| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:21 - Oct 13 with 3533 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Excellent.
Look forward to reading it.
Thanks Andrew. |  |
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:42 - Oct 13 with 3447 views | WatfordR |
Re the actuality vs game model, I'd like to think that our approach to a game model is flexible enough to recognise a change/evolution in how the game is played over time.
If a number of teams, including importantly mid and lower Prem teams {where we are most likely to attract interest in our players from}, are moving to a more direct style, then sticking stubbornly to a model that was conceived over 18 months ago wouldn't make much sense |  | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:47 - Oct 13 with 3431 views | Northernr |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:42 - Oct 13 by WatfordR |
Re the actuality vs game model, I'd like to think that our approach to a game model is flexible enough to recognise a change/evolution in how the game is played over time.
If a number of teams, including importantly mid and lower Prem teams {where we are most likely to attract interest in our players from}, are moving to a more direct style, then sticking stubbornly to a model that was conceived over 18 months ago wouldn't make much sense |
Funny you should say this, we've another piece coming tomorrow... |  | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:02 - Oct 13 with 3322 views | QPR_Jim |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:42 - Oct 13 by WatfordR |
Re the actuality vs game model, I'd like to think that our approach to a game model is flexible enough to recognise a change/evolution in how the game is played over time.
If a number of teams, including importantly mid and lower Prem teams {where we are most likely to attract interest in our players from}, are moving to a more direct style, then sticking stubbornly to a model that was conceived over 18 months ago wouldn't make much sense |
Is 18 months a long time now then? I thought the idea of having a game model was that we were consistent over a long period of time, not changing it more frequently than our manager.
I think it was just the wrong strategy to begin with, as he says in that archived interview, the strategy was set “by looking at the last 10 years of the Championship and what won you points" so we're already looking to the past to predict the future. Doesn't seem to be a lot on nuance about the limitations we have compared to the teams with bigger budgets who can buy players to play whatever system they want. To me it seems poorly conceived from the beginning.
If we move away from that now and decide on a new strategy then I'm all for it, especially if the first team results keep going the way they are. But we can't change it again in another 18 months it would defeat the object and be a massive failure of planning on the clubs part. |  | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:11 - Oct 13 with 3292 views | BrianMcCarthy |
We ditched the game model three months after that article.
I'm not opposed to changing our game model, or having one, but it is important to figure out if we still have one, why we keep changing and - crucially - whether we are recruiting players and managers for the game model. | |
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:21 - Oct 13 with 3236 views | QPR_Jim |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:11 - Oct 13 by BrianMcCarthy |
We ditched the game model three months after that article.
I'm not opposed to changing our game model, or having one, but it is important to figure out if we still have one, why we keep changing and - crucially - whether we are recruiting players and managers for the game model. |
The data presented suggests that we went back to the game model for the last 15 games under Marti and started this season similarly trying to control possession.
I too don't mind us changing the game model, lessons learned etc but it needs to fare better than 18 months next time. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:29 - Oct 13 with 3184 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:21 - Oct 13 by QPR_Jim |
The data presented suggests that we went back to the game model for the last 15 games under Marti and started this season similarly trying to control possession.
I too don't mind us changing the game model, lessons learned etc but it needs to fare better than 18 months next time. |
I agree, Jim, and we could see that ourselves, to be fair.
And if we ditched it once, why did we go back to it again, and then ditch it again? | |
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 18:18 - Oct 13 with 3008 views | dmm |
Many thanks to Andrew for his detailed analysis. Like many on here, I do struggle a little with Opta stats etc but Andrew's explanation is clear enough. And his journalistic endeavors to find Nourry's comments on the 'game model' is exemplary.
I think most of us see what Andrew is pointing out on the field of play but to have it described in this article is very helpful. Personally, I'd say, Stephan has it spot on just now. |  | | |
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 18:27 - Oct 13 with 2971 views | queensparker |
If this is the death of Pep ball across the board, then I can't wait.
We've been singularly unfortunate as football fans to live through the decade of slavish adoption of this style. As we sang to early adopters Swansea all those years ago, "it's just like watching paint dry".
The one element that really gets my goat is the constant sight of wingers dribbling clear on the wing, stopping, and passing back to their equivalent of Sam Field for the whole side-to-side to get going again and the oppo to reorganise.
I'm sure there's some nerds that have proved this is a good tactic, but I can't for the life of me see how a good first time cross isn't going to be a better option. As a defender for many years crosses were a nightmare. |  | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 19:10 - Oct 13 with 2837 views | kensalriser |
I know we like to characterise the Championship as a slop fest but in reality it is an elite level of football and it should be possible to coach teams to be flexible.
