| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 19:51 - Aug 6 with 1300 views | nix |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 18:36 - Aug 6 by Rsole |
It’s not a presumption - it’s a possible scenario when you don’t have many striking options, don’t score many goals and have a somewhat leaky defence.
No one said that the recruitment was better or worse but there’s now only one throat to choke on that front. Changing the coach (again) won’t correct any recruitment mistakes if they are not involved in it, but that’s the most likely outcome if the team doesn’t perform.
Having a strategy is fine - if it works. If it doesn’t, then maybe the coach shouldn’t be the one that’s fired.
Blindly trusting an unproven process has nothing to do with strategy. That’s called hope and hope is definitely not a strategy.
A proven process, that works season after season, is an entirely different matter. Combine that with a strategy, a decent coach, the right culture, progressive owners etc and you probably have a good chance of success. Still not guaranteed but at least you have the odds in your favour - just as long as you don’t get relegated in the meantime. |
We have potentially brought in more goals than last season with Poku and Burrell. We've got more pace in the squad to stretch defences too. We've also got a fit Chair who normally contributes 5-6 a season. Last season ten out of the 21 teams that weren't relegated scored the same or fewer.
It's not about scapegoting the coach and getting a better one who picks better. It's about developing a style where you slot a new coach in who can work with the existing players.
You might not choose to compare past recruitment but I think to most objective people it's the only way to assess progression.
How do you prove a process without trying it? I would also say that it is something tried by other clubs like Brentford or Brighton where the recruitment isn't primarily driven by the manager. Where we have done the opposite like with Beale it wasn't exactly great. Also processes feed into an overall strategy.
But really if you want to focus on an invented scenario and be angry about it, I'm not going to question it any more. |  | |  |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 21:12 - Aug 6 with 1138 views | Lblock |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 19:18 - Aug 6 by nix |
I agree to some extent with all of that and I've said it myself that there's a risk that we've gone too far in the future focus direction and that we need precisely those positions you mentioned.
I don't think that means we'll lose our first ten matches though. And what's the point in presenting that as a scenario apart from whipping up anger before the season has started and the transfer window closed.
As for who will be below us most commentators think Sheff Wed (surely not controversial), Hull and Preston at the very least. Stoke and Oxford Utd are other candidates mentioned.
But if we do lose the first ten, I will agree with your ffrustration. |
I'm not whipping up anger......... I'm always angry 
I'd certainly not expect us to start this season like the last two.
Christ I hope not!
I'm merely saying that it will get a bit fruity if we're playing without a recognised striker and lose the two home games v PNE and Charlton.
Rightly so in my book.
It does my head in every season why the transfer window runs 4 weeks into the season and, why, for the love of Christ, clubs seem to leave it until Sky's w@nkathon last day to make additions etc.
Get a squad pre-season and work it. |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 21:16 - Aug 6 with 1124 views | Rsole |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 19:51 - Aug 6 by nix |
We have potentially brought in more goals than last season with Poku and Burrell. We've got more pace in the squad to stretch defences too. We've also got a fit Chair who normally contributes 5-6 a season. Last season ten out of the 21 teams that weren't relegated scored the same or fewer.
It's not about scapegoting the coach and getting a better one who picks better. It's about developing a style where you slot a new coach in who can work with the existing players.
You might not choose to compare past recruitment but I think to most objective people it's the only way to assess progression.
How do you prove a process without trying it? I would also say that it is something tried by other clubs like Brentford or Brighton where the recruitment isn't primarily driven by the manager. Where we have done the opposite like with Beale it wasn't exactly great. Also processes feed into an overall strategy.
But really if you want to focus on an invented scenario and be angry about it, I'm not going to question it any more. |
If you really want to be objective, you’d have to compare results over recruitment.
Is this years recruitment better or worse than previous years - we’ll find out in the coming months when we see those results and league position.
Regardless of whether one player is better or worse than another, we are missing key players in several positions, yet again.
But our start this season is disproportionally important and we’ve known that for a while now. So, if you really have a strategy, you’d recruit for that start instead of starting badly and piling on the pressure.
Most successful strategies have a vision and a more importantly, some ambition. We don’t have either of those available in the public domain. Buy cheap and sell for more is no better than commodity trading if the club doesn’t progress in terms of results.
