| What is middle class nowadays? 16:08 - Jun 23 with 2204 views | PatfromPoole |
I suspect that like others on here, I have pretentions and even aspirations of being working-class, but in truth am fooling myself.
What are the qualifying criteria for being working-class?
I doubt I pass any of them. |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:16 - Jun 23 with 2185 views | TripleNiemi |
Consider myself Working Class and have no desire or pretensions about being anything else. Whilst some will love to think of themselves as much more, I really find this ‘class’ type society stuff horrendous. Part of the reason I love Australia is that they detest such ‘hierarchy’ and the snobbery that is so evident here in the UK.
As to what criteria one should apply, does owning your own home (with a huge mortgage loan) beat someone who is well off enough to rent a mansion on thousands per month? I really don’t know what criteria one could apply.
I went to school with some right dins (female), but since they married someone with a professional job now speak with a plumb in their mouth when common as muck. Total bollôx [Post edited 23 Jun 16:20]
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:19 - Jun 23 with 2176 views | Ron11 |
Growing up in a house with no central heating (just a coal fire downstairs, (ice inside the windows on winter's nights) no bathroom (zinc bath on a hook outside the back door) only an outside toilet with a paraffin heater to stop it freezing up in the winter, no telephone and no car. |  | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 17:09 - Jun 23 with 2096 views | mushinexile |
If you need next mont's pay cheque to survive, you are working class. I'm in the class below. I need next month's pension payment! | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 22:10 - Jun 23 with 1901 views | SaintNick |
Working class are those who work hard for their living, they are perhaps not the highest paid, but they have family values and a sense of what is right and wrong, they care about the community around them and look at everyone as equal and deserving respect.
Its not something to be looked down on, personally i believe that everyone should have the right to the basics, healthcare, equal opportunities etc, but if someone wants to work harder to better themselves that is there choice.
It is just as wrong to refuse a child healthcare just because his family send him to private school as was in the news recently as it is to refuse someone who has no money healthcare |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 22:24 - Jun 23 with 1893 views | dirk_doone |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 22:10 - Jun 23 by SaintNick |
Working class are those who work hard for their living, they are perhaps not the highest paid, but they have family values and a sense of what is right and wrong, they care about the community around them and look at everyone as equal and deserving respect.
Its not something to be looked down on, personally i believe that everyone should have the right to the basics, healthcare, equal opportunities etc, but if someone wants to work harder to better themselves that is there choice.
It is just as wrong to refuse a child healthcare just because his family send him to private school as was in the news recently as it is to refuse someone who has no money healthcare |
"they care about the community around them and look at everyone as equal and deserving respect"
I thought we were talking about England, not Denmark. |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 22:43 - Jun 23 with 1865 views | Southamptonfan |
Class doesn't really exist nowadays I would say. You certainly have rich, poor and in-between. Working class used to be a very positive term for "the workers", who worked hard and looked after each other, knew right from wrong, the family / working man, but weren't the boss or rich (the miners, milkmen etc). Who are these people today? Who looks out for each other, looks after their community, looks after their family?
Likewise, who are the upper class? Wearing a suit? Wearing a crown? Speaks in a posh voice? Someone who has won the lottery or is now very rich because they have had lots of hits on YouTube? It's a whole different world now.
I also said the working man. That was a phrase back in the day. You probably arn't allowed to say it nowadays. [Post edited 23 Jun 22:52]
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 23:00 - Jun 23 with 1828 views | PatfromPoole |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 22:10 - Jun 23 by SaintNick |
Working class are those who work hard for their living, they are perhaps not the highest paid, but they have family values and a sense of what is right and wrong, they care about the community around them and look at everyone as equal and deserving respect.
Its not something to be looked down on, personally i believe that everyone should have the right to the basics, healthcare, equal opportunities etc, but if someone wants to work harder to better themselves that is there choice.
It is just as wrong to refuse a child healthcare just because his family send him to private school as was in the news recently as it is to refuse someone who has no money healthcare |
So where is the line drawn between working class and middle class?
I have been descriptions on here of music festivals as being for the middle class.
That may be right or wrong.
But if one were to look at most of the people who go to music festivals, they would fit your description of working class.
I don’t think there is ever going to be agreement on this issue.
Much like many others between you and I, Nick  | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 07:52 - Jun 24 with 1634 views | SaintNick |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 23:00 - Jun 23 by PatfromPoole |
So where is the line drawn between working class and middle class?
I have been descriptions on here of music festivals as being for the middle class.
