| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:30 - May 1 with 2001 views | JamesB1979 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:18 - May 1 by Padulas_Shampoo |
Just to call out on this 'sustainability' thing... Looking at PBT posted by every single Championship club in their most recent accounts, every single one posted a loss if you take into account player sales.
Sheff Weds had the smallest annual loss of £10.1m.
We made a loss of £15.7m. If we wanted to break even with that cost of squad (which we already know is very low due to back loaded contracts for Cook and Colback and needing a fallow year to comply with FFP) we would need to increase revenue by 61%. There's only one non-parachute payment club in the division with revenue even close to that new number which is Bristol City... Who ended up shelling out £67.4m that year.
Even if we somehow found a way to increase that revenue to those amounts and we kept the same playing budget, our annual spend would be £25.6m less per annum than what Bristol City elect to spend on their squad.
If we set a budget to break even on current revenue levels it would leaves us with an annual budget of £25.9m, comfortably the smallest in the Championship. Even if you found a way to increase that revenue by 61% and then set a budget to break even, you'd still only have the 16th highest budget in the Championship.
Frankly - The Championship is not even remotely a sustainable league. There is no way you can compete sustainably. Other clubs make as much and much more than us and elect to push the P&S limit anyway. And I'm not talking 1 or 2 clubs, I'm talking 22 or 23. And the ones that don't immediately get relegated. [Post edited 1 May 9:20]
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We need to follow that model to even just meet the allowable loss each year. But we can’t assume we will always have owners that will pay for these losses. We’ve got aim to get the losses down. Maybe not to Nil as unrealistic but certainly to single digit millions I would say. If first team suffers then so be it. At least we still have our football club |  | |  |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:43 - May 1 with 1906 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:30 - May 1 by JamesB1979 |
We need to follow that model to even just meet the allowable loss each year. But we can’t assume we will always have owners that will pay for these losses. We’ve got aim to get the losses down. Maybe not to Nil as unrealistic but certainly to single digit millions I would say. If first team suffers then so be it. At least we still have our football club |
James the only Championship clubs that made a single figure loss in their last accounts all made well over £20m in transfer fees that year. One of them Watford who clearly fiddle that number by moving players between themselves and Udinese.
Expecting £20m profit from transfer fees and then not re-investing it every year is no strategy. When it doesn't happen (which for us is every single year for the last 15 with one single exception), you end up in the same peril as we are today anyway.
The only way to do it would be to increase that revenue but then you're asking QPR to make £10m MORE annual revenue than the likes of Middlesbrough, Sunderland, WBA. Again, they only club that's managed that is Bristol City but even they have been willing to lose £20m in a season themselves even off that higher turnover.
The entire division is doped financially by people willing to underwrite it. The entire division. What you're describing is a League One club or one from a bygone era. [Post edited 1 May 9:44]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:49 - May 1 with 1839 views | TheChef |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 16:59 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
We actually started to work ourselves into the position quite well.
We got good money for Smithies, then better money for Freeman, then amazing money for Eze.
We then made a couple of mistakes.
1 - We took a lot of the Eze money and used it for GET PROMOTED NOW short term signings like Austin, Gray, Johansen, De Wijs, McCallum, Odubajo etc. Of that intake really only Jimmy Dunne was the sort of profile that 'model' requires.
