| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise 07:54 - May 29 with 3304 views | AnotherJohn |
The resident doctors - the new term for doctors in the training grades - got a pay uplift of about 22% last year and are now demanding a further 29% rise this year.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/junior-doctors-seeking-almost-30-073732927.html
The forum was divided in its views last year. Some of us worried that such a generous pay deal would trigger a round of catch-up pay demands in the public sector, but I don't think anybody thought the doctors would come back for so much more so quickly. As a reminder, the present scale for the training grades in England runs from £36,616 to £70,425. Salaries for consultants, specialty and specialist doctors (SAS) and GPs go much higher. Thoughts? |  | | |  |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:51 - May 29 with 610 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:43 - May 29 by Scotia |
I think that's absolutely fair.
A newly qualified tradesman could easily clear more than a resident Dr with no debt from training and very little work pressure.
When you consider some of those resident Dr's will go on to undertake organ transplants, open heart or brain surgery I think £500k is perfectly acceptable for them to earn. |
First year doctors in training are not doing complex operations on their own, they will get the big bucks when they have served their apprenticeship for want of a better phrase. |  |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:53 - May 29 with 605 views | Gwyn737 |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:34 - May 29 by JACKMANANDBOY |
My point was that the career progression and benefits for doctors puts a very different context to comparison with a newly qualified tradesman for example. |
Hence my point about pay distribution.
Why make it so hard for doctors to get to the point they can live comfortably 🤷
Having said that, I’m not entirely sure it would work. They did it with teaching by shrinking the 9 point scale to a 5 point scale. All that’s happened is experienced teachers can’t get jobs a they’re seen as too expensive. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:57 - May 29 with 583 views | Dr_Winston |
The comparison between footballers and doctors/nurses in terms of pay has always been one of the most inane ones people can make.
Firstly, footballers aren't paid from taxes. All of them, especially at the higher levels, are contributors to the Treasury. A footballer on the average Premier League salary of £67,000 a week will pay around £1.6m a year in tax. We should want footballers to earn more, not less.
Secondly, Premier League footballers are considerably rarer than surgeons. There are approximately 65,000 specialist surgeons in the UK. There were about 550 players in the Premier League last season.
Anyhoo, back to the main topic. Who could have possibly predicted that completely surrendering to public sector wage demands last year would only embolden the unions in this one? |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:01 - May 29 with 557 views | Whiterockin |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:57 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
The comparison between footballers and doctors/nurses in terms of pay has always been one of the most inane ones people can make.
Firstly, footballers aren't paid from taxes. All of them, especially at the higher levels, are contributors to the Treasury. A footballer on the average Premier League salary of £67,000 a week will pay around £1.6m a year in tax. We should want footballers to earn more, not less.
Secondly, Premier League footballers are considerably rarer than surgeons. There are approximately 65,000 specialist surgeons in the UK. There were about 550 players in the Premier League last season.
Anyhoo, back to the main topic. Who could have possibly predicted that completely surrendering to public sector wage demands last year would only embolden the unions in this one? |
We could always compare to train drivers, their salary and recent increase. |  | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:06 - May 29 with 551 views | Dr_Winston |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:01 - May 29 by Whiterockin |
We could always compare to train drivers, their salary and recent increase. |
£60k a year top end for doing something that could probably be automated if the will was there. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:16 - May 29 with 543 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:51 - May 29 by trampie |
First year doctors in training are not doing complex operations on their own, they will get the big bucks when they have served their apprenticeship for want of a better phrase. |
They've been training for an absolute minimum of 5 years already but they've only been earning for one.
That's not for want of a better phrase, it's entirely inaccurate. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:20 - May 29 with 522 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:16 - May 29 by Scotia |
They've been training for an absolute minimum of 5 years already but they've only been earning for one.
That's not for want of a better phrase, it's entirely inaccurate. |
Do you think that first year junior doctors are doing complex surgeries with no supervision ? | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:23 - May 29 with 527 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:20 - May 29 by trampie |
Do you think that first year junior doctors are doing complex surgeries with no supervision ? |
No. But they earn every penny of their salary relevant to their role.
I have no problem with surgeons doing complex operations substantial salaries. They deserve it.
This thread is about newly qualified Drs though. | | | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:29 - May 29 with 501 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 18:57 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
The comparison between footballers and doctors/nurses in terms of pay has always been one of the most inane ones people can make.
