the club has, particularly at home, the more gates will grow, the easier sponsorship deals become and the more cash comes in. Looking back, Notts County, Stockport and Wrexham had long-ish periods in this division, building the fan base, improving the squad and moving up the division, its a process not a one season wonder for most clubs, especially those that have dropped down to this level having been established lower league clubs , an opportunity to break with the past and rebuild for the future...and I think that's how we should see it, No doubt we could have done better this season with lady luck on our side, , that was opportunity scorned, perhaps, but the process continued and we are all-round better as a club right now than probably at any time this decade. with new owners starting to implement their vision and a higher calibre of staff to deliver it..
The despair has warn off somewhat now , I will get my season ticket next week and am ready to go again.. Its really all we can do. but if next season is better than this, we will surely be up where it counts.... |  | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:30 - May 18 with 1240 views | 442Dale |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:00 - May 18 by 49thseason |
another thought I had was about it needing 3 seasons of relative success to boost crowds and set clubs on an upwards trajectory, so 2 more seasons to continue to improve the club all round seems a reasonable timescale. The more success the club has, particularly at home, the more gates will grow, the easier sponsorship deals become and the more cash comes in. Looking back, Notts County, Stockport and Wrexham had long-ish periods in this division, building the fan base, improving the squad and moving up the division, its a process not a one season wonder for most clubs, especially those that have dropped down to this level having been established lower league clubs , an opportunity to break with the past and rebuild for the future...and I think that's how we should see it, No doubt we could have done better this season with lady luck on our side, , that was opportunity scorned, perhaps, but the process continued and we are all-round better as a club right now than probably at any time this decade. with new owners starting to implement their vision and a higher calibre of staff to deliver it..
The despair has warn off somewhat now , I will get my season ticket next week and am ready to go again.. Its really all we can do. but if next season is better than this, we will surely be up where it counts.... |
Added to that, after Dean Brennan took over at Barnet in Sept. 2021 it took them four seasons to get promoted. They finished 18th, 5th (knocked out at home in the playoff eliminator), 2nd (knocked out, 4-0 home defeat, in the playoff semi) and then champions this year. [Post edited 18 May 22:35]
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 00:04 - May 19 with 1121 views | James1980 |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:30 - May 18 by 442Dale |
Added to that, after Dean Brennan took over at Barnet in Sept. 2021 it took them four seasons to get promoted. They finished 18th, 5th (knocked out at home in the playoff eliminator), 2nd (knocked out, 4-0 home defeat, in the playoff semi) and then champions this year. [Post edited 18 May 22:35]
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Any lurking Barnet fans want to give a run down on why you stuck with Brennan? | |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 06:09 - May 19 with 965 views | TalkingSutty |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 22:30 - May 18 by 442Dale |
Added to that, after Dean Brennan took over at Barnet in Sept. 2021 it took them four seasons to get promoted. They finished 18th, 5th (knocked out at home in the playoff eliminator), 2nd (knocked out, 4-0 home defeat, in the playoff semi) and then champions this year. [Post edited 18 May 22:35]
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Opposites when it comes to how they view the game though. Brennan will call his players out if they don't meet his high demands. He doesn't sugar coat his interviews neither, he's passionate and obsessed with winning football matches and scoring goals. I've listened to a lot of his interviews and he's very demanding from everybody. He doesnt have to be mates with the players, its a place of work for everybody and he's in charge. One of McNultys biggest failings this season was his criminal under use of Ian Henderson, he hardly played before Christmas and was only introduced because of injury to other players. Best mates arranging before the start of the season how many games Henderson could play. He was wasted for a large chunk of it. Poor management again. Just like collecting wide players, not utilising Ian Henderson was wasting the budget.
Brennan hasn't had a big budget to work with neither, there's a long interview somewhere with a London radio station and in it he describes the opposition as pretty irrelevant, its all about the belief and desire that his team need to show in every game. If they do that they will win games at this level just on those two traits. He concentrates on playing football in the opponents half of the pitch. It's simplistic but it's worked. I believe Cameron Ogden is friendly with the owners of Barnet FC . Cambridge had a unique approach to games once under John Beck, they signed a team of giants and bullied every team they played, went long and bombarded the penalty area with long balls. It won them promotions and they knocked Man United out of the cup. It's not all about budgets and clout. It does take time though but you need a manager who has the desire, belief and tactical nouse to implement the plan. In this league it's all about scoring close to 100 goals a season and being ruthless from the first minute of games to the last. McNulty would find the pressure and expectation of that too much. Respect the point, clout and budgets, he didn't even look as though he had attended a football match in his Southend post match interview...everybody else looked like they'd been through an emotional roller coaster and he was smiling and relaxed about what had just played out. The exact opposite of how you would have expected a manager to be, having just been knocked out of the play offs. Brennan would have been on the ceiling after that capitulation. That's the difference.