2 - We had developeed some sellable assets to get back on track and dig us out of that hole (Dickie, Dieng, Chair, Willock) but when they were at the peak of their form and value the following summer we then let the manager dictate that he'd only come if we promised none of them would be sold. That should have been a 'thanks but no thanks' however good his PowerPoint is, and at least one of those should have gone that summer. |
Re Willock, his injury then meant he wouldn't have got sold anyway. But that was probably the peak of his value. And now he's off to League One... |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:52 - May 1 with 1793 views | TheChef |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:05 - Apr 30 by Hunterhoop |
There is no way that whole thing has been penned by a professional journalist. Did Christian only do English to GCSE? |
To be fair I think most people do English to GCSE; unless they choose to do English A level  | |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:53 - May 1 with 1792 views | lassel |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:17 - May 1 by daveB |
He is a grown adult though so should hold his own opinion and understand when there is a huge disagreement the truth is usually in the middle, as owner of the club he should be looking to put the clubs interests first not pick a side
What they have done this week doesn't help anyone. They were in a pretty strong position in that if West Brom or any clubs wanted Marti they had to pay for him, that leverage is sort of gone now, clubs will back away from this mess and wait for us to just pay him off. By briefing fans and media outlets that he wasn't that good anyway and was a pain to work with again doesn't help us move him on whether you agree with how good he was or not
It was once again people putting their ego ahead of the best interests of this football club
I feel like we've gone back in time to the Paladini days again |
I mean Ruben does hold his own opinion and has stepped in as the adult in the room before when Nourry tried to sack Cifuentes and he was given an almighty slap and put back on his box.
Compensation was never going to happen because any interested club would immediately be told by his agent that the relationship was toxic and a parting was imminent.
At this point the club only really had two options:
1. Put up a statement saying we are mutually parting and we are paying a decently popular manager to leave
2. Go nuclear, besmirch Cifuentes publicly before mutually parting and paying a hopefully slightly less popular manager to leave
The situation was unsustainable and regardless of what Ruben might wish for, one side *had* to go now. Ultimately both sides *should* go, but that’s not something you can manage in a 6-8 weeks period. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:55 - May 1 with 1767 views | TheChef |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:40 - Apr 30 by 1JD |
This process and politics are such.
Ruben is taking his exclusive council from Hoos AND Nourry - who are both in cohorts and lockstep.
But Hoos hired Nourry and has a very unhealthy vested interest in the boy wonder proving himself (at ALL costs), otherwise quite simply Hoos (as he is more than aware) is also out of a job for such an absurd, outrageous, frankly negligent appointment and recommendation to the board.
In clives analogy of mummy and daddy breakup, Ruben is being presented with a completely one sided (and totally manipulated and dangerous) viewpoint. There is no kind of intermediary and no lawyer to balance proceedings from different sides (coach vs DOF/CEO/Chairman. And certainly no jury.
Hoos and Nourry are the lawyers, the jury, and the judge. All rolled into one.
Ruben if you are reading this messageboard, time to dig deep and trust NO one. |
I still don't quite understand how Hoos vacated the CEO role and stepped into the Chairman role (unless that was some deal that he brokered with Ruben)?
Kind of hoping there are some new (benevolent) owners in the offing who will put a new broom through the whole place. God knows it's needed. | |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:03 - May 1 with 1699 views | daveB |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:53 - May 1 by lassel |
I mean Ruben does hold his own opinion and has stepped in as the adult in the room before when Nourry tried to sack Cifuentes and he was given an almighty slap and put back on his box.
Compensation was never going to happen because any interested club would immediately be told by his agent that the relationship was toxic and a parting was imminent.
At this point the club only really had two options:
1. Put up a statement saying we are mutually parting and we are paying a decently popular manager to leave
2. Go nuclear, besmirch Cifuentes publicly before mutually parting and paying a hopefully slightly less popular manager to leave
The situation was unsustainable and regardless of what Ruben might wish for, one side *had* to go now. Ultimately both sides *should* go, but that’s not something you can manage in a 6-8 weeks period. |
Thats fine if one side has to go but the way they've done is just makes no sense, it didn't have to get this ugly
The option they have taken also sends out a message to any incoming manager that we'll be doing this to you as well if you don't do exactly as we say and thats likely to mean the people you want as manager are not going to touch it with a barge poll |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:05 - May 1 with 1678 views | lassel |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:03 - May 1 by daveB |
Thats fine if one side has to go but the way they've done is just makes no sense, it didn't have to get this ugly
The option they have taken also sends out a message to any incoming manager that we'll be doing this to you as well if you don't do exactly as we say and thats likely to mean the people you want as manager are not going to touch it with a barge poll |
100%. That’s ego driving decisions though and an insecure and inexperienced leader being led by a PR consultant paid to make him look best, not the club look best. | | | |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:09 - May 1 with 1649 views | KensalT |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 by JamesB1979 |
You are massively over-complicating this. There will be certain key decisions that will require shareholder approval. I would say changing manager is likely to be one of them. As majority shareholder I would imagine Reuben is able to flood the board. He doesn’t need a shareholders meeting to change the board. As majority shareholder he will be able to change the board if he doesn’t like their decisions. He has ultimate power. |
Company governance is complicated and with respect you are making a lot of guesses that are essentially wrong.
