| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise 07:54 - May 29 with 9488 views | AnotherJohn |
The resident doctors - the new term for doctors in the training grades - got a pay uplift of about 22% last year and are now demanding a further 29% rise this year.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/junior-doctors-seeking-almost-30-073732927.html
The forum was divided in its views last year. Some of us worried that such a generous pay deal would trigger a round of catch-up pay demands in the public sector, but I don't think anybody thought the doctors would come back for so much more so quickly. As a reminder, the present scale for the training grades in England runs from £36,616 to £70,425. Salaries for consultants, specialty and specialist doctors (SAS) and GPs go much higher. Thoughts? |  | | |  |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:08 - May 29 with 1070 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:12 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
It takes effort to be a Doctor, but as long as you're not a complete idiot it's far from impossible. It's mostly learning and maintaining the knowledge. GP's will probably be replaced with AI in the not too distant future. Just tap your symptoms into ChatGPT and see what it comes up with. Surgery I suspect is harder because it takes a lot of bottle to open someone up with a scalpel.
Completely agree with you on not making them pay their training costs, as long as they don't turn around and demand a nigh on 30% payrise in return. |
I'd disagree.
With effort you can learn the law and be a lawyer ( who get paid more). You can't learn the intricacies of human biology through effort, it's a combination of knowledge, problem solving, research, practical skills, interpersonal skills etc, etc.
If a Doctor of any description can be replaced by AI literally anyone can. Worrying times.
They're not demanding a 30% pay rise they're asking to be reinstated for pay rises they haven't had since 2008. It's unrealistic unfortunately but not undeserved.
The bottom line is austerity over the last 15 years has absolutely destroyed this country, to the point that people think Dr's deserve to earn less than plumbers. It's bonkers to be honest. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:11 - May 29 with 1065 views | max936 |
"I could mention the triple lock, but it won't go down well."
You just have  |  |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:15 - May 29 with 1037 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:08 - May 29 by Scotia |
I'd disagree.
With effort you can learn the law and be a lawyer ( who get paid more). You can't learn the intricacies of human biology through effort, it's a combination of knowledge, problem solving, research, practical skills, interpersonal skills etc, etc.
If a Doctor of any description can be replaced by AI literally anyone can. Worrying times.
They're not demanding a 30% pay rise they're asking to be reinstated for pay rises they haven't had since 2008. It's unrealistic unfortunately but not undeserved.
The bottom line is austerity over the last 15 years has absolutely destroyed this country, to the point that people think Dr's deserve to earn less than plumbers. It's bonkers to be honest. |
I don't know anyone that thinks doctors should earn less than plumbers, not sure what circle's you move in that people think that.
A computer can beat a chess grandmaster these days, people did not think that would be possible back in the day. |  |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:16 - May 29 with 1035 views | max936 |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:43 - May 29 by Scotia |
I think that's absolutely fair.
A newly qualified tradesman could easily clear more than a resident Dr with no debt from training and very little work pressure.
When you consider some of those resident Dr's will go on to undertake organ transplants, open heart or brain surgery I think £500k is perfectly acceptable for them to earn. |
"very little work pressure." you have no idea, none at all.
I'd love your job, I've no time to spend on here through the day on any working week, but you seem to manage it, what was that you mentioned about work ethic. [Post edited 29 May 23:17]
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:21 - May 29 with 1014 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:58 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
No, I think I'm about right.
You don't need to be a genius to be a Doctor. Smart for sure. Able to retain information? Absolutely. But those skills are far from rare. There are tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people out there with the basic intellectual capacity to train in medicine. It's just that some go in other ways.
There are accountants, engineers, architects etc who all had the brain power to become GP's but went in other directions. That's not to disparage the medical profession, but at the end of the day that's what it is. A profession like any other. |
Nothing wrong with the argument but the example of an accountant is poor, accountants I know are not very clever in fact the accountants I know can't even count, it's all entering info into computers who do the counting but because they aren't good at mental arithmetic then if they enter in the wrong data they get incorrect figures and don't realise because they can't count in the first place. | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:22 - May 29 with 1013 views | Dr_Winston |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:08 - May 29 by Scotia |
I'd disagree.
With effort you can learn the law and be a lawyer ( who get paid more). You can't learn the intricacies of human biology through effort, it's a combination of knowledge, problem solving, research, practical skills, interpersonal skills etc, etc.
