| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:40 - Apr 30 with 2175 views | 1JD |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:40 - Apr 30 by johnhoop |
Unfortunately Reuben doesn’t seem to have a clue what’s going on. |
This process and politics are such.
Ruben is taking his exclusive council from Hoos AND Nourry - who are both in cohorts and lockstep.
But Hoos hired Nourry and has a very unhealthy vested interest in the boy wonder proving himself (at ALL costs), otherwise quite simply Hoos (as he is more than aware) is also out of a job for such an absurd, outrageous, frankly negligent appointment and recommendation to the board.
In clives analogy of mummy and daddy breakup, Ruben is being presented with a completely one sided (and totally manipulated and dangerous) viewpoint. There is no kind of intermediary and no lawyer to balance proceedings from different sides (coach vs DOF/CEO/Chairman. And certainly no jury.
Hoos and Nourry are the lawyers, the jury, and the judge. All rolled into one.
Ruben if you are reading this messageboard, time to dig deep and trust NO one. |  | |  |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:50 - Apr 30 with 2118 views | connell10 |
What is this style of play B S ??? If its playing out from the back we can't do it and always get beat when we do! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:55 - Apr 30 with 2102 views | 1JD |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:49 - Apr 30 by KensalT |
"The board is Ruben. The shareholders is Ruben."
From a company law point of view that's not correct.
Shareholders hold sway at General Meetings.
The default position for board meetings is decisions are made on a show of hands.
Technically the board can still outvote Ruben. So it's not just his decision.
(It's a slightly moot point because if the reports that Ruben does now hold 76% of the shares are true he can amend the constitution at a GM to give himself control at board meetings - something he couldn't do back in November when Marti was under pressure because reports at that time said he only owned 60% of the shares) [Post edited 30 Apr 13:44]
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Ruben is majority shareholder and owner at nearly 80%. Shareholder voting is proportional to ownership. He outvotes everyone. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:06 - May 1 with 2081 views | 100percent |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:58 - Apr 30 by dm97 |
Oh yeah don’t disagree with any of that - loads of elite players come through the EFL and end up at the top (just look at the trajectory of the England squad).
I think the point is more that without the Freeman sales as Clive’s described it, you’re waiting for a generational talent to come along who is good enough to do what Eze has done rather than milking the £3-5m market for your standard sales and the odd £8-10m over priced ones we used to see Villa/Derby/Forest grace the league with. Those markets have largely dried up, hence the model we’re now pursuing is out of date.
My view, for what little it’s worth, is to focus on the 18-22 DS market and hope we can get 3/4 Eze’s in 10 years rather than 1. Long shot but at this point do we really think our European data excursions are going to be much of a shorter shot? [Post edited 30 Apr 20:59]
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Agree with this - and we need to complete more of the Morgan type recruitment.
There are a whole raft of young players that are being released each season by the likes of Spurs, Arsenal, West ham, Brentford etc - all within the London catchment area.
With some decent training and closer attention they could work out to be valuable assets in the future, These don't necessarily need to be generational talent such as Eze, but he is a good example of a player that was released by Arsenal and then Millwall, before succeeding with us.
The Freeman's, Armstrong's and Dieng's type of transfers can generate good revenue if we keep them constant ...... |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:07 - May 1 with 2074 views | wombat |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:55 - Apr 30 by 1JD |
Ruben is majority shareholder and owner at nearly 80%. Shareholder voting is proportional to ownership. He outvotes everyone. |
If anyone has a half hour spare , do a google on nourry and his job history experience etc , it’s brilliant reading , lets say never has a less experienced man in football in history blags A job like this , we know the club loves a PowerPoint presentation but his must have been a woozer . |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:44 - May 1 with 1969 views | KensalT |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:55 - Apr 30 by 1JD |
Ruben is majority shareholder and owner at nearly 80%. Shareholder voting is proportional to ownership. He outvotes everyone. |
Shareholders can vote at General Meetings which typically happen once a year.
Ruben can pretty much do as he wants at a General Meeting if he holds over 75% of the shares.
But companies are not generally run on a day-to-day basis by General Meetings, they are run by directors (who may or may not be shareholders) at board meetings.