The best tennis players adapt their mode of play in game to neutralise or dominate an opponent and there's no reason why footballers shouldn't be able to do the same. |  |
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 19:14 - Oct 13 with 2825 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:11 - Oct 13 by BrianMcCarthy |
We ditched the game model three months after that article.
I'm not opposed to changing our game model, or having one, but it is important to figure out if we still have one, why we keep changing and - crucially - whether we are recruiting players and managers for the game model. |
This is the bit I really can't get my head around. If the club was so nailed onto the God awful possession for possession sakes style why did they never address the glaringly obvious problem in the midfield?
The players recruited were not suitable to play keep ball but are very suited to playing direct/counter attack.
I mean, I love Burrell but his first touch is pretty bad, yet give him something to chase over the top, he's great.
This season it feels like we are doing well by accident. Longer term that is concerning. |  |
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 19:59 - Oct 13 with 2709 views | WatfordR |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 17:02 - Oct 13 by QPR_Jim |
Is 18 months a long time now then? I thought the idea of having a game model was that we were consistent over a long period of time, not changing it more frequently than our manager.
I think it was just the wrong strategy to begin with, as he says in that archived interview, the strategy was set “by looking at the last 10 years of the Championship and what won you points" so we're already looking to the past to predict the future. Doesn't seem to be a lot on nuance about the limitations we have compared to the teams with bigger budgets who can buy players to play whatever system they want. To me it seems poorly conceived from the beginning.
If we move away from that now and decide on a new strategy then I'm all for it, especially if the first team results keep going the way they are. But we can't change it again in another 18 months it would defeat the object and be a massive failure of planning on the clubs part. |
Well any business would want to know about trends for their product as a matter of good practice, but you're not going to base your future strategy entirely on past trends. You're also going to be paying attention to what's happening now and what impact that mightl have on the future of your product.
I don't blame anyone in football for imagining the way forward was going to be the Pep/Man C style of possession, passing out from the back breaking lines and so on. The collapse of form City experienced last season would have been a huge shock to everyone, and in hindsight it's perhaps not surprising that football has begun to turn more direct as a result.
As far as a game model goes, I think it should be about trying to develop young footballers with certain characteristics which fit a "team/squad model". Good all round football skills (left and right foot)yes, but a will to win, an ability to add positively to the team ethic and togetherness, these are all important attributes, and I'd suggest many of the very best players will have high degrees of each. Trying to develop a 15/16 yo to play particular type of positional skills because they are in vogue now in the expectation they'll still be in vogue in 5+ years time is too specific to be guaranteed a s uccess.
My tuppence worth anyway. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 20:05 - Oct 13 with 2683 views | 1JD |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:42 - Oct 13 by WatfordR |
Re the actuality vs game model, I'd like to think that our approach to a game model is flexible enough to recognise a change/evolution in how the game is played over time.
If a number of teams, including importantly mid and lower Prem teams {where we are most likely to attract interest in our players from}, are moving to a more direct style, then sticking stubbornly to a model that was conceived over 18 months ago wouldn't make much sense |
The thing is if the shift to a so called more direct style is the talk of the town, then what you don’t do - strategically at least - is follow the crowd. Once a trend is a trend, it is already too late. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 22:26 - Oct 13 with 2405 views | WiliiamBlakeWasAnR |
Maybe all the game model means is that all levels of the club play a similar way, and that way can change, and that is fine. Which is to say there’s no tension between the game model idea and a more direct style of play (and therefore no tension in approach between on-pitch and off-pitch) and that all levels of the club will play this way soon. JS has adapted based on results and the club game model will follow. A less dramatic take on things, I know. [Post edited 13 Oct 22:28]
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 07:13 - Oct 14 with 1937 views | QPROslo |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 19:10 - Oct 13 by kensalriser |
I know we like to characterise the Championship as a slop fest but in reality it is an elite level of football and it should be possible to coach teams to be flexible.
The best tennis players adapt their mode of play in game to neutralise or dominate an opponent and there's no reason why footballers shouldn't be able to do the same. |
Yes, I'm with you on this. "Flexible" and "Adapt" are the key words for me. I think to be successful teams need to be able to adapt. If you only play direct, long ball, counter attacking football, or only continually try to play out from the back, possession based football, you are going to be found out either way. Mix it up and Nathan Jones and Charlton won't be the only team surprised by how we play. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 07:21 - Oct 14 with 1913 views | GroveR |
I thought this was going to be a Jay Emmanuel-Thomas thread. |  | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 07:36 - Oct 14 with 1855 views | dmm |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 07:13 - Oct 14 by QPROslo |
Yes, I'm with you on this. "Flexible" and "Adapt" are the key words for me. I think to be successful teams need to be able to adapt. If you only play direct, long ball, counter attacking football, or only continually try to play out from the back, possession based football, you are going to be found out either way. Mix it up and Nathan Jones and Charlton won't be the only team surprised by how we play. |
I don't think it's entirely true that if a team sticks to one style they'll get found out. Citeh, for example, successfully kept on their possession based football going for years.