When Companies are formed they adopt a constitution called the Articles of Association. Amongst other things this sets out the power of directors.
In the UK this document has to be filed at Companies House.
Any changes to the constitution also have to be filed at CH.
If anyone is really interested then QPR's constitution was last amended in March 2022. That document and all other company filings can be found here:
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03197756/fili
The distribution of powers between shareholders and directors is explained here:
https://timespro.com/blog/distribution-of-power-between-shareholders-and-directo
The key point being:
"As a fiduciary on behalf of the corporation and its shareholders, the board establishes broad policies and takes critical decisions. Mergers and acquisitions, dividends and significant investments, as well as the hiring and firing of top executives and their remuneration, are all issues that fall under the jurisdiction of a board." [Post edited 1 May 10:10]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:23 - May 1 with 1529 views | rbee |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:05 - May 1 by lassel |
100%. That’s ego driving decisions though and an insecure and inexperienced leader being led by a PR consultant paid to make him look best, not the club look best. |
The PR consultant isn’t doing a great job!
I don’t think we looked a good proposition before the Marti fiasco but most managers don’t seem to care especially those on the managerial merry-go-round. |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:30 - May 1 with 1453 views | dm97 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:03 - May 1 by daveB |
Thats fine if one side has to go but the way they've done is just makes no sense, it didn't have to get this ugly
The option they have taken also sends out a message to any incoming manager that we'll be doing this to you as well if you don't do exactly as we say and thats likely to mean the people you want as manager are not going to touch it with a barge poll |
As much as we think it’s a mess and has been for years, it’s still a second tier club in London with a brand new training ground that is actually quite a nice place to work (the training facility I mean!). There will be plenty of people willing to deal with crap owners out of work. Whether they’re any good or not is a separate point, but we’re not gonna be wanting for applications [Post edited 1 May 10:30]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:37 - May 1 with 1375 views | lassel |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:23 - May 1 by rbee |
The PR consultant isn’t doing a great job!
I don’t think we looked a good proposition before the Marti fiasco but most managers don’t seem to care especially those on the managerial merry-go-round. |
They’re doing a decent job of insulating Nourry at the expense of Cifuentes, which is what they’re paid for. The club is just collateral damage of the egos involved. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:38 - May 1 with 1363 views | TheChef |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:23 - May 1 by rbee |
The PR consultant isn’t doing a great job!
I don’t think we looked a good proposition before the Marti fiasco but most managers don’t seem to care especially those on the managerial merry-go-round. |
There is an element of that - as long as the money is good, and a lot of managers' egos are such that "I'm definitely the one that can make the difference and bring success to this club". Even if the club in question is a basket case. And no other industry rewards failure as well as football. | |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:42 - May 1 with 1321 views | johncharles |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:30 - May 1 by dm97 |
As much as we think it’s a mess and has been for years, it’s still a second tier club in London with a brand new training ground that is actually quite a nice place to work (the training facility I mean!). There will be plenty of people willing to deal with crap owners out of work. Whether they’re any good or not is a separate point, but we’re not gonna be wanting for applications [Post edited 1 May 10:30]
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Wouldn’t be too sure there’ll be much of a queue. Even if you do a better job than Marti you still face the sack and there’s also the spurious allegations of applying for the WBA job when Albion say it never happened. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:48 - May 1 with 1293 views | JamesB1979 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:09 - May 1 by KensalT |
Company governance is complicated and with respect you are making a lot of guesses that are essentially wrong.
