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Every time that’s mentioned on the news, the say ‘allegedly’ or ‘apparently’, which is understandable when you see that footage - it’s just unbelievable.
Thoughts go out to all those who perished, and their families, but again… how does anyone escape that?
No but definitely will mate thanks for the tip. It’s one of my other geeky topics.
As a fellow air crash investigation enthusiast immediate thought was wrong flaps take off. Over on PPPrune which is where all the pilots and industry discuss this type of thing there are two main theories across hundreds of posts including 787 pilots
1. They elected flaps up instead of gear up pilot error 2. The one which is looking more likely from the evidence is massive electrical failure and possible bird strike in the left engine. Plane is a notorious lemon at Air India, no A/C or in flight on previous flight. Guy who survived said the the green exit light came on and apparently that only happens in total power loss. Much debate as to whether the RAT which is an emergency power generator deployed
I had a sketchy flight in 2019 and haven't been on a plane since.
Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore.
Blancolirio channel on YT, goes into this a bit as an audio recording of the aircraft's deployed RAT sound (like buzzing bee's) is clearly heard on take off. (from an external source)
The RAT supplies emergency power should the aircraft systems fail.
Its quite a chilling thought that maybe, the RAT deployed, but didnt supply power or enough power to the aircraft on the short take off roll, and the crew may not have spotted that when they were trouble shooting in those 30 seconds that were left.
Blancolirio channel on YT, goes into this a bit as an audio recording of the aircraft's deployed RAT sound (like buzzing bee's) is clearly heard on take off. (from an external source)
The RAT supplies emergency power should the aircraft systems fail.
Its quite a chilling thought that maybe, the RAT deployed, but didnt supply power or enough power to the aircraft on the short take off roll, and the crew may not have spotted that when they were trouble shooting in those 30 seconds that were left.
The original video source now confirms the RAT (Ram Air Turbine) deployed after take-off. It also explains the loud bang the sole survivor heard which is the RAT automatically engaging. It’s unthinkable that the aircraft had a total loss of power but that now seems the likely cause. God help whoever was maintaining the Air India aircraft because that should never happen.
100% the RAT has deployed so it’s a sudden complete loss of power.
In the ‘second’ video from the airport CCTV you can see that the plane achieves positive rate of climb before suddenly falling so I would rule out the idea of misconfigured takeoff. I would also not take seriously the idea that the PIC adjusted the flaps rather than the landing gear - he was ‘inexperienced’ but will have done thousands of takeoffs in the sims alone, let alone real life and it becomes second nature to you, let alone the controls for flaps and landing gear not being next to each other in the cockpit.
You can see in the ‘first’ video that the front landing gear goes slack and is moving, so my expectation is a sudden catastrophic loss of hydraulics, which seems to be a popular theory on the pilot subreddits too.
*disclaimer, not a CPL but PPL and have been lucky enough to spend some time in 77 & 78 sims via a family member working for a simulator company.
Lot of the pilot commentators and amateur sleuths supporting this electronic blackout theory now.
This isn’t going to be good for Boeing if so, the Dreamliner was the one of their planes you were meant to be able to rely on not to kill you.
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It’s the first total loss of a Dreamliner. I’d be focusing my attention on the maintenance of the Air India fleet. Within the industry they have an appalling reputation for the poor condition of their cabins etc. They are owned by TATA so they have a lot to answer for. The FAA and the U.K. AAIB are apparently at the crash scene and will be all over the maintenance records and regime on this particular aircraft and the approach to maintenance by the parent company TATA.
100% the RAT has deployed so it’s a sudden complete loss of power.
In the ‘second’ video from the airport CCTV you can see that the plane achieves positive rate of climb before suddenly falling so I would rule out the idea of misconfigured takeoff. I would also not take seriously the idea that the PIC adjusted the flaps rather than the landing gear - he was ‘inexperienced’ but will have done thousands of takeoffs in the sims alone, let alone real life and it becomes second nature to you, let alone the controls for flaps and landing gear not being next to each other in the cockpit.
You can see in the ‘first’ video that the front landing gear goes slack and is moving, so my expectation is a sudden catastrophic loss of hydraulics, which seems to be a popular theory on the pilot subreddits too.
*disclaimer, not a CPL but PPL and have been lucky enough to spend some time in 77 & 78 sims via a family member working for a simulator company.
Also, the 787, and many other new build aircraft have 'weight on wheels' in which if there is weight on the aircraft it can automatically call up the spoilers then brake.
Also, if the engines were ok (and i am a bit sceptical) a simple press of the 'TOGA' will get mostly any pilot out of deep shit.... (Take Off Go Around), and the aircraft goes like a scolded cat. This will gice the pilot time to think, and set the airplane up properly.
I'm trying to figure out how the RAT wasnt able to help spool the engines up for a Toga, and i'm still not seeing evidence of flaps and slats extended.
So, my vote is..... 'a catastrophic complete loss of main, battery, and RAT supply'. (so far)
The septics will be all over this like a fly on a hot steaming turd.
I had a sketchy flight in 2019 and haven't been on a plane since.
