| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 17:22 - Apr 30 with 3178 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 17:17 - Apr 30 by KensalT |
I think we also had Charlie Austin making similar demands about Chair and Willock not being sold as a condition for him coming here!
Essentially I think we're in agreement:
1. The club has tried to rush what is inherently a slow process
2. We haven't been able to bring ourselves to do the selling bit when we should have.
I think it can still be done but it has got harder.
If you look at Bristol City and Millwall they had some quite austere years under Gary Rowett and Nigel Pearson respectively. But all the while they were ticking over in the league they were still developing young players and have had success cashing in on them and reinvesting. So it can still be done, and for a club in our position it might be the best option, but it's going to be bloody hard work! |
Totally. |  | |  |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:05 - Apr 30 with 2964 views | dm97 |
Yeah those are fair points. I think my argument is more that to do what Brentford did you need to be able to sell Andre Gray and Scott Hogan to the wealthy championship teams, as well as an Eze and Esseh, a Webster to a prem team. If you’re just waiting for the Eze to come along it might be 10 years so the Hogans of the world keep your development linear, not a roller coaster.
The issue is the clubs that can afford to buy a Hogan now have no interest in buying them (maybe with the exception of Sheff U this season, Cannon/Campbell good analogues examples here, Boro too arguably - but the list is small).
Burnley have a back 5 worth well over 40/50m - why on earth would they want JCS? Premier league yo-yo clubs are now full of really good championship players and they’re also the only ones who can afford our best championship players that aren’t generational talents. Look at how many players are leaving for free this summer, it’s a really clear and damaging trend for clubs like us.
The sum effect of this is what we’re seeing happen in the top end of champs and bottom end of Prem; 6/7 teams too good for this league and, unless they’re willing to go and Notts Forest the thing, not good enough for above. That’s killed our market stall and the strategy. We need more Morgans/Kollis/Suttons who might be Ezes than we need JCS’/Field’s/Dunne’s who won’t be bought for cash anymore. |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:10 - Apr 30 with 2877 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 16:59 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
We actually started to work ourselves into the position quite well.
We got good money for Smithies, then better money for Freeman, then amazing money for Eze.
We then made a couple of mistakes.
1 - We took a lot of the Eze money and used it for GET PROMOTED NOW short term signings like Austin, Gray, Johansen, De Wijs, McCallum, Odubajo etc. Of that intake really only Jimmy Dunne was the sort of profile that 'model' requires.
2 - We had developeed some sellable assets to get back on track and dig us out of that hole (Dickie, Dieng, Chair, Willock) but when they were at the peak of their form and value the following summer we then let the manager dictate that he'd only come if we promised none of them would be sold. That should have been a 'thanks but no thanks' however good his PowerPoint is, and at least one of those should have gone that summer. |
Looking at it with hindsight, were any of those players a new Eze though? Chair at his peak maybe a squad player for a lower table Premier League club. Dickie not quick enough for the top level. Dieng, decent enough but no Lev Yashin. And Willock, erm...
Now Ronnie Edwards, how much could we get for him....? |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:15 - Apr 30 with 2860 views | numptydumpty |
Crikey this sadly reeks of airing your dirty linen in public
Obviously Cifuentes will seek out alternative options if he is not getting assurances of resources at his disposal for ourselves and football is a business like no other.
He was the fifth longest serving manager in the championship.
Many of us on here, go back to the 70s and 80s where wages were not on another planet, and you didn't get situations where the bloke that hardly ever plays is on four times the amount that the current star performer is on, which creates its own set of problems, in any workplace clearly.
I think as a club we have reacted way too quickly to place Marti on gardening leave and now with him not appointed elsewhere, the whole situation is unsavoury and ill advised all round
Hardly projects the club in a good light to any future prospective manager.
What a God awful mess.
Well done Rangers
Great work...... NOT !!!!! |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:44 - Apr 30 with 2717 views | JamesB1979 |
I’m surprised Xavi is going to be in the dugout on Saturday. Is that normal? Not that we do things normal. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave (n/t) on 18:46 - Apr 30 with 2700 views | Konk |
[Post edited 30 Apr 18:49]
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| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:47 - Apr 30 with 2686 views | flynnbo |
Just chatted with Darnell in the club shop. |  | | |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:48 - Apr 30 with 2665 views | Konk |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 12:33 - Apr 30 by DannyPaddox |
The gardening leave angle again leads me to only one conclusion - it’s the curse of the Blue Peter garden |
I remember being about 16 years old, and waiting to cross the Fulham Palace Road, when an old woman pulled at my sleeve. I turned to look at her, she must have been at least 80, she had long white hair, a witches hat, and a Blue Peter badge drawn on her cape. I will never forget what she said as we waited for the lights to change:
"When Wise and Ferdinand wrecked the garden,
QPR's prospects they did harden
They desecrated the holy land of Blue Peter
Now they are cursed to always teeter
Between 15th and 16th in the Championship"
We laughed it off at the time, but now... I dunno. Maybe there was something in it after all? | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:08 - Apr 30 with 2528 views | Rsole |
Feels like CIF on Cif…. |  |
| Those possessed by devils, try and keep them under control a bit, can't you ?