There's a variety of ways that boards can reach decisions but the default is majority voting:
https://www.diligent.com/en-gb/resources/blog/what-are-board-of-director-voting-
"Types of votes that boards make
Boards may need to vote on any number of important matters throughout their fiscal year. Board directors primarily vote on actions and resolutions. Boards may also cast votes for issues such as strategic planning matters, approving a business plan, approving a budget, approving committee chairs, approving executive compensation and other necessary matters.
The types of votes that boards make include:
Majority vote: More than half the members must vote in favor of a decision to pass. It’s a common type of voting used for routine decisions.
Plurality vote: Similar to a majority vote, except the winning option doesn’t need a minimum of 50%. It only applies when there are multiple voting options or candidates.
Unanimous consent: When all board members must agree on a motion for it to pass.
Supermajority votes: When a specified percentage of votes must be in favor of the motion to pass, such as 75%. It’s usually reserved for significant decisions.
Anonymous voting: When votes are kept secret to protect the privacy of individual voters. It’s often done online or on paper and is reserved for sensitive topics and issues.
Proxy votes: A board member grants power to another board member to vote on their behalf, usually if they’re unable to attend a vote.
Email voting: Board members vote by email outside of a formal meeting, with members being given a deadline to cast their vote. Email voting is often used when the decision isn’t significant but is time-sensitive.
Online voting: Online voting is undertaken on a platform that is secure and accurate, often in real-time during a meeting, either virtually or in person. Votes can be cast publicly or anonymously." [Post edited 1 May 0:47]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:47 - May 1 with 1957 views | eastside_r |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:07 - May 1 by wombat |
If anyone has a half hour spare , do a google on nourry and his job history experience etc , it’s brilliant reading , lets say never has a less experienced man in football in history blags A job like this , we know the club loves a PowerPoint presentation but his must have been a woozer . |
Was so tempted to send him a ‘Get out of my Club’ message on LinkedIn but thought better of it.  |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:52 - May 1 with 1930 views | kensalriser |
You're really labouring this but it's not really clear what point you're trying to make.
This isn't a large plc, it's a small private company in which the major shareholder is able to call as many of the shots as he likes. That's it. |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 01:07 - May 1 with 1907 views | KensalT |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:52 - May 1 by kensalriser |
You're really labouring this but it's not really clear what point you're trying to make.
This isn't a large plc, it's a small private company in which the major shareholder is able to call as many of the shots as he likes. That's it. |
The size of the company is irrelevant. They are all governed by the same legislation.
Shareholders typically vote once a year at a General Meeting. And it is the size of the shareholding that is important.
Each share has one vote. So a shareholder with over 50% of the shares has a lot of power at a GM and a shareholder with over 75% of the shares effectively has total control.
Shareholders vote on resolutions at GM's. There are two types of resolution which require either a straight majority or in some cases 75% approval.
The rest of the time decisions are made by directors at board meetings.
The number of the shares held by each board member is irrelevant. Each director's vote has the same weight.
Directors do not even have to be shareholders. They can have no shares in the company and their vote carries the same weight as the other directors.
Ruben is not a one-man band and can't just do as he pleases. As a general requirement board meetings have to have a minimum number of directors present (quorum) for their decisions to have any effect at all.
[Post edited 1 May 1:14]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 02:01 - May 1 with 1845 views | LazyFan |
Didn't De Wijs come on free and we sold him quickly for a £2m or something like that?
That was a money-making sale. I liked De Wijs he was a solid Champ Defender, but of course at QPR injury prone. So, for me that's good business. |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:06 - May 1 with 1575 views | ngbqpr |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 21:26 - Apr 30 by Dorse |
Honestly thought that was a parody at times. |
Could the Hounslow Herald be a parody / made up Nourry mouthpiece?
I think we should be told! |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 with 1574 views | JamesB1979 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 01:07 - May 1 by KensalT |
The size of the company is irrelevant. They are all governed by the same legislation.
Shareholders typically vote once a year at a General Meeting. And it is the size of the shareholding that is important.
Each share has one vote. So a shareholder with over 50% of the shares has a lot of power at a GM and a shareholder with over 75% of the shares effectively has total control.
Shareholders vote on resolutions at GM's. There are two types of resolution which require either a straight majority or in some cases 75% approval.
The rest of the time decisions are made by directors at board meetings.