2012 for me flying back from NY just has a sudden virtigo attack and the plane started spinning and I felt like blacking out (the plane was fine I was having the issues).My wife was sitting across the aisle and she told me to keep quiet and calm down as I was starting to panic and raise my voice that we were going down.I death gripped the seat in front of me until the feeling went away but have never stepped on a plane since . A friend who is a retired pilot mentioned if I was moving around at the time i was hitting the ground for sure . He also mentioned the most dangerous time of every flight is takeoff with full tanks etc and any issues/ mistakes are nearly always fatal with no time for the crew to recover . Landing is not great either with multiple close calls every year but at least you are feeling safer that close to the ground . RIP to all involved here
2012 for me flying back from NY just has a sudden virtigo attack and the plane started spinning and I felt like blacking out (the plane was fine I was having the issues).My wife was sitting across the aisle and she told me to keep quiet and calm down as I was starting to panic and raise my voice that we were going down.I death gripped the seat in front of me until the feeling went away but have never stepped on a plane since . A friend who is a retired pilot mentioned if I was moving around at the time i was hitting the ground for sure . He also mentioned the most dangerous time of every flight is takeoff with full tanks etc and any issues/ mistakes are nearly always fatal with no time for the crew to recover . Landing is not great either with multiple close calls every year but at least you are feeling safer that close to the ground . RIP to all involved here
I’m not a good passenger either , I hate flying and feeling of being stuck in a tin can for hours on end with the general public totally fills me with dread Saying all that I love holidays in the sun so it it’s a means to an end otherwise I’d spend my time off in a caravan somewhere in Skegness
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
I must admit that the first or second time , if you've never flown, is a real kick in the head for the nervous.
When i took my son on his first flight, it was a WW2 Dakota that was giving pleasure flights out of Coventry, he loved it, but hell, i was soiling myself.
Subsequently i took my son and dad plus 2 mates on a 'road trip' for 2 weeks. Flew American i think it was, to Cincinatti, and we got put in a hold while the storm passed. However..... then there was a bang, then another one, still in holding, then another one still holding, then 2 more. We were struck 5 times in all, by lightning. We walked off that plane like nothing happened, and apart from the loud bangs and flashes outside the aircraft, the plane didnt miss a beat!
Then i got 'the job', it meant flying stateside, and subsequently many times there, then i got thrown into the far east, with a flight every week or to to China and Hong Kong.
Now, the company i worked for insisted that i went business class, because with the time differences they wanted me fresh to go almost right away, into offices and meetings. So i've experienced almost worst that weather etc can throw at you, only asleep.
However, i believe its still the safest mass transit, available, despite recent events.
Also, the 787, and many other new build aircraft have 'weight on wheels' in which if there is weight on the aircraft it can automatically call up the spoilers then brake.
Also, if the engines were ok (and i am a bit sceptical) a simple press of the 'TOGA' will get mostly any pilot out of deep shit.... (Take Off Go Around), and the aircraft goes like a scolded cat. This will gice the pilot time to think, and set the airplane up properly.
I'm trying to figure out how the RAT wasnt able to help spool the engines up for a Toga, and i'm still not seeing evidence of flaps and slats extended.
So, my vote is..... 'a catastrophic complete loss of main, battery, and RAT supply'. (so far)
The septics will be all over this like a fly on a hot steaming turd.
“ I'm trying to figure out how the RAT wasnt able to help spool the engines up for a Toga, and i'm still not seeing evidence of flaps and slats extended.”
I was watching one of those pilot channels on YT and he was saying that the RAT is meant for handling emergency power loses at higher altitude to provide enough power and time to allow pilots to find and navigate towards an airfield. Therefore the RAT engaging at 200 ft would be of no use but it being deployed is an indication that there was indeed some catastrophic power failure.
I’m not a good passenger either , I hate flying and feeling of being stuck in a tin can for hours on end with the general public totally fills me with dread Saying all that I love holidays in the sun so it it’s a means to an end otherwise I’d spend my time off in a caravan somewhere in Skegness
When I fly to New Zealand a couple of years ago,I went via San Francisco.There had just been the storms on the North Island,and they told us that we might not be able to land in Auckland because of the weather and they would make the decision halfway across the pacific so that they’d had enough fuel to get back again if the need arose. Luckily we were ok,but I certainly wasn’t looking forward to flying for 13 hours just to end up back where we started from. The landing at Auckland was a bit of an experience though.
Also, the 787, and many other new build aircraft have 'weight on wheels' in which if there is weight on the aircraft it can automatically call up the spoilers then brake.
Also, if the engines were ok (and i am a bit sceptical) a simple press of the 'TOGA' will get mostly any pilot out of deep shit.... (Take Off Go Around), and the aircraft goes like a scolded cat. This will gice the pilot time to think, and set the airplane up properly.
I'm trying to figure out how the RAT wasnt able to help spool the engines up for a Toga, and i'm still not seeing evidence of flaps and slats extended.
So, my vote is..... 'a catastrophic complete loss of main, battery, and RAT supply'. (so far)
The septics will be all over this like a fly on a hot steaming turd.
