| Just back - Watford reflections 19:25 - Aug 16 with 10935 views | dannyblue |
Mbengue was not good at left back.
Cook has lost some pace and with that some confidence. A couple times he overcommitted early because, I guess, he didn't think he'd be able to recover.
Unlike last week, Field played deep and Madsen further forward.
Even so, Sammy arrived on two good chances...and put them both wide. A theme.
Madsen effete, as so often.
Burrell promising and physical.
Some games Dembele just gets bullied by the big boys. Needs to learn how to con fouls from Smyth the master.
Ref was annoying and a bit of a homer, but of course we've known worse and it didn't affect the result.
We looked pretty good for the 20 minutes we had a balanced 11 (i.e., once Esquerdinha and Varane came on, and before Celar came one).
What a hit from Kieran.
Chair worked really hard. Would love to see his heat map.
We'll be ok if we can get anything like our first 11 playing regularly. [Post edited 16 Aug 19:26]
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:29 - Aug 17 with 1645 views | Ranger_1969 |
Probably repeating what others have said, but for what it's worth.... I'll start with a positive - I was encouraged by what I saw in the 2nd half yesterday, I've not seen us dominate a game away from home like that for a while.
The key to it was getting Varane on the pitch - was he really only fit enough for a cameo?
That said, it does mean we need our better players on the pitch and playing in their proper positons.
What cost us yesterday, IMHO was team selection. I've no individual criticism of Morgan - he's promising young player and I like him a lot. He's being asked to play in an unfamiliar position and he's making a decent fist of it. But we signed a full back in the summer (Adamson) to cover Dunne. I don't understand why we played Putman at Plymouth If we weren't going to play Adamson here.
Also, taking our quickest CB and putting him at LB - why not play Esquerdinha? He's done okay so far and was also rested in midweek...If not him then why not Vale ?- who I thought was one of our better players playing there at Plymouth.
Some muddled thinking on team selection and it cost us yesterday. |  | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:41 - Aug 17 with 1582 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:21 - Aug 17 by JamesB1979 |
Celar didn’t start and only came on because Demebele can’t last 90 minutes. I also think it was “let’s go for it”, so stuck 2 up front. Celar only started last weekend because we had no other options.
On Madsen - I don’t know. Maybe. I was worried about him being 1 of the 2 pre-season as that what Stephan seemed to be playing / hinting at. But…I’m willing to give benefit of doubt that with Varane out and Morgan as make shift defender, his hands were tied. Let’s see how this one develops I guess. I’m sure we both hope im right anyway! |
I believe the ‘go for it’ strategy resulted in Slugger Zan touching the ball zero times in 15 minutes of play. He’s probably a lovely bloke but he must be a bit embarrassed by how off it he is. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:45 - Aug 17 with 1555 views | Paddyhoops |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 10:58 - Aug 17 by Third_Division_South |
In the first half That was as aggy as I’ve I’ve heard our fans for a long time with loud booing towards the end of the first half. Morgans goal saving the team from a horrible send off at halftime. My other main takeaway from yesterday was how much bigger and stronger their players looked than ours, also when they received the ball they mostly tried to spin and run or progress the ball forward, whereas our players first option always seems to be to pass the ball backwards or sideways, ending up going nowhere with no momentum. |
Couldn’t agree more about the fans getting aggy . Worst I’ve seen for a while . Morgan’s goal papered over the cracks in the first half.
We were a lot a better second half but I get the feeling the travelling fans are getting to point of not putting up with it for much longer.
Coventry will be interesting next week. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:45 - Aug 17 with 1551 views | JamesB1979 |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:41 - Aug 17 by Watford_Ranger |
I believe the ‘go for it’ strategy resulted in Slugger Zan touching the ball zero times in 15 minutes of play. He’s probably a lovely bloke but he must be a bit embarrassed by how off it he is. |
Yeah not saying it’s a good tactic. Gave me same feeling as when Santos used to go up front. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:45 - Aug 17 with 1551 views | calHoop |
You’d hope that the manager has worked a few things out now.
Field and madsen can not play together again, field improved massively when Varane came on. Don’t get the Field hate on this board, he’s a one man midfield with madsen there and it must be tough to know what to do, when your partner hides all game. Chair was dropping in all first half to try and get the ball on the turn and move forward. We need one of our 2 central mids doing that at least, otherwise we’ll be suffocated out of this league.
Playing smyth on the left was a really poor option. Not only from an attacking point of view but defensively we were so exposed first half on that side. Not fair on smyth, and having him ahead of an auxiliary left back was suicide and gave Watford huge confidence early on in the game.