Other clubs provide business models and reference points that work for them, which you can study and take best practice from. Doesn’t mean they will work for you but it’s a starting point.
Whilst trusting Beale may have been proven wrong in the long run, he did actually get us to the top of the championship at one brief point. Do I want him (or similar) back ? No, I don’t but you can’t say that approach was less successful if you measure success by results.
What I originally commented on was that we should not blindly trust an unproven process at QPR and I maintain that. I would add a further word of warning that you shouldn’t trust someone that has never done this before to provide said processes anymore than you should trust Beale. |  |
| Those possessed by devils, try and keep them under control a bit, can't you ?
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| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 04:49 - Aug 7 with 901 views | nix |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 21:16 - Aug 6 by Rsole |
If you really want to be objective, you’d have to compare results over recruitment.
Is this years recruitment better or worse than previous years - we’ll find out in the coming months when we see those results and league position.
Regardless of whether one player is better or worse than another, we are missing key players in several positions, yet again.
But our start this season is disproportionally important and we’ve known that for a while now. So, if you really have a strategy, you’d recruit for that start instead of starting badly and piling on the pressure.
Most successful strategies have a vision and a more importantly, some ambition. We don’t have either of those available in the public domain. Buy cheap and sell for more is no better than commodity trading if the club doesn’t progress in terms of results.
Other clubs provide business models and reference points that work for them, which you can study and take best practice from. Doesn’t mean they will work for you but it’s a starting point.
Whilst trusting Beale may have been proven wrong in the long run, he did actually get us to the top of the championship at one brief point. Do I want him (or similar) back ? No, I don’t but you can’t say that approach was less successful if you measure success by results.
What I originally commented on was that we should not blindly trust an unproven process at QPR and I maintain that. I would add a further word of warning that you shouldn’t trust someone that has never done this before to provide said processes anymore than you should trust Beale. |
If you really want to be objective, you’d have to compare results over recruitment.
That might be your approach. It's not mine and I think it's that short-term approach that's got us into trouble in the past. Of course results are important, vital , but not the only metric to assess how we're doing as a club. There has to be an overall assessment including the personnel, general professionalism, recruitment AND development.
Is this years recruitment better or worse than previous years - we’ll find out in the coming months when we see those results and league position
Again with the short-termism. Some of the recruiting is at DS level. How can you judge that over the next few months? Obviously getting some results now is really important but if we're lower mid-table in a couple of months time that would be progress over the last two seasons, where we were in the relegation places.
Most successful strategies have a vision and a more importantly, some ambition. We don’t have either of those available in the public domain. Buy cheap and sell for more is no better than commodity trading if the club doesn’t progress in terms of results.
I think we have both a strategy and an ambition. It's about buying cheap and selling for more but you're (deliberately?) missing out a vital aspect in order to generate funds within FFP to improve the squad over time. It's also about improving the coaching and development structures, and open the pathway to attract players like Poku or Leon Scarlette who will be our future.
Other clubs provide business models and reference points that work for them, which you can study and take best practice from. Doesn’t mean they will work for you but it’s a starting point.
Is this corporate-speak???
Whilst trusting Beale may have been proven wrong in the long run, he did actually get us to the top of the championship at one brief point. Do I want him (or similar) back ? No, I don’t but you can’t say that approach was less successful if you measure success by results.
Beale successful? Seriously? You're saying that to a QPR fan? I'd say he was a disaster even if we were at the top for a nano-second. The fall out was a crocked Chris Willock, bringing him back too early from injury, a load of mercenary loans who lost interest sharpish, a kneejerk replacement manager cos we were stuffed.in October but at least we had that week at the top... As I say I don't measure success purely by results although they're extremely important, you do. I also judge the overall direction of progress.
What I originally commented on was that we should not blindly trust an unproven process at QPR and I maintain that. I would add a further word of warning that you shouldn’t trust someone that has never done this before to provide said processes anymore than you should trust Beale.