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:20 - Apr 30 with 2476 views | Northernr |
There’s some lines in that which are genuinely hilarious. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:55 - Apr 30 with 2370 views | aston_hoop |
What annoyed me about this was the journo on Twitter referring to it as a 'long read'
It is not. |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:56 - Apr 30 with 2360 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:10 - Apr 30 by Wegerles_Stairs |
Looking at it with hindsight, were any of those players a new Eze though? Chair at his peak maybe a squad player for a lower table Premier League club. Dickie not quick enough for the top level. Dieng, decent enough but no Lev Yashin. And Willock, erm...
Now Ronnie Edwards, how much could we get for him....? |
No absolutely not, but Eze is a generational talent. A couple of them at that point were definitely Freeman-level sales. And that's how Brentford started and built up. It wasn't all Watkins and Benrahma, they got £5m for Ryan Woods, £5m for Jota, £3m for Collin, £5m for Odubajo, £4m for Tarkowski. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:28 - Apr 30 with 2204 views | KensalT |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:05 - Apr 30 by dm97 |
Yeah those are fair points. I think my argument is more that to do what Brentford did you need to be able to sell Andre Gray and Scott Hogan to the wealthy championship teams, as well as an Eze and Esseh, a Webster to a prem team. If you’re just waiting for the Eze to come along it might be 10 years so the Hogans of the world keep your development linear, not a roller coaster.
The issue is the clubs that can afford to buy a Hogan now have no interest in buying them (maybe with the exception of Sheff U this season, Cannon/Campbell good analogues examples here, Boro too arguably - but the list is small).
Burnley have a back 5 worth well over 40/50m - why on earth would they want JCS? Premier league yo-yo clubs are now full of really good championship players and they’re also the only ones who can afford our best championship players that aren’t generational talents. Look at how many players are leaving for free this summer, it’s a really clear and damaging trend for clubs like us.
The sum effect of this is what we’re seeing happen in the top end of champs and bottom end of Prem; 6/7 teams too good for this league and, unless they’re willing to go and Notts Forest the thing, not good enough for above. That’s killed our market stall and the strategy. We need more Morgans/Kollis/Suttons who might be Ezes than we need JCS’/Field’s/Dunne’s who won’t be bought for cash anymore. |
I think there's a lot of truth in what you say.
But at the same time some really good players have emerged in the EFL in recent years such as the Bellingham brothers, Alex Scott, Antoine Semenyo, Romain Esse, Chris Rigg, Archie Gray, Adam Wharton, Michael Olise, etc.
These aren't players who have had a loan spell down here, these are players who have emerged through EFL clubs.
I'm not sure why it's happening now. Maybe EFL clubs are putting more resources into developing young talent. And maybe youngsters are waking up to the fact that being hoovered up by the big clubs and disappearing into their academies for several years and never playing any proper competitive football isn't the best way to develop their careers and realise their potential.
Whatever the reasons there are still signs of life at our level and there still scope to develop talented players and grow good squads. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:43 - Apr 30 with 2127 views | kensalriser |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:20 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
There’s some lines in that which are genuinely hilarious. |
It just needs 'big hairy scrotums' to finish. |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:57 - Apr 30 with 2073 views | R_from_afar |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 18:44 - Apr 30 by JamesB1979 |
I’m surprised Xavi is going to be in the dugout on Saturday. Is that normal? Not that we do things normal. |
He hasn't always coached alongside Cifuentes. For example, he was at Birmingham City without him, as part of Pep Clotet's coaching staff. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:58 - Apr 30 with 2067 views | dm97 |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:28 - Apr 30 by KensalT |
I think there's a lot of truth in what you say.
But at the same time some really good players have emerged in the EFL in recent years such as the Bellingham brothers, Alex Scott, Antoine Semenyo, Romain Esse, Chris Rigg, Archie Gray, Adam Wharton, Michael Olise, etc.
These aren't players who have had a loan spell down here, these are players who have emerged through EFL clubs.
I'm not sure why it's happening now. Maybe EFL clubs are putting more resources into developing young talent. And maybe youngsters are waking up to the fact that being hoovered up by the big clubs and disappearing into their academies for several years and never playing any proper competitive football isn't the best way to develop their careers and realise their potential.