Something else to consider. I dont believe that those in the Boardroom were ever naive enough to expect McNulty to be at the club for the duration of the three year plan. Its very likely that he will either be sacked during that period, cherry picked by another club or he will leave for a different challenge of his own accord. I think it's likely one of those scenarios could take place within the next 6 months. Irrespective of what we think of the style of play, the levels that some of the performances have dipped to and his 'in game' management etc, McNultys appointment can never be viewed as a bad one. He's been the right manager at the right time and two seasons in the same job is longevity in football.
We now enter year two ( third season for the manager) with a increased budget and higher expectations, thats not something that will sit well with McNulty, respecting the point against inferior opponents won't be tolerated and the demands will be ramped up. That's the reason why i think we need a new manager and that shouldn't be viewed in a negative way, over a three year cycle it would be pretty normal to change the manager a couple of times. I think we now need a experienced manager who knows how to get a team promoted. Listening to McNulty i think deep down he knows he's going to struggle to progress us much further. Keep refering to other teams budgets and clout is the biggest clue. Before anybody asks i don't have access to the no doubt dozens of names who would apply for the job should it become vacant so i can't name a candidate, there would be plenty though. [Post edited 19 May 7:19]
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:24 - May 19 with 875 views | 442Dale |
Only mentioned Barnet to build upon 49thSeason’s post around time spent in the division before getting out of it. It shows how long it can take a club to build to promotion, whoever the manager is. They’re the most obvious recent example. | |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 08:11 - May 19 with 802 views | TalkingSutty |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:24 - May 19 by 442Dale |
Only mentioned Barnet to build upon 49thSeason’s post around time spent in the division before getting out of it. It shows how long it can take a club to build to promotion, whoever the manager is. They’re the most obvious recent example. |
There's a discussion to be had in respect of that also. If the EFL decided to bring the National League under it's umbrella and rebrand it as EFL3 would that be a league that we as fans would call our natural level? Looking at the finances and debt accrued by most teams currently in EFL2 i think it would. Would Dale fans be happy to see the Ogden family throwing millions of pounds away in a effort to make us competitive in EFL 2? I wouldn't be. Apart from the funding surrounding Academy status what is the benefit of achieving the three year plan and being promoted back to the EFL? The extra funding would be swallowed up in wages and would crowds significantly increase?
Looking at the make up of the National League next season, its going to be a good one with plenty of ex League clubs involved, a bit more Northern. Is it better to be a larger, more financially stable fish in a smaller pond, or a smaller financially strapped one in a bigger pond? The finances involved in L2 just to tread water are ridiculous. Is it worth jeopardising the future of the club if we can't financially sustain a return to the EFL? Losing football matches doesn't increase crowds.
Football needs a reset and so does the pyramid system and the finances, maybe the Ogdens should change the three year plan and just concentrate on getting the structure of the club right, increase crowds and see how the footballing landscape looks within the larger five year plan. Promotion might not be necessary to achieve our natural level and let's face it, at the moment building the infrastructure of the club and forging links with the community is more important than trying to keep our heads above the water in EFL2. Look what's happened to Accrington and Morecambe. I'd like to see the Ogden family spending their money on the infrastructure of the club, formulating a plan that would keep the club safe for the next generation, strengthening it's links with the community. I'd rather they did that than throw the finances at trying to keep us going in L2, possibly L1 and the constant struggle. It's the Ogdens club and they mentioned the three year plan so ultimately it's their call and they will know the finances involved. [Post edited 19 May 8:29]
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 08:27 - May 19 with 769 views | EllDale |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 07:24 - May 19 by 442Dale |
Only mentioned Barnet to build upon 49thSeason’s post around time spent in the division before getting out of it. It shows how long it can take a club to build to promotion, whoever the manager is. They’re the most obvious recent example. |
On the other side of the coin Gateshead were, until recently, often quoted as a club with the best template for eventual promotion; gradual improvement and evolution as a team year on year with a business model of polishing broken toys and selling them on.
Unfortunately for them that hasn’t happened.
It’s impossible to plot a graph showing steady improvement when you don’t know some of the variables involved. For example there are six new teams in the NL every year and each of them could be better than the clubs that they replace.