The RAT cannot generate enough power to enable engines to be restarted, it only generates enough power to ensure the flight deck retain access to control and navigation systems to allow them to ANC - aviate, navigate, communicate.
If you lost both engines at 36000ft the RAT buys you time to run through your checklists, communicate with ATC and if engines couldn’t be restarted, navigate to a landing spot within gliding distance.
At 200ft, it couldn’t help in any way - all the pilots could do is try and crash in the least devastating location, however if it was a full hydraulics failure, even then they probably couldn’t do even that.
Lot of the pilot commentators and amateur sleuths supporting this electronic blackout theory now.
This isn’t going to be good for Boeing if so, the Dreamliner was the one of their planes you were meant to be able to rely on not to kill you.
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The 77 & 78 in fairness have been extremely successful and extremely safe planes.
There are so many fail safes and redundancies that it makes me suspect that this is going to be that 1 in a million incident that they couldn’t legislate for, but let’s see.
If it turns out to be an issue with the carrier there will need to be some serious introspection in the airline industry.
The 77 & 78 in fairness have been extremely successful and extremely safe planes.
There are so many fail safes and redundancies that it makes me suspect that this is going to be that 1 in a million incident that they couldn’t legislate for, but let’s see.
If it turns out to be an issue with the carrier there will need to be some serious introspection in the airline industry.
Well yeh they'll certainly be pushing "rogue operator" "dodgy maintenance programme" "developing nation" etc. But then they've done that before...
We'll find out in time I guess, I'd be amazed if they forgot it too but there are a lot of examples of pilots forgetting to do really basic things when they're overworked/rushing/taking things a bit for granted - Little Rock another, trying to land in an extreme thunder storm, forgot to arm the speed brakes for landing.
Like I say, it's a Boeing, landing gear still being down might suggest all their systems just failed on them, flaps, slats the whole lot. But it's in the sht from the moment it lifts off so it could be that they just didn't have time to pull the wheels up.
I'm like you, if I can take the train I do.
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Even though air travel is statistically safer (indeed, the safest form of travel) than rail, and certainly the car. You're more likely to be struck by lightning or eaten by a shark than die in a plane crash. Man is an irrational animal of course . . .
Even though air travel is statistically safer (indeed, the safest form of travel) than rail, and certainly the car. You're more likely to be struck by lightning or eaten by a shark than die in a plane crash. Man is an irrational animal of course . . .
Absolutely.
For me I think it's about control first and foremost. I'm a terrible car passenger as well, I want to be driving. If I'm going to die in a fireball I want it to be my fault.
And also it's the likelihood of coming out of there alive if it does go wrong. It's what massively puts me off getting in a helicopter because everybody says the same thing about them - when one of those goes wrong, you're fcked, no recovering, no survivors.
Somebody mentioned the Ladbroke Grove train crash earlier, a horrendous thing. And there are way more train crashes than plane crashes. But the death total on that was 30/500. Southall rail crash - 7 dead out of 212 passengers. If you're on a train that crashes, even at super high speed, odds are you'll get out of there in some degree of okay.
For me I think it's about control first and foremost. I'm a terrible car passenger as well, I want to be driving. If I'm going to die in a fireball I want it to be my fault.
And also it's the likelihood of coming out of there alive if it does go wrong. It's what massively puts me off getting in a helicopter because everybody says the same thing about them - when one of those goes wrong, you're fcked, no recovering, no survivors.
Somebody mentioned the Ladbroke Grove train crash earlier, a horrendous thing. And there are way more train crashes than plane crashes. But the death total on that was 30/500. Southall rail crash - 7 dead out of 212 passengers. If you're on a train that crashes, even at super high speed, odds are you'll get out of there in some degree of okay.
Plane goes wrong... less so.
The lack of control point…..100%. I never used to have an issue with flying but had car crash as passenger when car flipped over on a motorway in Europe….remember counting to 30 to see if we rolled off motorway or not.
I’ve actually felt more comfortable in an Airbus than a Boeing….no real rational reason for that.
Well yeh they'll certainly be pushing "rogue operator" "dodgy maintenance programme" "developing nation" etc. But then they've done that before...
It’s a delicate one because Air India have had a sketchy history on maintenance and pilot training but obviously it feels a bit low to try and point the finger so early.
It’s a delicate one because Air India have had a sketchy history on maintenance and pilot training but obviously it feels a bit low to try and point the finger so early.
They’ve recovered the 2nd black box overnight, so hopefully they will get some answers.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Off on a dreamliner on Saturday so this wasn't the thread to read!! Luckily, I'm not really a nervous flyer anymore, used to be but took steps to get over it and funnily enough, many episodes of Air Crash Investigation and the like helped. I like the Green Dot Aviation videos on Youtube too, great little mini docs about aviation incidents and how they happened.
An interesting article on the origins of many passengers (including the survivor). I’d never heard of this island, but I dimly remember something about Indians with Portuguese passports when the stories came out about Boohoo paying below minimum wage came out.
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