It was an incredibly unbalanced team selection and it didn’t need to be. We’re only a couple of games in but based on the many around me yesterday, the manager needs to make a few obvious changes or he’s going to find it very tough. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:58 - Aug 17 with 1462 views | QPunkR |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 11:41 - Aug 17 by Watford_Ranger |
I believe the ‘go for it’ strategy resulted in Slugger Zan touching the ball zero times in 15 minutes of play. He’s probably a lovely bloke but he must be a bit embarrassed by how off it he is. |
I'd bloody hope he had the common decency to be embarrassed |  |
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 12:03 - Aug 17 with 1434 views | JamesB1979 |
Looking back, I do find it odd that we hear the message “focus on youth” now but then when it comes down to it we go with more experience and out of position players vs youth players in their actual position. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 12:17 - Aug 17 with 1370 views | ozexile |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 12:03 - Aug 17 by JamesB1979 |
Looking back, I do find it odd that we hear the message “focus on youth” now but then when it comes down to it we go with more experience and out of position players vs youth players in their actual position. |
Bizarre isn't it. | | | |
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 12:24 - Aug 17 with 1332 views | dmm |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 09:28 - Aug 17 by Markofthegrove |
But we are now a season and a half into the "game model".
Its a continuation of that. The only time we have had any sustained success in winning games, was when Cifuentes ditched the game model and went with 3 out and out midfielders and dropped the 10.
If you want to play with a 10, you need two wingers that will work back and defend (and backups) and also 3/4 players capable of playing 6 or 8.
The midfield, yet again is a massive problem. |
I agree. When and if Stephan changes his starting 11 choices could well be determined by a Nourry diktat. But a couple of incoming players could also change things, particularly that CM we're all gagging for. |  | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 14:14 - Aug 17 with 1116 views | londonscottish |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 20:19 - Aug 16 by NorthantsHoop |
We should focus on trying to sign Hayden, forget about Saito. Pay Hayden a decent wedge not worry about sell on fee. We need steel in that central midfield, signing another midget ain't gonna do it. |
100%
I can't understand the fixation some people have with Saito.
If we could sign only one of the two, it's Hayden all day long for me. In this division with the sort of big units a lot of the oppo teams have. |  |
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 15:44 - Aug 17 with 952 views | LazyFan |
We learned some things from this game and so it seems did the manager or so he says.
We learned that ...
Mbengue is not a LB, he's a CB that can sometimes play RB if we need it as a backup to Dunne (but we didn't do that).
Esquerdinha can play LB, but he might be lightweight get bullied a bit, but he's still better than Mbegnue at LB. Dale after his LB defensive performance against a 17 year old in the cup has been found out as not being a LB and the manager see it too now, otherwise he would have brought Vale on instead of Esquerdinha when he could no longer risk Mbengue on a yellow.
Burrell cannot play the lone number 9 up front or false 9. He needs someone to partner with.
Celar is not even an impact sub like Burrell is.
Smyth is not match fit or should be on the left.
Demeble only runs back half the time, still more than the ...
Obvious Madsen which is like playing with 10 men.
I used to say he does not run run run, well I have worked out why.
He failed to do something that everyone else does, which is why he's always marking space and not closing down quick enough.
He fails to Sprint.
Sure, he can do basic runnning. But he cannot Sprint, not at all. I am not talking Burrell speed sprinting, Cook slow sprinting would be enough as Cook shows us. But Madsen fails to do even that and this is why he will never come good in the Champ. His skill is super high so, thats why in some games he gets away with it and does Prem stuff, like through balls and so on. But he's just not in the game for the majority of the time, its like playing with 10 men.
For a comparison of what I mean look at Morgan in the last 10 mins up against Baar, Morgan was knackered and being run ragged as he was super tired by that time and was unable to get back into positions in time. But fair enough hes run like a maniac all game. But this is Madsen all the time, the equivalent of someone playing out of position whos been run ragged for 80 mins hard and been up and down the pitch like a yo-yo and its just not good enough for the Champ.
A non-match fit Varane who is not up to speed is far better than Madsen and the manager almost said it post-game interview.
Hopefully he will move Mbengue over to RB (they ease Dunne back in), try Esquerdinha at LB and then drop Madsen for Morgan (the manager does like to reward those who score). I suspect he will pick Kolli over Smyth on the left this time. And Kone will come in for Burrell.
We shall see. |  |
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 16:01 - Aug 17 with 897 views | nix |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 10:34 - Aug 17 by GaryBannister86 |
So I am not allowed to enquire without having some sort of agenda?