However, I would agree that in our case we should mix it up, not only to keep the oppo guessing, but also because we don't have the quality to be really good at any one style. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 07:54 - Oct 14 with 1816 views | QPROslo |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 07:36 - Oct 14 by dmm |
I don't think it's entirely true that if a team sticks to one style they'll get found out. Citeh, for example, successfully kept on their possession based football going for years.
However, I would agree that in our case we should mix it up, not only to keep the oppo guessing, but also because we don't have the quality to be really good at any one style. |
City have the very top quality players finding them out is probably not easy, but though I don't see much PL football I get the impression they have varied their style especially this season. Releasing Haaland on the counter is a pretty good bet these days. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 08:39 - Oct 14 with 1697 views | Northernr |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 22:26 - Oct 13 by WiliiamBlakeWasAnR |
Maybe all the game model means is that all levels of the club play a similar way, and that way can change, and that is fine. Which is to say there’s no tension between the game model idea and a more direct style of play (and therefore no tension in approach between on-pitch and off-pitch) and that all levels of the club will play this way soon. JS has adapted based on results and the club game model will follow. A less dramatic take on things, I know. [Post edited 13 Oct 22:28]
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Without getting into semantics, you can't on the one hand say "we've got a game model we want all the teams within the club to play" and then flip the first team to 4-4-2, direct and counter attacking three games into the season and pretend that's still part of the model. Andrew has provided very specific quotes in the piece about what the game model is supposed to look like, and it ain't this.
I'm delighted though. We needed to adapt and we have. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 09:30 - Oct 14 with 1522 views | BrizR |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 08:39 - Oct 14 by Northernr |
Without getting into semantics, you can't on the one hand say "we've got a game model we want all the teams within the club to play" and then flip the first team to 4-4-2, direct and counter attacking three games into the season and pretend that's still part of the model. Andrew has provided very specific quotes in the piece about what the game model is supposed to look like, and it ain't this.
I'm delighted though. We needed to adapt and we have. |
I don't follow the DS at all really, do you have a sense of what they're doing? Are they still playing 433 or have they switched styles to match? | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 09:49 - Oct 14 with 1444 views | KensalT |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 19:10 - Oct 13 by kensalriser |
I know we like to characterise the Championship as a slop fest but in reality it is an elite level of football and it should be possible to coach teams to be flexible.
The best tennis players adapt their mode of play in game to neutralise or dominate an opponent and there's no reason why footballers shouldn't be able to do the same. |
Problem there is you are comparing a team sport of eleven aside which is supposed to be two 45 minute halves of continuous play with an individual sport which has plenty of breaks in play for the players to sit down and reassess.
Even in doubles tennis there are plenty of rest breaks to compare notes and agree strategy.
That's much harder to do in football where all eleven players need to be singing from the same song sheet.
It can be done but usually you need a lengthy break in play for the coach to get his message across to the players.
Charlton did do it to us recently where we caught them cold in the first half and Nathan Jones used a break in the play to get the players together and rejig their system.
So it can be done but it usually comes from the coach, who isn't on the pitch. Whereas in tennis the players can work it out for themselves. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 10:29 - Oct 14 with 1321 views | dm97 |
The whole “we’ve looked at the most successful teams of the past 10/15/20 years and determined a 4231 possession based, high press game is the best model” is generally a bit flawed. Don’t think Cruyff or Sacchi were looking at historic tactics to make their decisions about tactical set ups (unfair examples but historical data can’t be your only measure when the best in the business aren’t focusing on it).
Whether it was planned, by accident, or some crisis talk moment, happy with a return to pragmatism. After a decade of plan B is do plan A better, which even our Warbs was part of, glad the sport is waking up to the idea of adapting.
Personally the principles side of the game model is really welcome. But those principles should be above tactics (play young players, play with tempo, buy to develop etc) not defining a managers game plan. [Post edited 14 Oct 10:31]
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 10:37 - Oct 14 with 1274 views | Andybrat |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 16:47 - Oct 13 by Northernr |
Funny you should say this, we've another piece coming tomorrow... |
Clive
No podcast to ease the boredom ?
Andy [Post edited 14 Oct 10:39]
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| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 10:43 - Oct 14 with 1239 views | Northernr |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 10:37 - Oct 14 by Andybrat |
Clive
No podcast to ease the boredom ?
Andy [Post edited 14 Oct 10:39]
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It's being edited, will be up today or tomorrow. | | | |
| Possession, nine-tenths of the problem? – Analysis on 10:54 - Oct 14 with 1185 views | OldPedro |
Interesting and informative article - thanks Andrew |  |
| Extra mature cheddar......a simple cheese for a simple man |
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