That may be right or wrong.
But if one were to look at most of the people who go to music festivals, they would fit your description of working class.
I don’t think there is ever going to be agreement on this issue.
Much like many others between you and I, Nick |
There is no disagreement just discussion, probably issue here is not who is working class, but the different definitions, for some it is a class thing, those who like to flaunt their working class credentials, often they are people who by the true definition have always been middle class.
So it is how you define working class, is it some trendy label, that you need to have if you want street cred, a bit like some indie band leading the crowd in a rendition of **** the tories to make themselves popular.
Or is it about living in a council house where you and your parents before you work in manual/so called menial jobs.
This isnt a new thing, John Lennon himself was brought up in a middle class environment and as a child it was said he did not have a strong Scouse accent, the rest of the Beatles were truly middle class and the early part of his career perfecting his accent and putting himself forward as working class.
He then tried to turn it around again and from the late 60's it was more about art and giving peace a chance and living in luxury.
Nothing wrong for that, everyone should aspire to achieve things in life.
So working class is many things to many people | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 08:21 - Jun 24 with 1620 views | dixiefrog |
Interesting comments from everyone, but nobody’s yet mentioned that in todays society we now seem to have four tiers rather than the traditional three.
Upper, middle and working class used to be the norm, but we now also seem to have the shameless class which depending upon the ingenuity of the person, sits them either above or below the working class position.
I’m referring of course to the person who hasn’t worked a day in their lives, knows how to claim every benefit in Christendom, is probably the second or third generation of the family to have adopted this lifestyle and will still get 100% of their state pension when they ‘retire’.
Now I’m not talking about the people who genuinely need support, but the hundreds of thousands (or more) who know how to play the system, have no job or any intention of getting one, have zero outgoings, a flash car on the driveway, two or three overseas holidays per year and despite all this, still complain about how badly they are done by.
Controversial I know, but who else is fed up with contributing their hard earned to this ‘class’ of person. | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 09:25 - Jun 24 with 1563 views | arfurdent |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:19 - Jun 23 by Ron11 |
Growing up in a house with no central heating (just a coal fire downstairs, (ice inside the windows on winter's nights) no bathroom (zinc bath on a hook outside the back door) only an outside toilet with a paraffin heater to stop it freezing up in the winter, no telephone and no car. |
that is exactly where I grew up, it certainly makes you appreciate money and possessions. We were not the only ones. I was lucky enough to "improve things" as I grew up. |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 11:54 - Jun 24 with 1446 views | saintmark1976 |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 08:21 - Jun 24 by dixiefrog |
Interesting comments from everyone, but nobody’s yet mentioned that in todays society we now seem to have four tiers rather than the traditional three.
Upper, middle and working class used to be the norm, but we now also seem to have the shameless class which depending upon the ingenuity of the person, sits them either above or below the working class position.
I’m referring of course to the person who hasn’t worked a day in their lives, knows how to claim every benefit in Christendom, is probably the second or third generation of the family to have adopted this lifestyle and will still get 100% of their state pension when they ‘retire’.
Now I’m not talking about the people who genuinely need support, but the hundreds of thousands (or more) who know how to play the system, have no job or any intention of getting one, have zero outgoings, a flash car on the driveway, two or three overseas holidays per year and despite all this, still complain about how badly they are done by.
Controversial I know, but who else is fed up with contributing their hard earned to this ‘class’ of person. |
“I’m referring of course to the person who hasn’t worked a day in their lives, etc etc.”
That’s no way to talk about King Charles and the Royal Family dixiefrog.
Reference Benefits.The last available figures show that £23 Billion was unclaimed annually. Makes you think doesn’t it ? | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 12:40 - Jun 24 with 1397 views | franniesTache |
I find it interesting seeing people say that class isn't a thing anymore. Personally i'd probably have been of a similar opinion but moving to London and working at the top edges of industry has taught me otherwise.
As someone who grew up in the corridor of southampton between swaythling and st mary's - i went to school on the flower roads and lived in bevois valley/portswood, and knocked around st mary's and northam - i'd never met anyone who went to private school and everyone seemed pretty similar to me (some with more money some with less, but the difference wasn't huge).
But moving to london i was first confronted with the mahogany ceiling. The top of my industry - and i assume most others - is entirely staffed by people who've been to private or public school, only 8% of the population went to private/public school but i'd be stunned if even 8% of the top of my industry went to comprehensive school.