And you can’t legislate logically for injuries or loss of form. | | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 08:33 - May 19 with 752 views | fitzochris |
I think the point being made is that it took Barnet four years to finally win the title after Brennan got the job. That’s not a sign of a stroll, it’s a sign of persistence, planning and investment paying off over time.
I interviewed Dean Brennan for my book, and he was open about the financial support at Barnet. Their budget - despite a small fan base - has been competitive because the chairman has been putting in his “family inheritance” season after season. That’s on the record, in the book. So yes, I’d say Barnet, for the past two seasons, have punched above us financially in terms of playing budget. Whether that continues to be the case with continued Ogden investment here remains unknown but, with decent backing, it still took Brennan four years to achieve his aim. I think that’s the point being made.
People might praise Brennan’s management style over McNulty’s, but people lead in different ways, and effectiveness doesn’t always look the same. Maybe McNulty does need a more visible ruthless streak - BBM probably did too - but there’s definitely more to McNulty than the calm, placid public-facing exterior. On a stadium tour, for example, he told two young fans that he’d had to have some harsh words with a player who wasn’t starting. He said it straight: in football, sometimes you have to be the “bad guy.” That side of him clearly exists. I don’t think there’s any doubt around the halls of the COA that he’s the man in charge.
That said, McNulty does need to consider how he comes across in interviews. The language matters, even if too much is made of it sometimes. Supporters want to feel ambition reflected back at them, and tone can influence that. Referencing clout is fine if it’s consistent. We have a lot more clout than a good number of teams we’ve come a cropper against at this level, so the door needs to swing both ways.
For me now, that’s the test for next season. We don’t have masses of players out of contract, so we need to build on that this summer, with appropriate financial backing, filling key positions with experience as well as ability. I think we all know the areas - a spine effectively - a no.1, a midfield destroyer and at least one centre forward of the type Jay Bird proved to be. Then, McNulty needs to find a consistent way to see off both the big hitters and the low-block brigade. Only teams that manage to do this can hope to get out of this league.
I think it’s only fair for supporters to dictate that anything less than what was achieved this season the next would be deemed regression and not acceptable.
However, on that note, it’s worth remembering the Ogdens have set long-term objectives for the head coach. We only really know what the year three goal is. The rest? We’re guessing. It might help if more of those benchmarks were made public, so supporters can gauge whether the club’s vision aligns with their own season-by-season hopes. |  |
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 09:11 - May 19 with 662 views | TalkingSutty |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 08:33 - May 19 by fitzochris |
I think the point being made is that it took Barnet four years to finally win the title after Brennan got the job. That’s not a sign of a stroll, it’s a sign of persistence, planning and investment paying off over time.
I interviewed Dean Brennan for my book, and he was open about the financial support at Barnet. Their budget - despite a small fan base - has been competitive because the chairman has been putting in his “family inheritance” season after season. That’s on the record, in the book. So yes, I’d say Barnet, for the past two seasons, have punched above us financially in terms of playing budget. Whether that continues to be the case with continued Ogden investment here remains unknown but, with decent backing, it still took Brennan four years to achieve his aim. I think that’s the point being made.
People might praise Brennan’s management style over McNulty’s, but people lead in different ways, and effectiveness doesn’t always look the same. Maybe McNulty does need a more visible ruthless streak - BBM probably did too - but there’s definitely more to McNulty than the calm, placid public-facing exterior. On a stadium tour, for example, he told two young fans that he’d had to have some harsh words with a player who wasn’t starting. He said it straight: in football, sometimes you have to be the “bad guy.” That side of him clearly exists. I don’t think there’s any doubt around the halls of the COA that he’s the man in charge.
That said, McNulty does need to consider how he comes across in interviews. The language matters, even if too much is made of it sometimes. Supporters want to feel ambition reflected back at them, and tone can influence that. Referencing clout is fine if it’s consistent. We have a lot more clout than a good number of teams we’ve come a cropper against at this level, so the door needs to swing both ways.
For me now, that’s the test for next season. We don’t have masses of players out of contract, so we need to build on that this summer, with appropriate financial backing, filling key positions with experience as well as ability. I think we all know the areas - a spine effectively - a no.1, a midfield destroyer and at least one centre forward of the type Jay Bird proved to be. Then, McNulty needs to find a consistent way to see off both the big hitters and the low-block brigade. Only teams that manage to do this can hope to get out of this league.
I think it’s only fair for supporters to dictate that anything less than what was achieved this season the next would be deemed regression and not acceptable.