Firstly, footballers aren't paid from taxes. All of them, especially at the higher levels, are contributors to the Treasury. A footballer on the average Premier League salary of £67,000 a week will pay around £1.6m a year in tax. We should want footballers to earn more, not less.
Secondly, Premier League footballers are considerably rarer than surgeons. There are approximately 65,000 specialist surgeons in the UK. There were about 550 players in the Premier League last season.
Anyhoo, back to the main topic. Who could have possibly predicted that completely surrendering to public sector wage demands last year would only embolden the unions in this one? |
Labour are in a difficult position now, had the public sector (Drs on this case) had sensible pay increases over the preceding decade and a bit though they wouldn't have been. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:37 - May 29 with 482 views | Whiterockin |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:29 - May 29 by Scotia |
Labour are in a difficult position now, had the public sector (Drs on this case) had sensible pay increases over the preceding decade and a bit though they wouldn't have been. |
If you come in and cave to the train drivers you make a rod for your back. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:45 - May 29 with 457 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:37 - May 29 by Whiterockin |
If you come in and cave to the train drivers you make a rod for your back. |
The same goes for those too. I don't know if they deserve their salary, but should have a sensible pay award each year.
I've actually just re-read the first post, it mentions triggering "catch up" public sector pay awards. That's the problem, catch up pay awards are needed but they shouldn't be. No public servant wants more than a fair increase each year.
Of course there are one group of public servants who haven't waited at all but got a raise each year. MP's themselves. [Post edited 29 May 20:37]
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 20:41 - May 29 with 403 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:23 - May 29 by Scotia |
No. But they earn every penny of their salary relevant to their role.
I have no problem with surgeons doing complex operations substantial salaries. They deserve it.
This thread is about newly qualified Drs though. |
Exactly it's about Doctors in training in their first year due to their wage being brought up by you I believe regarding their first 12 months of training, but you then go on to talk about brain surgery. | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 20:45 - May 29 with 384 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 19:45 - May 29 by Scotia |
The same goes for those too. I don't know if they deserve their salary, but should have a sensible pay award each year.
I've actually just re-read the first post, it mentions triggering "catch up" public sector pay awards. That's the problem, catch up pay awards are needed but they shouldn't be. No public servant wants more than a fair increase each year.
Of course there are one group of public servants who haven't waited at all but got a raise each year. MP's themselves. [Post edited 29 May 20:37]
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You don't know if train drivers deserve their salary ?, they are responsible for the lives of tens of thousands of passengers every year, go past a red light or go too fast over certain sections of track and it's game over. | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 21:51 - May 29 with 325 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 20:45 - May 29 by trampie |
You don't know if train drivers deserve their salary ?, they are responsible for the lives of tens of thousands of passengers every year, go past a red light or go too fast over certain sections of track and it's game over. |
Is it really any different to a bus driver? They don't earn that.
In fact bus drivers have to know where they are going train drivers don't.
I don't pretend to know much about the job though. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 21:55 - May 29 with 322 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 20:41 - May 29 by trampie |
Exactly it's about Doctors in training in their first year due to their wage being brought up by you I believe regarding their first 12 months of training, but you then go on to talk about brain surgery. |
It's not their first year, it's at least their 5th. Potentially their 8th. It's not an apprenticeship mind.
This thread is about them. Nobody else. They're worth more than they get. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:01 - May 29 with 301 views | Whiterockin |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 21:55 - May 29 by Scotia |
It's not their first year, it's at least their 5th. Potentially their 8th. It's not an apprenticeship mind.
This thread is about them. Nobody else. They're worth more than they get. |
Its easy to say they are overpaid until you need them and they are not there. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:06 - May 29 with 287 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:01 - May 29 by Whiterockin |
Its easy to say they are overpaid until you need them and they are not there. |
Which is why I don't understand why we're on page 3 of this thread. I doubt any contributor could be a Dr even if they wanted to. I couldn't.
We'll all need them. Pay them what they deserve. Oh, and stop making them pay their training costs. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:12 - May 29 with 253 views | Dr_Winston |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:06 - May 29 by Scotia |
Which is why I don't understand why we're on page 3 of this thread. I doubt any contributor could be a Dr even if they wanted to. I couldn't.
We'll all need them. Pay them what they deserve. Oh, and stop making them pay their training costs. |
It takes effort to be a Doctor, but as long as you're not a complete idiot it's far from impossible. It's mostly learning and maintaining the knowledge. GP's will probably be replaced with AI in the not too distant future. Just tap your symptoms into ChatGPT and see what it comes up with. Surgery I suspect is harder because it takes a lot of bottle to open someone up with a scalpel.