If a Doctor of any description can be replaced by AI literally anyone can. Worrying times.
They're not demanding a 30% pay rise they're asking to be reinstated for pay rises they haven't had since 2008. It's unrealistic unfortunately but not undeserved.
The bottom line is austerity over the last 15 years has absolutely destroyed this country, to the point that people think Dr's deserve to earn less than plumbers. It's bonkers to be honest. |
Ultimately, what do you do at a GP visit? You give them a list of symptoms, and they give you a diagnosis. That's basically Google. Maybe there will be a couple of Nurses on hand to do the odd examination/test, but in a few years there will be very little need for GP's to exist.
I would daresay that eventually AI would do a better job, because it won't be intimidated by an aggressive junkie skiver demanding a sick note for "anxiety and depression", nor will it be bored by mid afternoon and willing to diagnose whatever is necessary to get the individual out of its office.
And yes, many, many jobs can be completely replaced by AI. I probably could in my job. [Post edited 29 May 23:36]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:40 - May 29 with 968 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:45 - May 29 by Scotia |
The same goes for those too. I don't know if they deserve their salary, but should have a sensible pay award each year.
I've actually just re-read the first post, it mentions triggering "catch up" public sector pay awards. That's the problem, catch up pay awards are needed but they shouldn't be. No public servant wants more than a fair increase each year.
Of course there are one group of public servants who haven't waited at all but got a raise each year. MP's themselves. [Post edited 29 May 20:37]
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It's because of the 2008 banking crisis, nearly all jobs in the UK after inflation are earning less than they were back then, junior doctors are no different to most other jobs when comparing spending power now to spending power then, yet if you listen to them you would think its only their wages lagging behind 2008 when the reality is most other peoples wages are lagging behind 2008 also, unless you are a footballer, plumber or train driver I would guess. [Post edited 29 May 23:55]
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 06:25 - May 30 with 917 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:15 - May 29 by trampie |
I don't know anyone that thinks doctors should earn less than plumbers, not sure what circle's you move in that people think that.
A computer can beat a chess grandmaster these days, people did not think that would be possible back in the day. |
You seem to think they should. | | | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 06:27 - May 30 with 916 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:40 - May 29 by trampie |
It's because of the 2008 banking crisis, nearly all jobs in the UK after inflation are earning less than they were back then, junior doctors are no different to most other jobs when comparing spending power now to spending power then, yet if you listen to them you would think its only their wages lagging behind 2008 when the reality is most other peoples wages are lagging behind 2008 also, unless you are a footballer, plumber or train driver I would guess. [Post edited 29 May 23:55]
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Resident Dr's have had one pay rise in 15 years. It's not just lagging behind, they've been exploited. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 06:30 - May 30 with 914 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:16 - May 29 by max936 |
"very little work pressure." you have no idea, none at all.
I'd love your job, I've no time to spend on here through the day on any working week, but you seem to manage it, what was that you mentioned about work ethic. [Post edited 29 May 23:17]
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I do get leave mind. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 06:37 - May 30 with 913 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:22 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
Ultimately, what do you do at a GP visit? You give them a list of symptoms, and they give you a diagnosis. That's basically Google. Maybe there will be a couple of Nurses on hand to do the odd examination/test, but in a few years there will be very little need for GP's to exist.
I would daresay that eventually AI would do a better job, because it won't be intimidated by an aggressive junkie skiver demanding a sick note for "anxiety and depression", nor will it be bored by mid afternoon and willing to diagnose whatever is necessary to get the individual out of its office.
And yes, many, many jobs can be completely replaced by AI. I probably could in my job. [Post edited 29 May 23:36]
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But you usually have an examination of some description too, I'm sure AI will be able to that too one day but at the moment it needs a human. Any problems identified need to be escalated properly.
The law in most cases is written down and needs to be read, calculations are done on spreadsheets.
There's a number of reasons we're short of Dr's but not accountants. [Post edited 30 May 6:52]
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 09:27 - May 30 with 840 views | controversial_jack |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:46 - May 29 by Gwyn737 |
The ability to learn more and remember more is pretty much what intelligence is.