It was really eye opening moving and working here, you suddenly realise that class isn't about money (though money is a big difference), people from those backgrounds walk into the top jobs and top industries through their networks, they never really have any fear of losing a job because many don't need them, and they have so many little tells i didn't even know existed.
For example i had no idea what the "signet ring on the little finger" meant (it's the ring of the school they went to) and there are definitely jobs us normal people won't even know exist as they go straight to them.
Then there's the business aspect of it too, those people got big contracts because they were friends with important people.
One of my bosses was at David Cameron's wedding, another went to school with most of the cabinet and a huge amount of leads and work came from "their network".
I'd actually argue that now the gap between poor and middle class is smaller now than the gap between middle class and upper class (and not in a good way).
Also the opportunities are massively bigger and the impact of damaging things like brexit much lower.
The proper elites, the Farage's, the Lowe's, the Cameron's etc. are utterly protected in ways most of us aren't, and having met their types personally they hold the rest of us in such contempt (i've heard them openly mock working people in this country) |  | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 13:56 - Jun 24 with 1328 views | Bazza |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 12:40 - Jun 24 by franniesTache |
I find it interesting seeing people say that class isn't a thing anymore. Personally i'd probably have been of a similar opinion but moving to London and working at the top edges of industry has taught me otherwise.
As someone who grew up in the corridor of southampton between swaythling and st mary's - i went to school on the flower roads and lived in bevois valley/portswood, and knocked around st mary's and northam - i'd never met anyone who went to private school and everyone seemed pretty similar to me (some with more money some with less, but the difference wasn't huge).
But moving to london i was first confronted with the mahogany ceiling. The top of my industry - and i assume most others - is entirely staffed by people who've been to private or public school, only 8% of the population went to private/public school but i'd be stunned if even 8% of the top of my industry went to comprehensive school.
It was really eye opening moving and working here, you suddenly realise that class isn't about money (though money is a big difference), people from those backgrounds walk into the top jobs and top industries through their networks, they never really have any fear of losing a job because many don't need them, and they have so many little tells i didn't even know existed.
For example i had no idea what the "signet ring on the little finger" meant (it's the ring of the school they went to) and there are definitely jobs us normal people won't even know exist as they go straight to them.
Then there's the business aspect of it too, those people got big contracts because they were friends with important people.
One of my bosses was at David Cameron's wedding, another went to school with most of the cabinet and a huge amount of leads and work came from "their network".
I'd actually argue that now the gap between poor and middle class is smaller now than the gap between middle class and upper class (and not in a good way).
Also the opportunities are massively bigger and the impact of damaging things like brexit much lower.
The proper elites, the Farage's, the Lowe's, the Cameron's etc. are utterly protected in ways most of us aren't, and having met their types personally they hold the rest of us in such contempt (i've heard them openly mock working people in this country) |
I relate to much of your post in the IT world except that it was freemasonry that seemed to hold the golden tickets to the top table in my company. | | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 14:22 - Jun 24 with 1304 views | franniesTache |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 13:56 - Jun 24 by Bazza |
I relate to much of your post in the IT world except that it was freemasonry that seemed to hold the golden tickets to the top table in my company. |
it's pretty depressing when you discover what's going on isn't it? Makes you realise you're f*cked before you even start | | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 14:47 - Jun 24 with 1276 views | TripleNiemi |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 12:40 - Jun 24 by franniesTache |
I find it interesting seeing people say that class isn't a thing anymore. Personally i'd probably have been of a similar opinion but moving to London and working at the top edges of industry has taught me otherwise.
As someone who grew up in the corridor of southampton between swaythling and st mary's - i went to school on the flower roads and lived in bevois valley/portswood, and knocked around st mary's and northam - i'd never met anyone who went to private school and everyone seemed pretty similar to me (some with more money some with less, but the difference wasn't huge).
But moving to london i was first confronted with the mahogany ceiling. The top of my industry - and i assume most others - is entirely staffed by people who've been to private or public school, only 8% of the population went to private/public school but i'd be stunned if even 8% of the top of my industry went to comprehensive school.
It was really eye opening moving and working here, you suddenly realise that class isn't about money (though money is a big difference), people from those backgrounds walk into the top jobs and top industries through their networks, they never really have any fear of losing a job because many don't need them, and they have so many little tells i didn't even know existed.
For example i had no idea what the "signet ring on the little finger" meant (it's the ring of the school they went to) and there are definitely jobs us normal people won't even know exist as they go straight to them.
Then there's the business aspect of it too, those people got big contracts because they were friends with important people.