When Companies are formed they adopt a constitution called the Articles of Association. Amongst other things this sets out the power of directors.
In the UK this document has to be filed at Companies House.
Any changes to the constitution also have to be filed at CH.
If anyone is really interested then QPR's constitution was last amended in March 2022. That document and all other company filings can be found here:
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03197756/fili
The distribution of powers between shareholders and directors is explained here:
https://timespro.com/blog/distribution-of-power-between-shareholders-and-directo
The key point being:
"As a fiduciary on behalf of the corporation and its shareholders, the board establishes broad policies and takes critical decisions. Mergers and acquisitions, dividends and significant investments, as well as the hiring and firing of top executives and their remuneration, are all issues that fall under the jurisdiction of a board." [Post edited 1 May 10:10]
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Bit patronising. Yes, I know all that. Company governance isn’t complicated, but you are making it complicated for everyone on here. Are you a lawyer per chance?
Look at the voting of the board. That’s the key point. 60% of voting is via Reuben. So he has control through the Director or Directors he appoints. It’s not 1 vote per Director. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:50 - May 1 with 1278 views | lassel |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:42 - May 1 by johncharles |
Wouldn’t be too sure there’ll be much of a queue. Even if you do a better job than Marti you still face the sack and there’s also the spurious allegations of applying for the WBA job when Albion say it never happened. |
Getting into the English football managerial merry go round with its frequent sackings and recycling is a lucrative career option. There will be plenty of interest in the job. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:50 - May 1 with 1279 views | themodfather |
forgive me i cannot read 18 odd pages of replies and if said already i am sorry but, IF Marti has been talking to other clubs behind our backs, should the club SUE him? breach of contract etc sack him we get no compo. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:01 - May 1 with 1189 views | 1JD |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:17 - May 1 by daveB |
He is a grown adult though so should hold his own opinion and understand when there is a huge disagreement the truth is usually in the middle, as owner of the club he should be looking to put the clubs interests first not pick a side
What they have done this week doesn't help anyone. They were in a pretty strong position in that if West Brom or any clubs wanted Marti they had to pay for him, that leverage is sort of gone now, clubs will back away from this mess and wait for us to just pay him off. By briefing fans and media outlets that he wasn't that good anyway and was a pain to work with again doesn't help us move him on whether you agree with how good he was or not
It was once again people putting their ego ahead of the best interests of this football club
I feel like we've gone back in time to the Paladini days again |
Totally agree, and definitely not defending him. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:09 - May 1 with 1107 views | wombat |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:23 - May 1 by rbee |
The PR consultant isn’t doing a great job!
I don’t think we looked a good proposition before the Marti fiasco but most managers don’t seem to care especially those on the managerial merry-go-round. |
if nourry found the PR firm is likely to be run by a 19 years old who did a one week course in HR online while living in south america whie on Gap year |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:12 - May 1 with 1079 views | daveB |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:50 - May 1 by themodfather |
forgive me i cannot read 18 odd pages of replies and if said already i am sorry but, IF Marti has been talking to other clubs behind our backs, should the club SUE him? breach of contract etc sack him we get no compo. |
Depends if thats in his contract or not and imagine he could get round it saying his agent spoke to them he didn't. It would be a mad hill to die on for QPR considering we'll almost certainly be talking to the agents of managers and players contracted to other clubs at the moment as well. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:15 - May 1 with 1052 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:12 - May 1 by daveB |
Depends if thats in his contract or not and imagine he could get round it saying his agent spoke to them he didn't. It would be a mad hill to die on for QPR considering we'll almost certainly be talking to the agents of managers and players contracted to other clubs at the moment as well. |
And that's how we got him here in the first place. |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:18 - May 1 with 1024 views | KensalT |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:48 - May 1 by JamesB1979 |
Bit patronising. Yes, I know all that. Company governance isn’t complicated, but you are making it complicated for everyone on here. Are you a lawyer per chance?