I don’t think you’re being fair on the academic ability you need to be a doctor. [Post edited 29 May 22:49]
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Critical thinking is more relevant to intelligence than just regurgitating information | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 09:34 - May 30 with 842 views | howenjack |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 06:37 - May 30 by Scotia |
But you usually have an examination of some description too, I'm sure AI will be able to that too one day but at the moment it needs a human. Any problems identified need to be escalated properly.
The law in most cases is written down and needs to be read, calculations are done on spreadsheets.
There's a number of reasons we're short of Dr's but not accountants. [Post edited 30 May 6:52]
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Doctors are like any profession there are good and bad amongst them not just ethically Dr Shipman , Bodkin Adams being 2 examples . Practically as well - Ive come across a couple where you think how the hell is he a Dr? Some have a limited command of English . Others have been superb especially in operating theatres . Surgeons /consultants operate at the sharp end no pun intended and have to be ruthlessly accurate . G.P's less so in my opinion . ATM I would say in the present financial climate remuneration is sufficient as Dr Winston said and he's a Dr remember their pay comes from the taxpayers , there is only so much to go round.
In my opinion we have far too many mp's and the government /civil service needs trimming we are operating this country as if we still have an empire to run . Thats where we could save some money I also think drs who qualify in Britain should be barred from working abroad for 10 years to stop the brain drain if there is one. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 09:59 - May 30 with 817 views | controversial_jack |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 09:34 - May 30 by howenjack |
Doctors are like any profession there are good and bad amongst them not just ethically Dr Shipman , Bodkin Adams being 2 examples . Practically as well - Ive come across a couple where you think how the hell is he a Dr? Some have a limited command of English . Others have been superb especially in operating theatres . Surgeons /consultants operate at the sharp end no pun intended and have to be ruthlessly accurate . G.P's less so in my opinion . ATM I would say in the present financial climate remuneration is sufficient as Dr Winston said and he's a Dr remember their pay comes from the taxpayers , there is only so much to go round.
In my opinion we have far too many mp's and the government /civil service needs trimming we are operating this country as if we still have an empire to run . Thats where we could save some money I also think drs who qualify in Britain should be barred from working abroad for 10 years to stop the brain drain if there is one. |
How can you stop anyone going overseas to work unless you imprison them. Nobody is going to sign a contract that ties them down like that | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 10:09 - May 30 with 807 views | Whiterockin |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 09:59 - May 30 by controversial_jack |
How can you stop anyone going overseas to work unless you imprison them. Nobody is going to sign a contract that ties them down like that |
It is a fact that some NHS training now have a tie in that if you do not remain in the NHS for the required number of years ofter qualifying you have to repay you training fees. Dentists and Midwives are cases in fact. |  | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 10:41 - May 30 with 765 views | howenjack |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 10:09 - May 30 by Whiterockin |
It is a fact that some NHS training now have a tie in that if you do not remain in the NHS for the required number of years ofter qualifying you have to repay you training fees. Dentists and Midwives are cases in fact. |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:10 - May 30 with 668 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 14:59 - May 29 by Scotia |
Socialism at least. And precisely why neither system can work. |
That's the point though, capitalism doesn't work, not for the many. It's weighted in favour of the rich and powerful and ALL our politicians, whatever political animal they claim to be, keep reinforcing that imbalance.
Tony Blairs government weighted the benefits and tax systems in favour of corporate greed, it has only gotten worse ever since. People blame Thatcher for a lot but has been a politiciian since her that has truly been in the job as a public servant?
I don't think so. Self serving greed is all politics is these days.
PS, if that sounds like communism I don't really care because the many have very little compared to the few and it's not sustainable unless we all accept heading back towards serfdom.
Do doc torse deserve a pay rise, I'd say yes but to give those that deserve more what they deserve we have to rebalance the pay structures and those people at the top earning obscene amounts won't give it up without a fight. [Post edited 30 May 18:12]
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:05 - Jun 1 with 510 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 10:09 - May 30 by Whiterockin |
It is a fact that some NHS training now have a tie in that if you do not remain in the NHS for the required number of years ofter qualifying you have to repay you training fees. Dentists and Midwives are cases in fact. |
Personally I think that's exactly what we need to do with all NHS staff, no student fees but a golden handcuff employment contract. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:14 - Jun 1 with 496 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:10 - May 30 by SullutaCreturned |
That's the point though, capitalism doesn't work, not for the many. It's weighted in favour of the rich and powerful and ALL our politicians, whatever political animal they claim to be, keep reinforcing that imbalance.