The number of the shares held by each board member is irrelevant. Each director's vote has the same weight.
Directors do not even have to be shareholders. They can have no shares in the company and their vote carries the same weight as the other directors.
Ruben is not a one-man band and can't just do as he pleases. As a general requirement board meetings have to have a minimum number of directors present (quorum) for their decisions to have any effect at all.
[Post edited 1 May 1:14]
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You are massively over-complicating this. There will be certain key decisions that will require shareholder approval. I would say changing manager is likely to be one of them. As majority shareholder I would imagine Reuben is able to flood the board. He doesn’t need a shareholders meeting to change the board. As majority shareholder he will be able to change the board if he doesn’t like their decisions. He has ultimate power. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 with 1574 views | PunteR |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:06 - May 1 by 100percent |
Agree with this - and we need to complete more of the Morgan type recruitment.
There are a whole raft of young players that are being released each season by the likes of Spurs, Arsenal, West ham, Brentford etc - all within the London catchment area.
With some decent training and closer attention they could work out to be valuable assets in the future, These don't necessarily need to be generational talent such as Eze, but he is a good example of a player that was released by Arsenal and then Millwall, before succeeding with us.
The Freeman's, Armstrong's and Dieng's type of transfers can generate good revenue if we keep them constant ...... |
I was always skeptical of this approach. In principle it's a good idea, but the club needed to become a solid championship club with a clear identity of what it is.
To rely of youth players or rough diamonds in this league is nuts. Warburton called it out. The young players were being fast tracked to the first team to justify Ferdinand and Ramseys remit. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:42 - May 1 with 1443 views | JamesB1979 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 by PunteR |
I was always skeptical of this approach. In principle it's a good idea, but the club needed to become a solid championship club with a clear identity of what it is.
To rely of youth players or rough diamonds in this league is nuts. Warburton called it out. The young players were being fast tracked to the first team to justify Ferdinand and Ramseys remit. |
But it’s the right one for making us sustainable. We can’t continue as we have been losing so much every year. It does mean not only picking right young players, but coaching them well and selling at the right time. Not sure we’ve done the last one very well! This does lead to fluctuating first team performances as good players come and go, and you’re unlikely to replace them to same level straight away. But of course if we had a good run into the playoffs and into the Prem, then changes everything….and we can start signing likes Samba again! | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:46 - May 1 with 1418 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 02:01 - May 1 by LazyFan |
Didn't De Wijs come on free and we sold him quickly for a £2m or something like that?
That was a money-making sale. I liked De Wijs he was a solid Champ Defender, but of course at QPR injury prone. So, for me that's good business. |
You're right, £2m for De Wijs would have been good business. |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:50 - May 1 with 1393 views | GaryHaddock |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 by PunteR |
I was always skeptical of this approach. In principle it's a good idea, but the club needed to become a solid championship club with a clear identity of what it is.
To rely of youth players or rough diamonds in this league is nuts. Warburton called it out. The young players were being fast tracked to the first team to justify Ferdinand and Ramseys remit. |
Warburton had other reasons not to play youngsters though. |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 08:22 - May 1 with 1233 views | PunteR |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:50 - May 1 by GaryHaddock |
Warburton had other reasons not to play youngsters though. |
What reasons? I did hear rumors about agents. | |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 08:25 - May 1 with 1210 views | PunteR |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:42 - May 1 by JamesB1979 |
But it’s the right one for making us sustainable. We can’t continue as we have been losing so much every year. It does mean not only picking right young players, but coaching them well and selling at the right time. Not sure we’ve done the last one very well! This does lead to fluctuating first team performances as good players come and go, and you’re unlikely to replace them to same level straight away. But of course if we had a good run into the playoffs and into the Prem, then changes everything….and we can start signing likes Samba again! |
Like I say, it's a good idea in principle but it's not workable if other things are not in place.
The new training ground is a step in the right direction. [Post edited 1 May 8:26]
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| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 08:39 - May 1 with 1133 views | dm97 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 by PunteR |
I was always skeptical of this approach. In principle it's a good idea, but the club needed to become a solid championship club with a clear identity of what it is.