However, on that note, it’s worth remembering the Ogdens have set long-term objectives for the head coach. We only really know what the year three goal is. The rest? We’re guessing. It might help if more of those benchmarks were made public, so supporters can gauge whether the club’s vision aligns with their own season-by-season hopes. |
That's all very well but if McNulty insists on keep mentioning budgets and clout then Barnet can be held up as a example. They haven't been operating with the largest budget over the last four years, or the season just finished. They didn't just win the league, they walked it. In the interest of consistency he needs to regurgitate his point about budgets and clout when we routinely fail to beat some of the poorest teams in the league.
McNulty is also tactically inept, we've seen that plenty of times. When the pressure is on and the big games came around he becomes the weakest link, he mentally retreats rather than goes on the front foot, to the extent that he even gives our opponents the psychological edge before a ball has been kicked, always a reason to fail . His media performances leave a lot to be desired and are just condescending, constantly mentioning the budget is also disrespectful to the Ogdens. You can tell with the post match interviews that McNulty's in charge, they're ridiculous. Barnet will have punched above us last season, we had very little money. McNulty only needs to finish in a play off place next season, nobody expects him to win the league, nobody expects him to win the play offs. There has to be more backbone shown though, less looking for excuses to fail, less of the negative ineptitude during games which has cost us big time this season. A team of men who can go toe to toe with the best and a manager who leads from the front and doesn't give a inch. I don't see McNulty has the man to provide that but we will see.
I was thinking during the Southend implosion...we have a goalkeeper that is more concerned with his ball control and distribution rather than doing the basics of saving shots, correct positioning and commanding his box. We have defenders more concerned about playing it out from the back than actually defending and winning headers, marking their man. A goalkeeper and defensive line who aren't actually doing the basics of their job, in preference to the modern way of coaching players. We simply couldn't handle any high balls into our area, why couldn't we? We saw it when Fondop scored against us for Oldham, completely unmarked and a free header. We have a centre forward who can't win a physical challenge or a header. A team lacking in muscle, physicality but decent at playing in pretty patterns. A team that can be bullied out of it. The posession based style works to a extent but against the better teams the old fashioned values in respect of winning your physical duals and defending properly still apply. It was a shambles throughout against Southend. That's something McNulty needs to address for next season. [Post edited 19 May 9:49]
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| Should he stay or should he go? on 09:33 - May 19 with 601 views | Duckegg |
Mentioning budgets like JM is sign of his mentality there is nothing that he can do about Dales budget or any other teams.
What he needs to do now is to concentrate and plan how to get out of this league and work on signings to step up a gear...
Also his pre match or post match interviews are truly mind numbing and boring he needs to change and to come across more upbeat etc..
He needs to listen to Daniel Farkes interviews and learn. |  | | |
| Should he stay or should he go? on 09:49 - May 19 with 560 views | ProudDale |
Having kicked this off, this thread should hopefully provide a useful barometer of the fans' feelings of the state of the Dale world.
What I think is obvious is that every fan wants a Jim v2.0 come the start of the season if he is to stay (which seems by far the most likely outcome). One that is more tactically flexible, one that is prepared to play faster more direct football at times. The option for the defence or the keeper to hit wingers who take on their man, and then deliver crosses, rather than reaching the 18 yard box and automatically passing backwards or inside. The recruitment requirements should be obvious to all - we need at least one Bird type up front, and Mitchell should be allowed to develop elsewhere. A stable, dominant keeper is another must, along with more power in the centre of midfield. The zonal marking also looked a car crash in some of the recent games, particularly the Southend one - and can we have a striker on the half way line at corners please. We don't know what's said inside the changing room, but the public Jim needs to be more confident, less reliant on repeating the same old rubbish about clout, and actually BELIEVE we can get promotion. If he doesn't believe it, what chance does anyone else at the Club?
The measure of success for next season isn't as binary as promotion or nothing. Raised crowd numbers and an improved atmosphere would be a major step in the right direction. For this to happen though the brand of football needs to be more exciting - there have been so many missed opportunities this season to engage the "floating fans" who have turned up on the big games, only to deliver the football equivalent of watching paint dry. It is an entertainment business after all, even if the long-standing Dale fans might have been forced to forget this on many occasions over our history.
If the leopard can't change its spots, I firmly agree with the view that any new appointment would need to be an experienced head, who knows this league and the pool of players well. Preferably with experience of getting promotion, or at least going deep into the playoffs. We have definitely tried the new kid on the block approach many, many times recently and seen the results. Ultimately only the Ogdens will know what's out there, and whether Jim can learn from past mistakes, and lets hope they make the right call. | | | |
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