I'm just a fan, have absolutely no inside knowledge whatsoever. I am entitled to have a brain of my own and I never believed that Marti was forced to pick a certain team. I also find it hard to believe what some have claimed that Stephan isn't having a free rein on the side either. However, employing my brain cell on the team selections for Tuesday and Saturday it does seem fair to raise doubts. Is that allowed? That or Stephan has the same managerial aptitude as Ainsworth.
What I am saying is that I am fed up of QPR's losing mentality all round. I am fed up of us morphing into a club where we are meant to get excited about selling players at a profit. I am fed up of us throwing away cup ties, of being a soft touch on the road. And at home, come to that. Of team selections that make no sense even to a tactical dunce like me.
I wasn't there yesterday, but some are saying the discontent is arriving. Well, if we get stuffed at Coventry and Kelman bares his arse at the loft having scored the winner for Charlton, that would mean the fans are going to get seriously irritated. I will be. But at who? That's my point. Maybe I will just have a go at all of them, the owners, Nourry, Stephan, Jude the Cat. Because I don't really know what is going on.
I don't understand this game model and performance managers and stuff. Seems to me if it goes well people say that was down to me and if it doesn't it was down to someone else. [Post edited 17 Aug 10:36]
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Of course you can enquire but I'm just speculating you might have an agenda in the spirit of idle enquiry but you can't call me out about it as it's just an enquiry.
Your evidence base of largely one cup game when we've got lots of injuries is very thin.
You say you're fed up with us 'morphing into a club where we are meant to get excited about selling players at a profit. ' Well I'd much rather have a glorious couple of years watching Eze and selling him at a profit than see endless Joel Lynchs, Joey Bartons, Sean Wright Phillips, Jeff Hendricks pulling down our financial pants and partying in Dubai on the process. I hope to see some of our current crop follow the Eze path.
I wouldn't mind but it has hardly benefitted us in the long run we ended up with a massive fine and made no legacy.
I hate losing too. Who doesn't. I can just have a bit more patience and don't see the point of getting aggy after two league matches especially as the saintly Marti has the same cup record as us - out in the first round - with his much more expensive squad plus only has more Championship points down to a last minute goal against ten man Sheffield Wednesday.
I don't understand the game models either but I think two matches with injuries and new players is very early days to write Stephan and his squad off let alone comparing him with Ainsworth. [Post edited 17 Aug 16:05]
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 16:05 - Aug 17 with 864 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 10:29 - Aug 17 by francisbowles |
Very good post and tend to agree with most if not all of it.
Minor point in mitigation, I think Morgan picked up a knock last Saturday and on Tuesday may have been doubtful for yesterday. However, I still think Adamson could have done with an hour on Tuesday. |
I personally don’t think the team selection on Tuesday had anything to do with resting players.
For me, the decision was taken to just put as many dev players out there as possible, whilst giving minutes to Burrell and Nardi. We had absolutely no intention or desire to win that game, it was a PR exercise, no more, no less.
As for Nourry picking the side, utter tosh. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 16:26 - Aug 17 with 805 views | nix |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 10:42 - Aug 17 by mart_Goblin |
All very well but do you think a coach as experienced as Stephen is , with all his experience, would try to win the game on Tuesday by putting on 2 16 year olds ? Not Rooney and Owen in their teenage pomp , but 2 kids who hadn’t even trained with the first team until Monday . And a 17 year old added to the DS squad and Nardi ….to try to win a cup tie?
So it’s not GB suggesting it .
It’s front in front of everyone if you want to see it |
I think your point about 'if you want to see it' is relevant here. You might want to see that. I think it's an unsafe conclusion to make about a guy who's managed in the Champions League on so little evidence and there are other more likely explanations than the puppet theory.
But if you want to see it you will continue to see it.
Look, I don't know anything for a certain. I just find the constant, unsubstantiated theories on every single thread putting the manager and CEO in a sinister light wearying and unhelpful.
It doesn't mean I am not a real fan, love losing, don't see any issues, think everything is wonderful, am overcome by Nourry's suit or any other nonsense.
It might mean I'm blindingly naive and I'll take that one. It might mean I'll be badly disappointed in a few weeks time. I'd prefer to be that than risk putting huge pressure on a manager and players who might turn out to be good. | | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 18:34 - Aug 17 with 614 views | baz_qpr |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 10:51 - Aug 17 by JamesB1979 |
Well rightly or wrongly, the choice of starting full backs was Dunne and Larkeche. With Adamson and Esquerdinha as cover. We lost both 1st choice, 1 for the season and all relatively recently. I think it does take some time to get cover in and also when 1 injury was/is uncertain. What I don’t understand is why the 2 youth players didn’t start yesterday, as they were the “cover” options. |
Because they thought Baah one of the leagues stand out wingers would be playing and were not prepared to "Santos" him. I get it from a player development perspective you would not want to destroy the kid. He may well of stood up to it, but I get the conservatism.