To rely of youth players or rough diamonds in this league is nuts. Warburton called it out. The young players were being fast tracked to the first team to justify Ferdinand and Ramseys remit. |
Agree under that era the youth was crap. But that’s an issue of quality / application rather than it being the wrong strategy.
Look at BC: Scott, Semenyo, Conway, Bell - sold 3 of them for good money and the other has become a solid championship player. Getting 19-23 year olds that are good enough to get a move up a league is a better strategy than trying to sell Chair/Dickie/Dieng types within the league - given the financial situation of 90% of clubs (in my opinion). |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 08:40 - May 1 with 1129 views | dm97 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:07 - May 1 by PunteR |
I was always skeptical of this approach. In principle it's a good idea, but the club needed to become a solid championship club with a clear identity of what it is.
To rely of youth players or rough diamonds in this league is nuts. Warburton called it out. The young players were being fast tracked to the first team to justify Ferdinand and Ramseys remit. |
(Dupe, internet!) [Post edited 1 May 8:40]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 08:48 - May 1 with 1064 views | switchingcode |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:56 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
No absolutely not, but Eze is a generational talent. A couple of them at that point were definitely Freeman-level sales. And that's how Brentford started and built up. It wasn't all Watkins and Benrahma, they got £5m for Ryan Woods, £5m for Jota, £3m for Collin, £5m for Odubajo, £4m for Tarkowski. |
It’s not rocket science or luck as some have suggested it’s having a plan and sticking with it and be prepared to lose some on the way.Rosler Warburton and Smith for example.For the fans there is no fun in seeing your best players sold and being replaced by unknowns from lower leagues in Uk or Europe.losing in the playoff final and then selling Watkins and Benrahma didn’t go down well with fans either (all fans have high expectations Mr Bircham) | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 08:51 - May 1 with 1046 views | SW_Ranger |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:58 - Apr 30 by dm97 |
Oh yeah don’t disagree with any of that - loads of elite players come through the EFL and end up at the top (just look at the trajectory of the England squad).
I think the point is more that without the Freeman sales as Clive’s described it, you’re waiting for a generational talent to come along who is good enough to do what Eze has done rather than milking the £3-5m market for your standard sales and the odd £8-10m over priced ones we used to see Villa/Derby/Forest grace the league with. Those markets have largely dried up, hence the model we’re now pursuing is out of date.
My view, for what little it’s worth, is to focus on the 18-22 DS market and hope we can get 3/4 Eze’s in 10 years rather than 1. Long shot but at this point do we really think our European data excursions are going to be much of a shorter shot? [Post edited 30 Apr 20:59]
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True DM but it’s the 80/20 rule all over … majority of £2m, £3m, or £4m sales, then along comes the big one. They can’t all be hail-mary’s, life never works that way.
It will, as many have said before, take years to get into that line of good young players. I think youngsters will see players like Yamal and want to play, even if it is in the Championship, develop their craft and matchday skills and be ready to do the same in the promotion end of the EFL or PL as evolution.
I’m a firm believer in the 10,000 hours (or notionally termed in olden days as 5-year learning called ‘apprenticeships’); if you’re not showing your expected skills by your very early 20’s I question if you will make it at the level you are at (yes, there are always exceptions but we’re back to the 80/20 rule all over again).
There will be interesting comparisons next season between Kelman (23) and Kolli (20) to see who is performing at the higher level next season. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 08:57 - May 1 with 993 views | SW_Ranger |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 00:44 - May 1 by KensalT |
Shareholders can vote at General Meetings which typically happen once a year.
Ruben can pretty much do as he wants at a General Meeting if he holds over 75% of the shares.
But companies are not generally run on a day-to-day basis by General Meetings, they are run by directors (who may or may not be shareholders) at board meetings.
There's a variety of ways that boards can reach decisions but the default is majority voting:
https://www.diligent.com/en-gb/resources/blog/what-are-board-of-director-voting-
"Types of votes that boards make
Boards may need to vote on any number of important matters throughout their fiscal year. Board directors primarily vote on actions and resolutions. Boards may also cast votes for issues such as strategic planning matters, approving a business plan, approving a budget, approving committee chairs, approving executive compensation and other necessary matters.
The types of votes that boards make include:
Majority vote: More than half the members must vote in favor of a decision to pass. It’s a common type of voting used for routine decisions.