What you originally commented on was an invented scenario in which we lost all our first ten matches and got cross about it. As for unproven processes any process is unproven before it's tried for the first time by definition. But as I said previously it's an approach that's been successful in other clubs. Continuing with buying old players to get us out of trouble and blowing any budget for younger developing players is the Austin/Johanssen second seasoon approach. While I remain concerned we're undercooked I also don't want to race back to that in the pursuit of your hallowed (short-term) results. In short I'm concerned but the whole thing is a lot more nuanced than your approach if we want long term success.
Whether Nourry is the right person is up for debate. I don't think there's enough evidence yet either way. | | | |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 04:53 - Aug 7 with 895 views | nix |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 21:12 - Aug 6 by Lblock |
I'm not whipping up anger......... I'm always angry
I'd certainly not expect us to start this season like the last two.
Christ I hope not!
I'm merely saying that it will get a bit fruity if we're playing without a recognised striker and lose the two home games v PNE and Charlton.
Rightly so in my book.
It does my head in every season why the transfer window runs 4 weeks into the season and, why, for the love of Christ, clubs seem to leave it until Sky's w@nkathon last day to make additions etc.
Get a squad pre-season and work it. |
I agree
and you weren't the one whipping up anger. | | | |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 07:45 - Aug 7 with 748 views | JamesB1979 |
I liked our recruitment over the summer and I also like the aim to get the squad much younger, develop and sell. That’s the priority. We do need a left back, cover central mid and at least 1 more striker. But I was reasonably happy.
But now if our recruitment has led to the new manager having to select from the group of players in the training video for our first match, then our recruitment hasn’t worked. It’s a vital game and to have so many players out is absolutely ridiculous. |  | | |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 08:01 - Aug 7 with 702 views | Rsole |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 04:49 - Aug 7 by nix |
If you really want to be objective, you’d have to compare results over recruitment.
That might be your approach. It's not mine and I think it's that short-term approach that's got us into trouble in the past. Of course results are important, vital , but not the only metric to assess how we're doing as a club. There has to be an overall assessment including the personnel, general professionalism, recruitment AND development.
Is this years recruitment better or worse than previous years - we’ll find out in the coming months when we see those results and league position
Again with the short-termism. Some of the recruiting is at DS level. How can you judge that over the next few months? Obviously getting some results now is really important but if we're lower mid-table in a couple of months time that would be progress over the last two seasons, where we were in the relegation places.
Most successful strategies have a vision and a more importantly, some ambition. We don’t have either of those available in the public domain. Buy cheap and sell for more is no better than commodity trading if the club doesn’t progress in terms of results.
I think we have both a strategy and an ambition. It's about buying cheap and selling for more but you're (deliberately?) missing out a vital aspect in order to generate funds within FFP to improve the squad over time. It's also about improving the coaching and development structures, and open the pathway to attract players like Poku or Leon Scarlette who will be our future.
Other clubs provide business models and reference points that work for them, which you can study and take best practice from. Doesn’t mean they will work for you but it’s a starting point.
Is this corporate-speak???
Whilst trusting Beale may have been proven wrong in the long run, he did actually get us to the top of the championship at one brief point. Do I want him (or similar) back ? No, I don’t but you can’t say that approach was less successful if you measure success by results.
Beale successful? Seriously? You're saying that to a QPR fan? I'd say he was a disaster even if we were at the top for a nano-second. The fall out was a crocked Chris Willock, bringing him back too early from injury, a load of mercenary loans who lost interest sharpish, a kneejerk replacement manager cos we were stuffed.in October but at least we had that week at the top... As I say I don't measure success purely by results although they're extremely important, you do. I also judge the overall direction of progress.
What I originally commented on was that we should not blindly trust an unproven process at QPR and I maintain that. I would add a further word of warning that you shouldn’t trust someone that has never done this before to provide said processes anymore than you should trust Beale.
What you originally commented on was an invented scenario in which we lost all our first ten matches and got cross about it. As for unproven processes any process is unproven before it's tried for the first time by definition. But as I said previously it's an approach that's been successful in other clubs. Continuing with buying old players to get us out of trouble and blowing any budget for younger developing players is the Austin/Johanssen second seasoon approach. While I remain concerned we're undercooked I also don't want to race back to that in the pursuit of your hallowed (short-term) results. In short I'm concerned but the whole thing is a lot more nuanced than your approach if we want long term success.