Tony Blairs government weighted the benefits and tax systems in favour of corporate greed, it has only gotten worse ever since. People blame Thatcher for a lot but has been a politiciian since her that has truly been in the job as a public servant?
I don't think so. Self serving greed is all politics is these days.
PS, if that sounds like communism I don't really care because the many have very little compared to the few and it's not sustainable unless we all accept heading back towards serfdom.
Do doc torse deserve a pay rise, I'd say yes but to give those that deserve more what they deserve we have to rebalance the pay structures and those people at the top earning obscene amounts won't give it up without a fight. [Post edited 30 May 18:12]
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Cat, I think the problem is the practice not the theory. The people are the problem.
Socialism and communism won't work because fundamentally people aren't equal. That's down to evolution.
Capitalism doesn't work because people are greedy, but that's down to evolution too. But it is slightly better than the alternative.
Ultimately I genuinely think we're going to destroy ourselves over the next 20 thousand years or so. We can see it coming but are too stupid to do anything about it.
Just look at this thread, quibbling over the people who keep us alive in a job the vast majority cannot do earning a sensible wage. It's barking mad really. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:16 - Jun 1 with 488 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:14 - Jun 1 by Scotia |
Cat, I think the problem is the practice not the theory. The people are the problem.
Socialism and communism won't work because fundamentally people aren't equal. That's down to evolution.
Capitalism doesn't work because people are greedy, but that's down to evolution too. But it is slightly better than the alternative.
Ultimately I genuinely think we're going to destroy ourselves over the next 20 thousand years or so. We can see it coming but are too stupid to do anything about it.
Just look at this thread, quibbling over the people who keep us alive in a job the vast majority cannot do earning a sensible wage. It's barking mad really. |
What do you mean people aren't equal ?
Do you think you are better than me ?
Do you think your family is better than my family ? | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:23 - Jun 1 with 470 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:16 - Jun 1 by trampie |
What do you mean people aren't equal ?
Do you think you are better than me ?
Do you think your family is better than my family ? |
Just go and read up on natural selection. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:28 - Jun 1 with 458 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:23 - Jun 1 by Scotia |
Just go and read up on natural selection. |
You need to explain yourself, you haven't answered :-
What do you mean people aren't equal ?
Do you think you are better than me ?
Do you think your family is better than my family ? | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:44 - Jun 1 with 441 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:28 - Jun 1 by trampie |
You need to explain yourself, you haven't answered :-
What do you mean people aren't equal ?
Do you think you are better than me ?
Do you think your family is better than my family ? |
I don't know you or your family. I'm pretty satisfied that my family make a positive contribution to society, we aren't perfect but we do our best.
I don't need to explain myself to you but I will outline the basis, some people make a significant contribution to society others don't. Some hover around the mid point. That's fine with me, we're a civilised society and we should help those in need. But the fundamental point is that people have to help themselves, many don't. That's the basis of evolution. It will always be the case.
We aren't equal. I don't think a homeless addict who's thrown away every opportunity offered to them is equal to the successful surgeon (from exactly the same background as the addict) who's strived to make the best of themselves from the limited opportunities they may have had. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:48 - Jun 1 with 432 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:44 - Jun 1 by Scotia |
I don't know you or your family. I'm pretty satisfied that my family make a positive contribution to society, we aren't perfect but we do our best.
I don't need to explain myself to you but I will outline the basis, some people make a significant contribution to society others don't. Some hover around the mid point. That's fine with me, we're a civilised society and we should help those in need. But the fundamental point is that people have to help themselves, many don't. That's the basis of evolution. It will always be the case.
We aren't equal. I don't think a homeless addict who's thrown away every opportunity offered to them is equal to the successful surgeon (from exactly the same background as the addict) who's strived to make the best of themselves from the limited opportunities they may have had. |
Thats Nazi ideology, natural selection, survival of the fittest, you should be ashamed of yourself and you have the gall to question me when you harbour such beliefs. | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:00 - Jun 1 with 416 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:48 - Jun 1 by trampie |
Thats Nazi ideology, natural selection, survival of the fittest, you should be ashamed of yourself and you have the gall to question me when you harbour such beliefs. |
So you can disprove Darwin? Crack on. | | | |
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