One of my bosses was at David Cameron's wedding, another went to school with most of the cabinet and a huge amount of leads and work came from "their network".
I'd actually argue that now the gap between poor and middle class is smaller now than the gap between middle class and upper class (and not in a good way).
Also the opportunities are massively bigger and the impact of damaging things like brexit much lower.
The proper elites, the Farage's, the Lowe's, the Cameron's etc. are utterly protected in ways most of us aren't, and having met their types personally they hold the rest of us in such contempt (i've heard them openly mock working people in this country) |
I’m with you FT. Each to their own and we all move in different circles, but I cannot believe those whom suggest there is no class divide. I would go so far as to say it is as strong as ever. We have it in our place, new C.E. rocks into town every five or six years and I guarantee you, they will have gone to OxBridge or some high ranking University. The joke is, they often come in, bügger things up and then move on to the next role. Their C.V’s literally say what they have saved in spend, or how much they have increased revenue when half the time it’s a pure fabrication.
My ex misses folks all had Cugnet rings - the true sign off class showing its head. I think though they had a practical use in the days as you could wax seal envelopes and contracts / paperwork with your family crest or Coat of Arms. [Post edited 24 Jun 15:57]
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 15:14 - Jun 24 with 1253 views | saintmark1976 |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 14:22 - Jun 24 by franniesTache |
it's pretty depressing when you discover what's going on isn't it? Makes you realise you're f*cked before you even start |
Who’s the head of the Freemasons in the UK and most of the Commonwealth according to Wikipedia?
No surprise really, it’s H R H The Duke of Kent. Prince Phillip was also a member.
Isn’t it also suggested that significant numbers of the Constabulary and Judiciary are involved as well ? | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:04 - Jun 24 with 1203 views | franniesTache |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 15:14 - Jun 24 by saintmark1976 |
Who’s the head of the Freemasons in the UK and most of the Commonwealth according to Wikipedia?
No surprise really, it’s H R H The Duke of Kent. Prince Phillip was also a member.
Isn’t it also suggested that significant numbers of the Constabulary and Judiciary are involved as well ? |
Can't say i really know much about the Masons to be honest, i'm actually surprised they're still a thing though as you'd have thought stuff like that would've been shut down years ago | | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:13 - Jun 24 with 1190 views | arfurdent |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:04 - Jun 24 by franniesTache |
Can't say i really know much about the Masons to be honest, i'm actually surprised they're still a thing though as you'd have thought stuff like that would've been shut down years ago |
those with the power to shut them down are up to their armpits in masonry | |
| So Long and Thanks for all the Fish |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 16:59 - Jun 24 with 1136 views | kingslandstand1 |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 08:21 - Jun 24 by dixiefrog |
Interesting comments from everyone, but nobody’s yet mentioned that in todays society we now seem to have four tiers rather than the traditional three.
Upper, middle and working class used to be the norm, but we now also seem to have the shameless class which depending upon the ingenuity of the person, sits them either above or below the working class position.
I’m referring of course to the person who hasn’t worked a day in their lives, knows how to claim every benefit in Christendom, is probably the second or third generation of the family to have adopted this lifestyle and will still get 100% of their state pension when they ‘retire’.
Now I’m not talking about the people who genuinely need support, but the hundreds of thousands (or more) who know how to play the system, have no job or any intention of getting one, have zero outgoings, a flash car on the driveway, two or three overseas holidays per year and despite all this, still complain about how badly they are done by.
Controversial I know, but who else is fed up with contributing their hard earned to this ‘class’ of person. |
What's controversial about highlighting the number of scroungers we have in this country, who are basically taking the pi55 out of those (us) who have worked their bolox off or done their best to earn deccent crust
Yes, obviously there are deserving causes, but there are a helluva lot who are not and know the system |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 17:04 - Jun 24 with 1134 views | cocklebreath |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 08:21 - Jun 24 by dixiefrog |
Interesting comments from everyone, but nobody’s yet mentioned that in todays society we now seem to have four tiers rather than the traditional three.
Upper, middle and working class used to be the norm, but we now also seem to have the shameless class which depending upon the ingenuity of the person, sits them either above or below the working class position.
I’m referring of course to the person who hasn’t worked a day in their lives, knows how to claim every benefit in Christendom, is probably the second or third generation of the family to have adopted this lifestyle and will still get 100% of their state pension when they ‘retire’.
Now I’m not talking about the people who genuinely need support, but the hundreds of thousands (or more) who know how to play the system, have no job or any intention of getting one, have zero outgoings, a flash car on the driveway, two or three overseas holidays per year and despite all this, still complain about how badly they are done by.