Look at the voting of the board. That’s the key point. 60% of voting is via Reuben. So he has control through the Director or Directors he appoints. It’s not 1 vote per Director. |
"Look at the voting of the board. That’s the key point. 60% of voting is via Reuben. So he has control through the Director or Directors he appoints. It’s not 1 vote per Director."
Do you have access to the minutes of board meetings?
I don't. So I have no idea how the board has voted on any decision.
At directors meetings it is one vote per director. I already covered this on a previous post on page 17.
And if you still don't believe me but you're that bothered about it then Google is your friend. You can look it up for yourself. Unless you're really modern and prefer AI to do that for you.
But to give a simple example. Lee Hoos is a QPR director but to the best of my knowledge he is not a shareholder.
If Lee Hoos doesn't own any shares then by your logic Lee Hoos has zero power at board meetings.
I know Lee Hoos can be a good talker but I doubt QPR are keeping him around the place just to keep the other directors entertained.
In simple English:
- Shareholders generally have less power than people assume.
- Directors generally have more power than people assume. [Post edited 1 May 11:20]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:25 - May 1 with 974 views | dm97 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:50 - May 1 by lassel |
Getting into the English football managerial merry go round with its frequent sackings and recycling is a lucrative career option. There will be plenty of interest in the job. |
This. Getting sacked as a manager is quite literally part of the job and you get very well compensated for it. If every manager out there didn’t take a job out of worry they might get sacked managers wouldn’t be coming to a league where the average tenure is 9 months.
Just like players: it’s QPR, of course they’ll be able to hire someone | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:26 - May 1 with 964 views | JamesB1979 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:18 - May 1 by KensalT |
"Look at the voting of the board. That’s the key point. 60% of voting is via Reuben. So he has control through the Director or Directors he appoints. It’s not 1 vote per Director."
Do you have access to the minutes of board meetings?
I don't. So I have no idea how the board has voted on any decision.
At directors meetings it is one vote per director. I already covered this on a previous post on page 17.
And if you still don't believe me but you're that bothered about it then Google is your friend. You can look it up for yourself. Unless you're really modern and prefer AI to do that for you.
But to give a simple example. Lee Hoos is a QPR director but to the best of my knowledge he is not a shareholder.
If Lee Hoos doesn't own any shares then by your logic Lee Hoos has zero power at board meetings.
I know Lee Hoos can be a good talker but I doubt QPR are keeping him around the place just to keep the other directors entertained.
In simple English:
- Shareholders generally have less power than people assume.
- Directors generally have more power than people assume. [Post edited 1 May 11:20]
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Look at clause 7 of the articles. Voting number for the Director or Directors corresponds to the shareholding % for the Director appointed by that shareholder. That’s the key point.
Yes the Reuben appointed Director or Directors may just ignore him but they’d be removed immediately. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:39 - May 1 with 870 views | EastR |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:26 - May 1 by JamesB1979 |
Look at clause 7 of the articles. Voting number for the Director or Directors corresponds to the shareholding % for the Director appointed by that shareholder. That’s the key point.
Yes the Reuben appointed Director or Directors may just ignore him but they’d be removed immediately. |
I wouldn’t waste my breath, as my old dad used to say ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’
At some point the section in Corporate Governance for Dummies will be unearthed describing the concept of Persons with Significant Control - PSC (official designation) and Mug Supplying the Cash - MSC (voluntary position). The light bulb moment being if I hold either, or both, of those positions and I’m subbing £20m a year for the privilege then I’m calling the shots.
We can debate whether he’s surrounded by the right people or getting the best advice for his £, but that’s a different story. | |
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