Whatever the reasons there are still signs of life at our level and there still scope to develop talented players and grow good squads. |
Oh yeah don’t disagree with any of that - loads of elite players come through the EFL and end up at the top (just look at the trajectory of the England squad).
I think the point is more that without the Freeman sales as Clive’s described it, you’re waiting for a generational talent to come along who is good enough to do what Eze has done rather than milking the £3-5m market for your standard sales and the odd £8-10m over priced ones we used to see Villa/Derby/Forest grace the league with. Those markets have largely dried up, hence the model we’re now pursuing is out of date.
My view, for what little it’s worth, is to focus on the 18-22 DS market and hope we can get 3/4 Eze’s in 10 years rather than 1. Long shot but at this point do we really think our European data excursions are going to be much of a shorter shot? [Post edited 30 Apr 20:59]
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 21:24 - Apr 30 with 1928 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:55 - Apr 30 by aston_hoop |
What annoyed me about this was the journo on Twitter referring to it as a 'long read'
It is not. |
You want a long read? I'll show you a long read  | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 21:26 - Apr 30 with 1910 views | Dorse |
Honestly thought that was a parody at times. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 21:39 - Apr 30 with 1812 views | KensalT |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 20:58 - Apr 30 by dm97 |
Oh yeah don’t disagree with any of that - loads of elite players come through the EFL and end up at the top (just look at the trajectory of the England squad).
I think the point is more that without the Freeman sales as Clive’s described it, you’re waiting for a generational talent to come along who is good enough to do what Eze has done rather than milking the £3-5m market for your standard sales and the odd £8-10m over priced ones we used to see Villa/Derby/Forest grace the league with. Those markets have largely dried up, hence the model we’re now pursuing is out of date.
My view, for what little it’s worth, is to focus on the 18-22 DS market and hope we can get 3/4 Eze’s in 10 years rather than 1. Long shot but at this point do we really think our European data excursions are going to be much of a shorter shot? [Post edited 30 Apr 20:59]
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Take your point about the Freeman-type sales. But I think that just makes things harder rather than impossible.
And Jobe Bellingham moved from Birmingham to Sunderland, so that market isn't completely dead (and he's now being talked about as a target for Real Madrid https://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/football/sunderland-afc/major-publication-c )
And we sold Sinclair Armstrong to Bristol City. OK that wasn't in the £4-8m bracket but Sincs is a young player who might improve and if we're really lucky we might see some sell-on value coming back to us which was never likely to happen with Freeman and Smithies.
Again I take your point about the DS market, and that does seem to be the direction the club is moving in.
David McIntyre made a good point about the European signings. The transfer fees can be high but they tend to be on lower wages so there is some scope for getting value from those deals. | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 22:04 - Apr 30 with 1657 views | numptydumpty |
This article to me has Nourry adapted AI production, all over it. What a load of pants.
Talk about bending the truth
I thought we had to give Nourry the benefits of hindsight but over the last few days this whole situation totally stinks of something nasty.
It's seriously irritating !!! In polite terms....
So as said great the new year ten year plan is in place. Personnel are irrelevant and interchangeable
One thing I will say - at the end of this magnificent ten year plan, a certain Mr Nourry will be long forgotten.
Done an about turn myself on this mess also
It's all rather unedifying...
A lack of class.on show !!! | |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 22:46 - Apr 30 with 1467 views | Hunterhoop |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 11:49 - Apr 30 by KensalT |
"The board is Ruben. The shareholders is Ruben."
From a company law point of view that's not correct.
Shareholders hold sway at General Meetings.
The default position for board meetings is decisions are made on a show of hands.
Technically the board can still outvote Ruben. So it's not just his decision.
(It's a slightly moot point because if the reports that Ruben does now hold 76% of the shares are true he can amend the constitution at a GM to give himself control at board meetings - something he couldn't do back in November when Marti was under pressure because reports at that time said he only owned 60% of the shares) [Post edited 30 Apr 13:44]
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This is an important post. |  | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:05 - Apr 30 with 1354 views | Hunterhoop |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 19:20 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
There’s some lines in that which are genuinely hilarious. |
There is no way that whole thing has been penned by a professional journalist. Did Christian only do English to GCSE? | | | |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:24 - Apr 30 with 1245 views | FredManRave |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 10:48 - Apr 30 by daveB |
Brian's going to be running the club by Friday |
I'd take a Brian and DaveB being the new Dream Team, a la, Curbishley and Gritt with Clive being the new CEO, although somewhat old for the position.
Success guaranteed.
Or CTN. |  |
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| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:37 - Apr 30 with 1194 views | davman |
| Cifuentes on gardening leave on 23:05 - Apr 30 by Hunterhoop |
There is no way that whole thing has been penned by a professional journalist. Did Christian only do English to GCSE? |
He's had a 25 year carer in Journalism and Creative writing don't you know... |  |
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