Whether Nourry is the right person is up for debate. I don't think there's enough evidence yet either way. |
As you point out, we have different views on what is going on and what the likely outcome is, as fans do.
In some cases, i hope you are right and it all works out in the best possible way for the club, but I have serious concerns and doubts that it will, which is what i raised in my initial comments about trusting the process.
We will see how all plays out over the course of the season and into the next, starting on Saturday. I hope we are better prepared for that game, that we win and win well, with a solid performance.
I hope the new players bed in to a system/formation that works under this coach and we continue to develop them into assets for the club. I hope we find a striker that will start and score regularly enough to put us in a position where we can win games.
If that fits into a comprehensive and consistent strategy, that covers all of the aspects the club requires to be successful, then even better. I think we'd all be delighted.
Do I think all these things will happen ? Unlikely, but I'd settle for just a few of these improvements coming off and for us to break the pattern of inconsistency and injuries, avoiding the pressure of another relegation threat.
As for short-term views, the start this year may well determine the rest of the season and the level of pressure everyone is under. It's very easy to say that the model/strategy/process is working until something breaks and adversity kicks in, as it did last year.
That's when experience and decision making under pressure really matter and I'm yet to be convinced that we have those attributes in the management of the club - but again, I would love to proven wrong. | |
| Those possessed by devils, try and keep them under control a bit, can't you ?
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| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 09:17 - Aug 7 with 645 views | nix |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 08:01 - Aug 7 by Rsole |
As you point out, we have different views on what is going on and what the likely outcome is, as fans do.
In some cases, i hope you are right and it all works out in the best possible way for the club, but I have serious concerns and doubts that it will, which is what i raised in my initial comments about trusting the process.
We will see how all plays out over the course of the season and into the next, starting on Saturday. I hope we are better prepared for that game, that we win and win well, with a solid performance.
I hope the new players bed in to a system/formation that works under this coach and we continue to develop them into assets for the club. I hope we find a striker that will start and score regularly enough to put us in a position where we can win games.
If that fits into a comprehensive and consistent strategy, that covers all of the aspects the club requires to be successful, then even better. I think we'd all be delighted.
Do I think all these things will happen ? Unlikely, but I'd settle for just a few of these improvements coming off and for us to break the pattern of inconsistency and injuries, avoiding the pressure of another relegation threat.
As for short-term views, the start this year may well determine the rest of the season and the level of pressure everyone is under. It's very easy to say that the model/strategy/process is working until something breaks and adversity kicks in, as it did last year.
That's when experience and decision making under pressure really matter and I'm yet to be convinced that we have those attributes in the management of the club - but again, I would love to proven wrong. |
Once again, I'm not saying what you say I'm saying. I don't know what the outcome will be. That's the whole point neither of us do and why I took issue with your original post.
It's the rushing to judgement based on incomplete evidence I object to.
I hope we win too but I don't want one match to be evidence either way. Having concerns and doubts is perfectly valid. Inventing scenarios and arguing a case as if they've already happened less so.
What I do think is there are signs of a more consistent and coherent strategy than hitherto with changes ih the DS, the introduction of Steve Bould, having two similar managers rather than lurching from Ian Holloway to Steve McClaren or from Beale to Critchley to Ainsworth - where's the continuity there?
It may be easy to say in error the model is working based on short term factors like results in a few games - the Beale experiment showed that - but also easy to say it isn't if we lose a couple of matches.
I don't know either if we've got the management of the club right. I do think the Board are going in a better direction with more emphasis on building long term with the amazing training ground a significant step forward. As I have repeatedly said I'm concerned we're undercooked this season. I do think the next few weeks are important just not only about results but also the gaps in the squad we plug.
But we all want a positive season so can agree on that! | | | |
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| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 11:37 - Aug 7 with 527 views | derbyhoop |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 19:51 - Aug 6 by nix |
We have potentially brought in more goals than last season with Poku and Burrell. We've got more pace in the squad to stretch defences too. We've also got a fit Chair who normally contributes 5-6 a season. Last season ten out of the 21 teams that weren't relegated scored the same or fewer.
It's not about scapegoting the coach and getting a better one who picks better. It's about developing a style where you slot a new coach in who can work with the existing players.