Plurality vote: Similar to a majority vote, except the winning option doesn’t need a minimum of 50%. It only applies when there are multiple voting options or candidates.
Unanimous consent: When all board members must agree on a motion for it to pass.
Supermajority votes: When a specified percentage of votes must be in favor of the motion to pass, such as 75%. It’s usually reserved for significant decisions.
Anonymous voting: When votes are kept secret to protect the privacy of individual voters. It’s often done online or on paper and is reserved for sensitive topics and issues.
Proxy votes: A board member grants power to another board member to vote on their behalf, usually if they’re unable to attend a vote.
Email voting: Board members vote by email outside of a formal meeting, with members being given a deadline to cast their vote. Email voting is often used when the decision isn’t significant but is time-sensitive.
Online voting: Online voting is undertaken on a platform that is secure and accurate, often in real-time during a meeting, either virtually or in person. Votes can be cast publicly or anonymously." [Post edited 1 May 0:47]
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Does this factor in egos? | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:17 - May 1 with 865 views | daveB |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:40 - Apr 30 by 1JD |
This process and politics are such.
Ruben is taking his exclusive council from Hoos AND Nourry - who are both in cohorts and lockstep.
But Hoos hired Nourry and has a very unhealthy vested interest in the boy wonder proving himself (at ALL costs), otherwise quite simply Hoos (as he is more than aware) is also out of a job for such an absurd, outrageous, frankly negligent appointment and recommendation to the board.
In clives analogy of mummy and daddy breakup, Ruben is being presented with a completely one sided (and totally manipulated and dangerous) viewpoint. There is no kind of intermediary and no lawyer to balance proceedings from different sides (coach vs DOF/CEO/Chairman. And certainly no jury.
Hoos and Nourry are the lawyers, the jury, and the judge. All rolled into one.
Ruben if you are reading this messageboard, time to dig deep and trust NO one. |
He is a grown adult though so should hold his own opinion and understand when there is a huge disagreement the truth is usually in the middle, as owner of the club he should be looking to put the clubs interests first not pick a side
What they have done this week doesn't help anyone. They were in a pretty strong position in that if West Brom or any clubs wanted Marti they had to pay for him, that leverage is sort of gone now, clubs will back away from this mess and wait for us to just pay him off. By briefing fans and media outlets that he wasn't that good anyway and was a pain to work with again doesn't help us move him on whether you agree with how good he was or not
It was once again people putting their ego ahead of the best interests of this football club
I feel like we've gone back in time to the Paladini days again |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 09:18 - May 1 with 853 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 07:42 - May 1 by JamesB1979 |
But it’s the right one for making us sustainable. We can’t continue as we have been losing so much every year. It does mean not only picking right young players, but coaching them well and selling at the right time. Not sure we’ve done the last one very well! This does lead to fluctuating first team performances as good players come and go, and you’re unlikely to replace them to same level straight away. But of course if we had a good run into the playoffs and into the Prem, then changes everything….and we can start signing likes Samba again! |
Just to call out on this 'sustainability' thing... Looking at PBT posted by every single Championship club in their most recent accounts, every single one posted a loss if you take into account player sales.
Sheff Weds had the smallest annual loss of £10.1m.
We made a loss of £15.7m. If we wanted to break even with that cost of squad (which we already know is very low due to back loaded contracts for Cook and Colback and needing a fallow year to comply with FFP) we would need to increase revenue by 61%. There's only one non-parachute payment club in the division with revenue even close to that new number which is Bristol City... Who ended up shelling out £67.4m that year.
Even if we somehow found a way to increase that revenue to those amounts and we kept the same playing budget, our annual spend would be £25.6m less per annum than what Bristol City elect to spend on their squad.
If we set a budget to break even on current revenue levels it would leaves us with an annual budget of £25.9m, comfortably the smallest in the Championship. Even if you found a way to increase that revenue by 61% and then set a budget to break even, you'd still only have the 16th highest budget in the Championship.
Frankly - The Championship is not even remotely a sustainable league. There is no way you can compete sustainably. Other clubs make as much and much more than us and elect to push the P&S limit anyway. And I'm not talking 1 or 2 clubs, I'm talking 22 or 23. And the ones that don't immediately get relegated. [Post edited 1 May 9:20]
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