Controversial I know, but who else is fed up with contributing their hard earned to this ‘class’ of person. |
That’s known as the scum class. |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 17:18 - Jun 24 with 1120 views | kingslandstand1 |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 22:10 - Jun 23 by SaintNick |
Working class are those who work hard for their living, they are perhaps not the highest paid, but they have family values and a sense of what is right and wrong, they care about the community around them and look at everyone as equal and deserving respect.
Its not something to be looked down on, personally i believe that everyone should have the right to the basics, healthcare, equal opportunities etc, but if someone wants to work harder to better themselves that is there choice.
It is just as wrong to refuse a child healthcare just because his family send him to private school as was in the news recently as it is to refuse someone who has no money healthcare |
So are you saying the highest paid do not work hard for a living, or have family values? | |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 18:18 - Jun 24 with 1076 views | Ifonly |
"Working class are those who work hard for their living"
WALOB. I know a few people that are traditional working class and for most of my middle class career I've worked far longer hours than they do (I'm semi retired now). My solidly middle class parents (engineer and school teacher) also worked very hard and had strong family values. I know lots of middle class people and don't know any that didn't have to work hard.
To answer Pat's original question, my helpful AI tells me that "In the UK, the working class is generally characterized by a combination of factors including occupation, income, education, and social background, with a strong emphasis on manual labor and limited economic, social, and cultural capital." i.e. no IOW festival goers. But, as others have said the idea of just upper, middle and working class is out of date.
To get a better answer, try this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2013/newsspec_5093/index.stm
It's based on the largest ever study of class in the UK and seems to me to produce reasonable results based on very few questions, so worth having a go. | | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 18:44 - Jun 24 with 1051 views | Heisenberg |
Marx got it pretty much spot on and if adapted for the modern era still applies. |  |
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| What is middle class nowadays? on 19:05 - Jun 24 with 1046 views | SouthSeaSaint |
Like Ron 11, I grew up on a Council Estate and our family made our way without a car, phone, proper heating, a 14" rented TV, days out on the Common or Sports Centre and my Mum with no fridge or washing machine or other of today's household basics..
We were no different to others on our Estate and I guess we would be classed as Working Class but my mother did all she could to try to make us move to the next level.
Always well turned out and respectful to others.
None of our family relied on benefits and you cut your cloth to the amount of money coming into the house.
I got a paper round to pay for my trips to The Dell and occasional away games.
A 10/- note (50p!!) for a birthday or Christmas gift was looked upon as a decent present.
When I bought my first house (for £9k), the interest rate was 17%, so I worked two nights a week (hated it) and also a Saturday (not a bad option but meant that I missed football) to pay the mortgage.
My kids wouldnt do that nor would many others in todays world.
I am now fortunate to earn a six figure sum but believe I still retain the principles instilled in me by my upbringing and I am sure many people my age share the same disciplined life.
I dont live the high life, generally holiday at home and will buy a 12/24 month old car to replace my 10 year old (well maintained) car as I want to help my kids in such a difficult and challenging world.
It used to be the difference between working and middle class is that the later wore a tie.
Not so nowadays.
I just wish people were more respectful and not to expect so much from life.
Problem is the expectation level is now kicked on to an unsustainable level. | | | |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 19:54 - Jun 24 with 1001 views | PatfromPoole |
| What is middle class nowadays? on 18:18 - Jun 24 by Ifonly |
"Working class are those who work hard for their living"
WALOB. I know a few people that are traditional working class and for most of my middle class career I've worked far longer hours than they do (I'm semi retired now). My solidly middle class parents (engineer and school teacher) also worked very hard and had strong family values. I know lots of middle class people and don't know any that didn't have to work hard.
To answer Pat's original question, my helpful AI tells me that "In the UK, the working class is generally characterized by a combination of factors including occupation, income, education, and social background, with a strong emphasis on manual labor and limited economic, social, and cultural capital." i.e. no IOW festival goers. But, as others have said the idea of just upper, middle and working class is out of date.
To get a better answer, try this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2013/newsspec_5093/index.stm
It's based on the largest ever study of class in the UK and seems to me to produce reasonable results based on very few questions, so worth having a go. |
Interesting test, that.
As I suspected / feared, by my test results I am established middle class.
Therefore Nick was right about me being at the IOW Festival 
But I note that those questions don't particularly focus on people's circumstances when they were younger. | |
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