Completely agree with you on not making them pay their training costs, as long as they don't turn around and demand a nigh on 30% payrise in return. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:13 - May 29 with 245 views | Whiterockin |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:06 - May 29 by Scotia |
Which is why I don't understand why we're on page 3 of this thread. I doubt any contributor could be a Dr even if they wanted to. I couldn't.
We'll all need them. Pay them what they deserve. Oh, and stop making them pay their training costs. |
But tie them in for a reasonable period after training. | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:26 - May 29 with 219 views | trampie |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:06 - May 29 by Scotia |
Which is why I don't understand why we're on page 3 of this thread. I doubt any contributor could be a Dr even if they wanted to. I couldn't.
We'll all need them. Pay them what they deserve. Oh, and stop making them pay their training costs. |
The argument is they are already getting paid what they deserve, they get paid more than most other countries doctors and who is going to pay for it, money doesn't grow on trees.
When Nye Bevan created the nhs and was asked how he got the doctors on board he said "by stuffing their mouths with gold".
They have always been well paid. | |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:46 - May 29 with 187 views | Gwyn737 |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:12 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
It takes effort to be a Doctor, but as long as you're not a complete idiot it's far from impossible. It's mostly learning and maintaining the knowledge. GP's will probably be replaced with AI in the not too distant future. Just tap your symptoms into ChatGPT and see what it comes up with. Surgery I suspect is harder because it takes a lot of bottle to open someone up with a scalpel.
Completely agree with you on not making them pay their training costs, as long as they don't turn around and demand a nigh on 30% payrise in return. |
The ability to learn more and remember more is pretty much what intelligence is.
I don’t think you’re being fair on the academic ability you need to be a doctor. [Post edited 29 May 22:49]
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:46 - May 29 with 189 views | Scotia |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:26 - May 29 by trampie |
The argument is they are already getting paid what they deserve, they get paid more than most other countries doctors and who is going to pay for it, money doesn't grow on trees.
When Nye Bevan created the nhs and was asked how he got the doctors on board he said "by stuffing their mouths with gold".
They have always been well paid. |
As I said. This thread is about recently qualified Drs, the comparison is of all Drs and misses all manner of other potential comparables.
They earn less than recently qualified tradesman.
Who's going to pay for them? We are. Increase taxes and cuts in the right places. But who will vote for that? | | | |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:58 - May 29 with 175 views | Dr_Winston |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:46 - May 29 by Gwyn737 |
The ability to learn more and remember more is pretty much what intelligence is.
I don’t think you’re being fair on the academic ability you need to be a doctor. [Post edited 29 May 22:49]
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No, I think I'm about right.
You don't need to be a genius to be a Doctor. Smart for sure. Able to retain information? Absolutely. But those skills are far from rare. There are tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people out there with the basic intellectual capacity to train in medicine. It's just that some go in other ways.
There are accountants, engineers, architects etc who all had the brain power to become GP's but went in other directions. That's not to disparage the medical profession, but at the end of the day that's what it is. A profession like any other. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:59 - May 29 with 175 views | max936 |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 10:30 - May 29 by union_jack |
It’s a huge mystery I must say.
Also, why have we now changed from Houseman to F1 / 2 to the American term, Resident. Have we lost our pride and feeling of individuality in this country? |
"Have we lost our pride [our identity] and feeling of individuality in this country"
We lost that a long long time ago Uni and its not gonna get better, look at our americanisation of some of our words and sayings, I fing hate it!
To quote OHL
Look at the state we are in! |  |
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| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 23:03 - May 29 with 171 views | Gwyn737 |
| Resident doctors demand another big pay rise on 22:58 - May 29 by Dr_Winston |
No, I think I'm about right.
You don't need to be a genius to be a Doctor. Smart for sure. Able to retain information? Absolutely. But those skills are far from rare. There are tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people out there with the basic intellectual capacity to train in medicine. It's just that some go in other ways.
There are accountants, engineers, architects etc who all had the brain power to become GP's but went in other directions. That's not to disparage the medical profession, but at the end of the day that's what it is. A profession like any other. |
You think doctors finals are comparable to accountancy exams?
Impossible to prove as suppose as is assume those professions could simply convert. They probably won’t though as the money is better 😉 | | | |
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