As to Adamson again looks far from ready from the pre-season games I've seen so they dont want to throw him in. This is about a) Trust and b) Recognising that it's a marathon not a sprint and we could set a player back weeks / months etc by not managing the introduction to this level properly
We will almost certainly have a new LB by the end of the month.
As a fanbase we have to recognise that the strategy / project / whatever you want to call it is going to be taking decision for the medium / long term especially at this stage of the season |  | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 19:13 - Aug 17 with 527 views | kensalriser |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 16:05 - Aug 17 by Burnleyhoop |
I personally don’t think the team selection on Tuesday had anything to do with resting players.
For me, the decision was taken to just put as many dev players out there as possible, whilst giving minutes to Burrell and Nardi. We had absolutely no intention or desire to win that game, it was a PR exercise, no more, no less.
As for Nourry picking the side, utter tosh. |
Do I think Nourry picked the side? No.
Do I think Stephan picked that side off his own bat without any dialogue with Nourry? Not a chance. |  |
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| Just back - Watford reflections on 20:26 - Aug 17 with 414 views | GaryBannister86 |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 16:01 - Aug 17 by nix |
Of course you can enquire but I'm just speculating you might have an agenda in the spirit of idle enquiry but you can't call me out about it as it's just an enquiry.
Your evidence base of largely one cup game when we've got lots of injuries is very thin.
You say you're fed up with us 'morphing into a club where we are meant to get excited about selling players at a profit. ' Well I'd much rather have a glorious couple of years watching Eze and selling him at a profit than see endless Joel Lynchs, Joey Bartons, Sean Wright Phillips, Jeff Hendricks pulling down our financial pants and partying in Dubai on the process. I hope to see some of our current crop follow the Eze path.
I wouldn't mind but it has hardly benefitted us in the long run we ended up with a massive fine and made no legacy.
I hate losing too. Who doesn't. I can just have a bit more patience and don't see the point of getting aggy after two league matches especially as the saintly Marti has the same cup record as us - out in the first round - with his much more expensive squad plus only has more Championship points down to a last minute goal against ten man Sheffield Wednesday.
I don't understand the game models either but I think two matches with injuries and new players is very early days to write Stephan and his squad off let alone comparing him with Ainsworth. [Post edited 17 Aug 16:05]
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I don't get this "you have an agenda" business as I only care about QPR winning games, literally nothing else. I know nothing else, I am afraid. And we ain't winning.
It fascinates me that as a fellow R you can think any evidence "very thin" about Tuesday's team selection, which was to me one of the biggest slap in the faces as a fan you can have. Injuries, my backside. Fatigue on Saturday? Embarrassing.
Eze's time was "glorious years"? Eh? Who do you think we are, Wycombe Wanderers?
Anyway. agree to disagree. |  | | |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 23:41 - Aug 17 with 216 views | nix |
| Just back - Watford reflections on 20:26 - Aug 17 by GaryBannister86 |
I don't get this "you have an agenda" business as I only care about QPR winning games, literally nothing else. I know nothing else, I am afraid. And we ain't winning.
It fascinates me that as a fellow R you can think any evidence "very thin" about Tuesday's team selection, which was to me one of the biggest slap in the faces as a fan you can have. Injuries, my backside. Fatigue on Saturday? Embarrassing.
Eze's time was "glorious years"? Eh? Who do you think we are, Wycombe Wanderers?
Anyway. agree to disagree. |
Jeez where did I say it was a glorious time when Eze played? I was talking about him not the whole frigging team. I thought it was glorious watching him play if you didn't then I feel sorry for you. And my point was about the difference in having him for a couple of years and selling on and having a load of ageing players since you don't like buying players to sell on. Young ambitious players are always going to want to move on eventually until we gradually use the money we get in to challenge for the Prem ourselves. It's what Ipswich did and Sunderland did.But misrepresenting what I've actually said is a theme throughout this thread.
You claim to care only about winning games but then go on about Nourry furnishing his CV and players coming to us to end up in the Prem. It's not really consistent.
I srill don't get how playing second string as other teams like Leicester and Midlesbrough both did and lost - means that Nourry is involved in team selection. It's evidence of nothing except us not valuing the cups and having lots of injuries not of Nourry picking the team. I understand people raging about not going big for the cups but that's not all you and other posters are saying.
But we're getting nowhere so I agree with agreeing to disagree. | | | |
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