You might not choose to compare past recruitment but I think to most objective people it's the only way to assess progression.
How do you prove a process without trying it? I would also say that it is something tried by other clubs like Brentford or Brighton where the recruitment isn't primarily driven by the manager. Where we have done the opposite like with Beale it wasn't exactly great. Also processes feed into an overall strategy.
But really if you want to focus on an invented scenario and be angry about it, I'm not going to question it any more. |
I can't believe how much negativity there is, going into the season.
Is Mbengue an upgrade on Fox?
Is Larkeche miles worse than Paal?
Are Varane and Madsen (and Celar?) going to be better with a year of Championship football under their belts?
Is Poku an upgrade on Smyth?
Are Chair and Dembele fit to start the season?
Can any of the youngsters, incl 3 Aussies, earn a place in the first team squad.
Does Burrell add pace to a pedestrian front line?
Sure, it's not going to be perfect. It never will be on our budget.
Colback will be a miss, should anything happen to Varane or Field.
The injuries, particularly the strike force are a worry, already.
Overall, though, I think we're a little stronger than last season. Let's reserve judgement for 10-12 games before getting suicidal. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 12:47 - Aug 7 with 412 views | nix |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 11:37 - Aug 7 by derbyhoop |
I can't believe how much negativity there is, going into the season.
Is Mbengue an upgrade on Fox?
Is Larkeche miles worse than Paal?
Are Varane and Madsen (and Celar?) going to be better with a year of Championship football under their belts?
Is Poku an upgrade on Smyth?
Are Chair and Dembele fit to start the season?
Can any of the youngsters, incl 3 Aussies, earn a place in the first team squad.
Does Burrell add pace to a pedestrian front line?
Sure, it's not going to be perfect. It never will be on our budget.
Colback will be a miss, should anything happen to Varane or Field.
The injuries, particularly the strike force are a worry, already.
Overall, though, I think we're a little stronger than last season. Let's reserve judgement for 10-12 games before getting suicidal. |
Two seasons ago to start the season we had back five of :Begovic, Kakay, Fox, Gubbins and Paal; a midfield of Dozzell and Field; attack of Smyth, Chair, Dykes and Kelman (pre-L Orient)
Surely it's less scary now, even with the injuries. It seems like an upgrade now to that squad. | | | |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 13:03 - Aug 7 with 379 views | francisbowles |
Lyndon in on loan? | | | |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 15:47 - Aug 7 with 231 views | TheChef |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 11:37 - Aug 7 by derbyhoop |
I can't believe how much negativity there is, going into the season.
Is Mbengue an upgrade on Fox?
Is Larkeche miles worse than Paal?
Are Varane and Madsen (and Celar?) going to be better with a year of Championship football under their belts?
Is Poku an upgrade on Smyth?
Are Chair and Dembele fit to start the season?
Can any of the youngsters, incl 3 Aussies, earn a place in the first team squad.
Does Burrell add pace to a pedestrian front line?
Sure, it's not going to be perfect. It never will be on our budget.
Colback will be a miss, should anything happen to Varane or Field.
The injuries, particularly the strike force are a worry, already.
Overall, though, I think we're a little stronger than last season. Let's reserve judgement for 10-12 games before getting suicidal. |
Yeah I find it a little bit odd how some are feeling really negative about this season (and there are a few who can't separate that from their dislike of Nourry).
I mean look at where we were with Ainsworth before that first game against Watford, and clearly there were problems in terms of personnel. I don't think it's any way as bad as that now.
I have some concerns but I'm still hopeful. Reading Clive's predictions you can forget how much dross there is in this league - it's a goat rodeo and as long as you can compete physically and earn the right to play, then you should be OK. IF we can manage that more often than not, then 16th or whatever, here we come.
Let's see where we are after ten games / end of October and see if the naysayers are right. |  |
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| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 16:55 - Aug 7 with 109 views | hantssi |
Average of 10 goals a season over the last 3 seasons for a 31 year old! | | | |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 17:16 - Aug 7 with 74 views | Myke |
| Rest of the Championship thread 25/26 on 16:55 - Aug 7 by hantssi |
Average of 10 goals a season over the last 3 seasons for a 31 year old! |
Bite your hand off for a ten goal striker this minute | | | |
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